Edge @ Midtown

[mcca7596]

Kerry, I only wish I had the means to develop one myself lol, I was just asking hypothetically. You're right though, I suppose any vacant lot would be good...

City, the Osler would be good, but it is still on track to be apartments I believe.

[Larry OKC]

Agreed. It's bad enough we have one Legacy. Anyone who can alter their initial renderings is untrustworthy, to me. I'd like to see Marva's project built this time. I like Wiggin's design, if we're sure he's got money. Design wise, those would be my choices. The other two are pretty meh, to me.

Hmmm, and we have the altered renderings on the Aloft hotel. I know I am in the minority on this one, but I perferred the original renderings.

[Larry OKC]

The extension of Classen Drive was proposed several years ago and supposedly financed by a general obligation bond. Have no idea about the current status.

This extension has been canceled because the land cost (primarily the dry cleaner location) shot thru the roof. It would have been nice.

If it was a listed project in the GO bond, aren't they required by law to proceed with the stated project??? Unless it was an "unlisted" project, those funds are not supposed to be discretionary but dedicated. If costs went through the roof, the City has eminent domain at its disposal which would keep the cost within reason???

[Architect2010]

Hmmm, and we have the altered renderings on the Aloft hotel. I know I am in the minority on this one, but I perferred the original renderings.

That's not even remotely the same. The renderings may have changed on the Aloft, but the change has resulted in an equally impressive design as the first ones implied; subject to opinion of course. There is no discussing at all however, that the Legacy renderings were very promising and then we ended up with something dramatically less in design and material.

[BoulderSooner]

If it was a listed project in the GO bond, aren't they required by law to proceed with the stated project??? Unless it was an "unlisted" project, those funds are not supposed to be discretionary but dedicated. If costs went through the roof, the City has eminent domain at its disposal which would keep the cost within reason???

my thoughts as well Larry

[Rover]

Just curious, does Ellard have experience developing on this scale? Who is her development team and what experience do they have? If the only thing she's done is the Sieber, that is a pretty small project vs. this kind of project. I don't mean to imply she isn't capable, but just wondering what her and her team's real credentials are. She has many supporters on this site and I am wondering if it is merited. I personally think here project composition is good, but the design looks very institutional.

I am also curious why no one has commented at the apparent finishes of stucco or fake stucco. It has been a big issue previously by Ellard's design is given a pass?

[Kerry]

Kerry, I only wish I had the means to develop one myself lol, I was just asking hypothetically. You're right though, I suppose any vacant lot would be good...

Maybe we need to form an OKCTALK real-estate development company. We have lawyers, engineers, construction professional, land owners, real-estate experts, architects, and willing tennants. Start small and work our way up.

[Pete]

Ellard was one of the original partners of The Hill. Not sure about her partners on this project.

She has been on the board for Preservation Oklahoma for years and is an officer in the Midtown Association. She also lives very nearby this property in Heritage Hills.

Generally, people trust her because 1) she seems to understand the needs in this area of town; 2) loves Oklahoma City and has done a lot for it that hasn't involved her making money and 3) seems to put quality first.

As far as her project being stucco, it's hard to tell from the renderings. EIFS/stucco isn't necessarily evil if it's done correctly (Level Apartments and the new Aloft have not drawn much criticism) and I think anyone that knows Marva knows she does things right.

[benman]

Just curious, does Ellard have experience developing on this scale? Who is her development team and what experience do they have? If the only thing she's done is the Sieber, that is a pretty small project vs. this kind of project. I don't mean to imply she isn't capable, but just wondering what her and her team's real credentials are. She has many supporters on this site and I am wondering if it is merited. I personally think here project composition is good, but the design looks very institutional.

I am also curious why no one has commented at the apparent finishes of stucco or fake stucco. It has been a big issue previously by Ellard's design is given a pass?

I have yet to understand the big problem with using stucco as an exterior building material? It seems like its much more of a buzzword than anything, as most people do not understand it.
EIFS is basically the same thing as stucco and most people cannot tell the difference unless they physically touch it. Obviously stucco is a little better. Theres tons of really cool buildings all over the world that use stucco. As I said, I think they are both buzzwords people use without really knowing what it is. I never hear any mention of faux stone that is commonly used either. Probably because nobody notices it... Its all in the design whether or not a building looks cheap and cookie cutter.

[MIKELS129]

In talking to Marva I do not believe there is any stucco. She mentioned thin stone and brick.
Yes her team has extensive development experience.

[betts]

I have yet to understand the big problem with using stucco as an exterior building material? It seems like its much more of a buzzword than anything, as most people do not understand it.
EIFS is basically the same thing as stucco and most people cannot tell the difference unless they physically touch it. Obviously stucco is a little better. Theres tons of really cool buildings all over the world that use stucco. As I said, I think they are both buzzwords people use without really knowing what it is. I never hear any mention of faux stone that is commonly used either. Probably because nobody notices it... Its all in the design whether or not a building looks cheap and cookie cutter.

