Paycom Center (formerly Chesapeake Arena)

[scottk]

No sense having 2 18,000 seat arenas side by side.

We made two arenas work side by side for 20 years. I think if Paycom Center can be repurposed into part of the convention center and revamped into a nice concert venue or similar. Structurally the building is sound and has modern amenities that the Myriad/COX never had.

[Dob Hooligan]

Because the arenas aren't historically significant/interesting like the other buildings are, they're fairly generic?

Reminds me of the John Huston line in Chinatown

"Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."

[Laramie]

Doubt if you will see anything over $400 million for a new arena on city-owned property with the preferred Cox site as the most feasible location:

Parking: Cox Convention Center 950, Convention Center Parking Garage 1,106,
Santa Fe Garage Parking 1,500, Century Center Parking 779, Main Street Parking 1,150
Arts District Parking 801, Metro Parking Garage 986, BOK Parking Garage 1,500
Devon Parking Garage 2721. Total in largest garages 11,493

The lease with Prairie Surf Media is for five years with three one-year extension options. It calls for stepped-up lease payments from Prairie Surf starting at $150,000 for the first and second years, $300,000 for the third year, $450,000 for the fourth year, $600,000 for the fifth year, and $825,000 plus all utility costs in excess of $1.1 million for each annual extension option.--Oklahoman - Lackmeyer, December 9, 2020

Source: https://www.oklahoman.com/story/busi...ess/315480007/

October 2022 is the initial date for the discussion to begin.

[BDP]

The environmental costs of discarding mega expensive and relatively new civic investments. The incomparable Myriad is barely 50 years old and covers multiple blocks in the city core, yet we are all too happy to bulldoze it and will probably do the same with Paycom Arena in less than 10 years. No sense having 2 18,000 seat arenas side by side.

The historical preservation angle...

Hmmm... The Pei Plan.

That's an interesting factor in this I hadn't thought of. Is there anything of value left from that other than the Myriad or 'the re-imagined multiple times' concourse?

It resulted mostly in parking lots netted from torn down structures, but the myriad convention center did get built. Is there anything else left that actually got built?

[Plutonic Panda]

Yeah, but compared to "pie in the sky" proposals, everything is "value engineered".

The biggest MAPS voters have approved was MAPS 4 with a $978 million projected budget. That was about a 25% increase over MAPS 3. So, if a MAPS 5 had the same increase in projected budget, it would be in the $1.2 to $1.3 billion range.

Eventually, those that decide what projects will be used to sell MAPS 5 to the voters will have to work within a budget, while factoring the opportunity costs (both financially and politically) relative to each project on the list and to those NOT on the list.

Dreaming about pie in the sky projects is fun, for sure. Just like dreaming about what you'd do if you won the lottery is fun, but what are the odds of winning the lottery, again?

So, anyone can dream all they want, but dreaming has no budget. I would have assumed everyone understands that, so it's strange to me that anyone would get upset by anyone pointing that out.

Agreed on all points. I do like the idea of investing more in the performing arts in OKC though.

[BDP]

Agreed on all points. I do like the idea of investing more in the performing arts in OKC though.

I do too, for sure.

Where would you start, though?

Investing more in the performers (artists) or in the venue in which they perform?

[chestercheetah]

Remember the old Populous/GSB concepts for the Convention Center? It would be cool if the new arena had a Modern Oklahoma vibe like this.

[Laramie]

Remember the old Populous/GSB concepts for the Convention Center? It would be cool if the new arena had a Modern Oklahoma vibe like this.

Really like this because it reflects that blend Oklahoma rose rock and red clay.

[Bill Robertson]

Really like this because it reflects that blend Oklahoma rose rock and red clay.

I love it too. Put the steep seating in there like you posted a picture of a few pages ago and it would be great.

[BDP]

I know it isn't performing arts, but I'd be ok with a new amphitheater. Like, the one is Dallas (near the fair) or Cynthia Woods in the Woodlands. We get passed over so many times because the Zoo either sucks at getting shows, doesn't try, or isn't big enough.

Zoo Amp is about 7k capacity I think. They typically get a couple of shows a year that I might be interested in, but I agree that it's probably underused. I think the one in Dallas (formally the Starplex / Schmirnoff (?)) is about 20k.

I always thought a larger amphitheater on the river would be cool and, if big enough, wouldn't really compete with the Zoo Amp. If it could be next to scissortail and integrated into the park, that would nice. I think we were close to getting one via private investment at one point, which may be why I don't think it became part of a MAPS proposal. At this point, though, I think we're closer to a multi-use stadium that may be able to fill the role of outdoor concert venue in the downtown area. Having another one may just saturate the market.

[chssooner]

Zoo Amp is about 7k capacity I think. They typically get a couple of shows a year that I might be interested in, but I agree that it's probably underused. I think the one in Dallas (formally the Starplex / Schmirnoff (?)) is about 20k.

I always though a larger amphitheater on the river would be cool and, if big enough, wouldn't really compete with the Zoo Amp. If it could be next to scissortail and integrated into the park, that would nice. I think we were close to getting one via private investment at one point, which may be why I don't think it became part of a MAPS proposal. At this point, though, I think we're closer to a multi-use stadium that may be able to fill the role of outdoor concert venue in the downtown area. Having another one may just saturate the market.

I think we could kill the Zoo Amp if we had another one, and then add on to the Zoo more.

[Plutonic Panda]

I do too, for sure.

Where would you start, though?

Investing more in the performers (artists) or in the venue in which they perform?

It seems to me we’d have to build up our performers before we could really invest big bucks in a new facility. It’d be like building a massive world class museum with no art pieces. So yeah I see what you mean. We need more philanthropists like Kaiser in Tulsa.

[Timshel]

Agree that the 2,500 we currently have is more than sufficient size wise.

Based on a quick Google search, there's not a single theatre in the world that has even 4,000 seats, much less 8,000. The MET is 3,900 and is the largest room in the world. The entirety of Lincoln Center is a little over 10,000 with 6 theaters (the MET, 2 approx 2,700, and 2 approx. 1000, plus a few smaller ones).

The entire capacity of the Sydney Opera House is 5,700 over six rooms, with the only two over 550 seats being 2,679 and 1,507.

The Bolshoi has a capacity of 1,740.

The largest PAC under one roof in the world in Taiwan has a 2,236 seat opera house, 1,981 seat concert hall, 1,210 seat play house, and 434 seat hall.

The Busan Opera House, a proposal for which was previously linked to (and which I agree does look awesome - but which is not the design that was actually selected) has a capacity of around 2,300.

To the extent the Civic Center isn't world class, it does not seem like capacity is the reason. I've regularly patronized all sorts of different shows at the Civic Center for decades and while I think certain groups do things very well, providing world-class opera, symphony, theatre, ballet, etc. requires a critical mass of people willing to go to and fund such productions. Though it's vastly better than it was probably even 10 years ago, I'd love to say we're there culturally as a city but I'm not sure that's the case or will be for some time (as much as I want to think otherwise).

[Laramie]

Amway Center, Orlando, FL

Opened October 1, 2010
Construction cost: $480 million
NBA seating capacity: 18,846
876,000 SF

What would be the construction cost to build a similar size arena in Oklahoma City on city-owned land. Amyway Center located in Downtown Orlando. The arena itself cost around $380 million, with an additional $100 million for land and infrastructure, for a total cost of $480 million (as of March 8, 2011 the arena was expected to be within $10 million of the estimated cost.

Wikiwand: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amway_Center

[Laramie]

[chssooner]

I like those arena ideas, just don't know if we could get any developers behind building like this, given how cheap land is, thus reducing the need to build up. I wouldn't mind something like the Winnipeg Arena. Having a restaurant attached would be great, but as we saw with Coaches at the ballpark, it doesn't always work.

[Laramie]

Good points, chssooner.

Surface parking, he did a number on that idea.

Restaurants, most friends I know want to go away from the arena/stadium to a different location.

[HFAA Alum]

Good points, chssooner.

Surface parking, he did a number on that idea.

Restaurants, most friends I know want to go away from the arena/stadium to a different location.

Probably because gameday has the highest traffic of all days and most vendors around an arena will keep their prices high as hell just because of proximity. But in terms of a restaurant, it can be a logistical nightmare if they're so close in proximity to the sports stadium as opposed to being away from it.

If the Paycom Center took a queue from the Mercedez Benz Stadium in Atlanta, keep their food prices reasonable and low, you would see commercial success. But again, most business near sports stadiums like to hike their prices based on proximity to the action. That's why beer can be $5 for a small cup, $6.50 for a medium, and $7.95 for a large (and the large drink in volume will still fit in a small cup in this business). They know you're willing to spend money to get something to bite on while you're at the game. Might as well up the costs for that convenience.

[Bill Robertson]

Probably because gameday has the highest traffic of all days and most vendors around an arena will keep their prices high as hell just because of proximity. But in terms of a restaurant, it can be a logistical nightmare if they're so close in proximity to the sports stadium as opposed to being away from it.

If the Paycom Center took a queue from the Mercedez Benz Stadium in Atlanta, keep their food prices reasonable and low, you would see commercial success. But again, most business near sports stadiums like to hike their prices based on proximity to the action. That's why beer can be $5 for a small cup, $6.50 for a medium, and $7.95 for a large (and the large drink in volume will still fit in a small cup in this business). They know you're willing to spend money to get something to bite on while you're at the game. Might as well up the costs for that convenience.