I don't think anyone has a problem with stucco as a building material. Done properly, it is a very durable exterior material. EIFS, in my opinion, does not hold up well. If you look at buildings that are 10 to 20 years old constructed of EIFS, they don't age well, especially in the lighter colors builders seem to favor. Brick is my personal favorite, because it looks as good old as new.

[Rover]

In talking to Marva I do not believe there is any stucco. She mentioned thin stone and brick.
Yes her team has extensive development experience.

So what are some of the relevant or similar projects her team has direct leadership experience with the development? If you can name them we can view them.

Thanks.

[Kerry]

In talking to Marva I do not believe there is any stucco. She mentioned thin stone and brick.
Yes her team has extensive development experience.

Translation: faux

[HOT ROD]

My Rankings: POSITIVES in Bold, NEGATIVES in Red.

1) Best design however I agree about the reservations mentioned by others: bait and switch, initial rendering already doesn't match the 'written' proposal (6 storey but 4 storey shown. ...), pitched roof, past 'failure' to implement Legacy to initial proposal/design. However, this is still the most urban and best capitalizes the Mercy site and that is why I rank it first. And excellent VALUE request for TIF.

We should put in a condition on the final permit that if there is a change from the written proposal/dates that it could be immediately disqualified with PENALTY! I think that should stop this BS and 'developers' looking to use OKC for their 'starts'.

• Cornerstone Development (The Edge)
Led by Mike Henderson and Gary Brooks
Proposal: Six stories, includes a mix of retail, with a rooftop terrace and dog park, 500-space garage, featuring 250 rental units with monthly rates between $735 and $1,395.
Cost: $28,219,041
Proposal land purchase: $850,000
Requested tax increment financing assistance: $1.5 million

2) This would be ranked higher if it were 6+ storeys and 200+ units. I LOVE the underground garage treatment. The developer seems to be top knotch as people have mentioned, BUT I honestly like this development in a different area - closer to the Federal Building/CBD (due to the hotel) and still want to see it at 6+ floors (particularly the hotel portion).

• Mercy Redevelopers
Led by Marva Ellard
Proposal: Four stories, includes a mix of retail, with a gym, pool, rooftop terrace, underground 300-space garage, featuring 150 rental units.
Cost: $31,310,000
Proposed land purchase: $951,949
Requested tax increment financing assistance: $2.2 million

3) As others have noted, this is not particularly impressive but it is arguably the most urban. Does seem to be lacking and should be taller than 5 storeys for the cost. ...

There are other significant downsides: cost way too much and request way too much TIFF, retail/restaurant seems ambiguous, Wiggins had the site before and did nothing; we could create a similar 'disqualification' amendment like what I proposed for Henderson so the site doesn't 'sit' or the project isn't switched.

I would like to see this (as designed) probably at another 'smaller' site nearby.

• Wiggin Properties
Led by Chuck Wiggin
Proposal: Five-story building with 24,000 square feet for restaurants and retail, a 375-car garage, featuring 200 rental units with monthly rates between $600 and $1,900.
Cost: $42,631,596
Proposed land purchase: $1 million
Requested tax increment financing assistance: $3.5 million

..

..


4) Suburban. Nice, but not for downtown. ... Enough said. No TIFF and seems to be reasonable cost. .. Put it in 63rd/Chesapeake. ...

• GTH (The Connection)
Led by Richard and Stephen Tanenbaum
Proposal: Four-story building featuring 268 rental units with pool and courtyard.
Cost: $20,408,124
Proposed land purchase: $557,568

...


...


...


5) This should be considered for the suburbs. .... This is not a solid DOWNTOWN development, does he doubt the downtown market or is he an elementary developer with no capital/cash? Downtown is way past Deep Deuce Apartments, so there is no reason for the 'phased' and 'considerations'.

We aren't a test market. I would deny it outright without consideration, let MWC or Edmond or the Southside have it. ...
[QUOTE=Pete Brzycki;411428]

• Home Creations
Led by Jamal Farzaneh
Proposal: (Two options, both to be built in two phases with the second phase “subject to certain factors”). Option one: 160 residential units, 20 percent rental, 80 percent for sale, with 68,000 square feet set for office or commercial tenants and an underground 220-space garage. Option two: 64 rental and 16 for-sale units with 18,000 square feet set for office space, half rental, half for-sale, 120 parking spaces.
Cost: Option one, first phase $11,434,000, second phase, $7,690,000. Option two, first phase $6,490,000, second phase $5,740,000.
Proposed land purchase: $552,000
Requested tax increment financing assistance: none listed

[city]

3 to 4 stories is the new design ordinance height restriction for Midtown. Maybe that will be waived but I am sure Marva and Tanenbaum knew that and the others did not.

[Doug Loudenback]

Since we are really talking preliminary opinions here, and without a heck of a lot of data or, for that matter, design appearance, either, and no floor plans, schematics, or site plans at all, my preliminary thoughts are:

(1) I'd toss out 3 from the get-go: Henderson & Wiggin based on unsatisfactory previous experiences (need I be more specific?) and Home Creations whose design looks like it belongs in Edmond, not to mention that I wholly distrust having "phases," the second of which may never get done.