We went to the restaurant in the arena a handful of times. I don't recall it being much if any more than similar places. But we usually went somewhere else like Laramie said just because we have places we like.

[Laramie]

NBA Basketball Capacity - 20,356

Capital One Arena (Verizon Center 1997)
106 suites, Tour spaces suites https://www.capitalonearenasuites.com/tour-spaces
Capital Once Center 1,020,000 square feet vs. Paycom Center 581,000 square feet
Broke ground: October 18, 1995
Opened: December 2, 1997
Construction cost: US$260 million/land acquisition $119 million (difference $141 million)
(US$480 million in 2022 dollars)

What would it cost to build an arena of similar size on the former Cox Convention Center site; $141 million is worth $263 million
today.

Would estimate that at the inflation rate we're probably looking at $350 million total construction cost on city owned land in 2027 with a 2029-30 opening date. All of this could fit on the Cox CC site with room for the city to sell excess space.

Request that the Thunder (Anchor tenant) chip in half or all of the naming rights revenue toward building the new arena.

Inflation calculator instrument: https://www.inflationtool.com/us-dol...equency=yearly

An arena of this size and magnitude would attract more DT hotels and land more future bids for a number of NCAA events.

What are your thoughts on a similar blueprint arena being built in the OKC Cox 4 sq block site on city-owned land.

[Laramie]

New arena? OKC’s relationship with the Thunder faces an expensive test

Link: https://nondoc.com/2022/07/26/okc-th...ussion-starts/
Jim Traber Afternoon Sports Podcast interview with OKC Mayor David Holt: https://twitter.com/mattravis/status...sion-starts%2F

[OKC Guy]

I read the nondoc article and it seems this will be a hard sell city wide. A lot on this board want it but the same people want everything so to speak.

I’m fully against it. If they leave fine. We have a lokg term MAPS already taxed for next 9 years or thereabouts. City messed ip making MAPS 10 years vs doing focused 2 year timelines, giving ability to adjust every 2 years as city changes.

On top of adding another tax in a low cost state/city to build a new state of art facility means ticket prices would increase along with all concessions. It would price out this market.

In the article it mentions how the Thunder value increase isn’t money in bank. But to go from valuation of $350m to $1.3b is an increase of $950m. Its still a value increase and technically the owners could borrow against it as collateral if they wanted money now.

As for the team they got lucky with the original draft happened right when the team moved and that energy will never be duplicated. But even so they could mot afford to keep them as it requires the owners to go deep in lux tax, which they had a limit meaning there is a ceiling. The major cities will always buy up the top talent and OKC will stay as a “feeder” team. Meanimg we’ll draft great (Presti is good at that) but will never be able to draft to a title as grewt players will want to leave for big city teams who will go all out to win title. OKC can’t compete with that kind od money so become a feeder team even when good.

The city has grown too fast in the past 20 years and our services/roads are not even close what they need to be. We have a lot going but if we spend $500m plus to fatten up owners wallets the citizens will suffer with infrastructure. We have a large city land wise but reading this board it seems downtown focused. I listen to people in burbs and they feel completely forgotten by leadership as all big money is focsed on downtown while their standard of living suffers. A majority of people I talk to in burbs are against funding a new stadium. Quote a few mention MAPS 4 seems like a big stretch so I think they feel left out.

If Thunder leave we know due to markets we’ll never have NFL. So maybe can get soccer and NHL which might be better fits and money better spent (less tax money needed). Then have more money to improve whole city not just downtown. We would survive just fine without Thunder.

Thats 2 or 3 cents worth of my opinion. I know it won’t jibe with most who post here.

[AlvarezK]

Your a novice in both respects and its quite blatant. Detroit and Milwaukee are prime examples of having success without the need of being in a major market. As far as your “evaluation” goes all you have to do is look up is similar markets to OKC costs and public investment. And as far as being taxed I personally have no issue with it its not substantial enough for even the common individual to feel its effect and its well worth it being that its revitalized our city and has a history of having our city’s support.

[TU 'cane]

Your a novice in both respects and its quite blatant. Detroit and Milwaukee are prime examples of having success without the need of being in a major market. As far as your “evaluation” goes all you have to do is look up is similar markets to OKC costs and public investment. And as far as being taxed I personally have no issue with it its not substantial enough for even the common individual to feel its effect and its well worth it being that its revitalized our city and has a history of having our city’s support.

It would be great to have these conversations without responses like this (having pro-tax payer funded arena posters look down on other people).