(2) For me, that leaves 2: Ellard's & Tanenbaum's. I think that both have good track records but I very much appreciate Marva Ellard's personal devotion to historic preservation issues and I am more than impressed with her great job on the Sieber, and those qualities give her a personal edge over Tanenbaum with me. However, I can't tell from Ellard's image what the overall design might be like and I'd want to see that before making my vote between these two. I do like Tanenbaum's image and I think he did a fine job with the Wards building. I give him no design points on the Park Harvey but no demerits either since design restrictions inhibited much if any room for design creativity. As far as I know, his Citizens Tower makeover has gone well, but, again, I give no plus or minus points for design ... it is basically, what it was. Tanenbaum's "plus" for me is that he appears to move quickly and get the job done quickly. I have to disagree with you, Hot Rod, about Tanenbaum's design being suburban. Actually, the design reminds me of the original Hadden Hall, shown below in 1912 and I think that it blends in well with the time period that many surrounding structures were built, both north and south of NW 13th.





The number of rental units isn't a big deal with me ... Ellards' 150 compared to Tanenbaum's 268, particularly when noting that Ellard's proposal includes more features (a mix of retail, with a gym, pool, rooftop terrace, underground 300-space garage) than does Tanenbaum's (pool and courtyard). Plus, there are several other midtown areas for this type of development, as Pete pointed out so very well. All eggs do not have to be in one basket.

I'll pass on voting further until more is presented on both the Ellard & Tanenbaum proposals.

[Kerry]

Classen and Lincoln would look really good with a lot of these.

[HOT ROD]

ok, how about semi-suburban, then. ....



It's not bad, I just think we should demand better for downtown and let this type of development go elsewhere in the 'outer' inner-city, such as Kerry mentions and NOT anything below 13th Street were we need to be pushing mid-rise, density, build-to-property line, flat roofs, mixed-use.

In my opinion, we should be pushing for mid-rise density starting at 30th street or 23rd, but I'd settle for 13th street for now.

[Urban Pioneer]

The extension of Classen Drive was proposed several years ago and supposedly financed by a general obligation bond. Have no idea about the current status.

It is proceeding forward. This is one major project that affected our streetcar routing. We looked into it extensively. It will be done when the bonds are let.

So my guess, maybe 3-5 years? It sounds a though city staff is pretty distracted right now. lol

[Urban Pioneer]

This extension has been canceled because the land cost (primarily the dry cleaner location) shot thru the roof. It would have been nice.

If it has, then it is new news. It was brought back up by the Planning Director at one of our Alternatives Analysis meetings recently. Do you have some information reference? Not doubting the dry cleaner story about costs. Those things are usually Brownfields and that is a functioning business.

[Urban Pioneer]

I like the bigger Cornerstone project a lot. Dislike the smaller Cornerstone project tremendously. Wiggin's looks alright, Home Creations is interesting... I wonder if they might be interested in some other blocks? That would be very appropriate for some of the blocks further west in Mid-town.

Is there a reference location for more information on the projects? Particularly more renderings than just one vantage point of each one.

[Kerry]

3 to 4 stories is the new design ordinance height restriction for Midtown. Maybe that will be waived but I am sure Marva and Tanenbaum knew that and the others did not.

The previous "winner" of this site was 8 stories. When did the new height restrictions take effect?

http://www.downtownokc.com/Default.a...1&newsid637=53&

[mcca7596]

New renderings of Marva Ellard's proposal on OKC Central:

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...pers-030711-2/

[Kerry]

It looks like 3 levels of parking. In the summary it says underground parking but in the site plan 2/3 of the parking is above ground. I don't really care for the interior drive either. It serves no purpose what so ever. It doesn't have parking and it doesn't lead to parking.

[Doug Loudenback]

New renderings of Marva Ellard's proposal on OKC Central:

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...pers-030711-2/

Thanks for that link. Here are the images contained in the PDF file, pages 1 through 11, complete.

Page 1 - Interior grounds looking southwesterly


Page 2 - Street level - includes courtyard, middle interior parking level, gym & day care


Page 3 - 2nd story - includes 2 laundries, upper parking level, gym & day care


Page 4 - 3rd story - includes 2 laundries, 2 storage areas, pool & clubhouse


Page 5 - 4th story - includes some roof decks; open view of the pool area and the courtyard


Page 6 - Basement - includes lower parking level


Page 7 - this one puzzles me - would have to be Walker looking west or Dewey looking east,
but does not match with either page 10 or page 11 showing those views


Page 8 - Looking north from NW 12th Street


Page 9 - Looking south from NW 13th Street


Page 10 - Looking east from Dewey


Page 11 - Looking west from Walker


This looks very good to me. I look forward to seeing similar detail about the other proposals, particularly Tanenbaum's.