Detroit's not even that great of an example. Know why? Detroit has a historical legacy. It's history goes beyond OKC's. It has/had a massive corporate base and still currently boasts a metro population of over 4 million people.
Milwaukee isn't even that great of a counter example. Milwaukee's success is a very recent phenomena with Giannis, who I think admittedly, doesn't mind Milwaukee and is just grateful to be where he's at. He's an anomaly in that respect. That could change in a few years, however, as is often the case once the luster and the polish of the trophy wears off. Everyone moves away at some point.


Other similar NBA markets (and thus, better examples) would be New Orleans, SLC, and Memphis. Go to this list and tell me how many championships you see for New Orleans, SLC, Memphis, and OKC? It reaches a point in these smaller markets where they will show flashes, but all in all the rules of the road will be the larger market teams dominating. I'd bet OKC sees a rehash of the early years where Presti drafts amazingly, OKC has a good run (with maybe a Finals appearance or two, maybe even a chip) that is then inevitably followed by a hollowing out of the team as the stars go elsewhere. Then it's years of mediocrity all over again where the local team simply becomes a novelty. An expensive one at that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_champions

Not everyone watches or enjoys basketball. And the infatuation with the posters on here of being a "big league city" and wanting the respect of other peer cities is something you won't really find with most other people. It's concentrated in spheres like this where the majority of us are interested in the developments of our cities and who are usually well traveled. That's why it may be a hard sell to others while people like you thumb your nose at them with terse (putting it nicely) responses like this.

For the record and to prevent people making assumptions: I suppose I'd consider myself a Thunder fan but I really don't watch the NBA. I've been to a few games since 2008, literally like 3 or 4 both regular season and playoff. I can live the rest of my life not going to another game but that's just me. Am I happy the Thunder are here? Sure. Do I think they can benefit OKC and the greater state as a whole? I guess. How many businesses or people have moved to OKC/OK simply because of the Thunder? Probably not as many as we want to believe.
Luckily, this discussion doesn't impact me like it does an OKCer who will have to pay for it. Nonetheless, the greater conversation of taxpayer funded arenas and this being in the state I live in intrigues me.

[Laramie]

I read the nondoc article and it seems this will be a hard sell city wide. A lot on this board want it but the same people want everything so to speak.

I’m fully against it. If they leave fine. We have a lokg term MAPS already taxed for next 9 years or thereabouts. City messed ip making MAPS 10 years vs doing focused 2 year timelines, giving ability to adjust every 2 years as city changes.

Haven't any problems with a decade of planning. MAPS 4 collections period is 8 years.

On top of adding another tax in a low cost state/city to build a new state of art facility means ticket prices would increase along with all concessions. It would price out this market.

RESPONSE: The new arena will be used by the Thunder 50% of the time. Thunder will be anchor tenant; are paying $40,000 per game/$1.64 million year rent, higher than concerts and other events

In the article it mentions how the Thunder value increase isn’t money in bank. But to go from valuation of $350m to $1.3b is an increase of $950m. Its still a value increase and technically the owners could borrow against it as collateral if they wanted money now.

RESPONSE: Thunder will not own the arena; they will be the anchor tenant. Only a handful of NBA cities have totally private funded arenas. Privately funded arenas have more autonomy over who they want to lease to or reject certain events.

As for the team they got lucky with the original draft happened right when the team moved and that energy will never be duplicated. But even so they could mot afford to keep them as it requires the owners to go deep in lux tax, which they had a limit meaning there is a ceiling. The major cities will always buy up the top talent and OKC will stay as a “feeder” team. Meanimg we’ll draft great (Presti is good at that) but will never be able to draft to a title as grewt players will want to leave for big city teams who will go all out to win title. OKC can’t compete with that kind od money so become a feeder team even when good.

RESPONSE: Better Streets, Safer City bonds passed in 2017 (10-year, $967 million bond package) Our streets & roads are being addressed.

There are plenty of cities waiting on Oklahoma City to blink. Cities like Austin, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Columbus, Jacksonville, Kansas City, Louisville, Ontario, CA, Pittsburgh, Providence, Raleigh, Richmond, San Diego, Seattle, San Jose, St. Louis, Tampa Bay & Virginia Beach-Norfolk.

The city has grown too fast in the past 20 years and our services/roads are not even close what they need to be. We have a lot going but if we spend $500m plus to fatten up owners wallets the citizens will suffer with infrastructure. We have a large city land wise but reading this board it seems downtown focused. I listen to people in burbs and they feel completely forgotten by leadership as all big money is focsed on downtown while their standard of living suffers. A majority of people I talk to in burbs are against funding a new stadium. Quote a few mention MAPS 4 seems like a big stretch so I think they feel left out.

RESPONSE: Oklahoma City is growing fast, our sales tax collections are over projections. Plans have not been revealed about funding; this will be the discussion. The larger and more educated we get, the more quality corporations and industries we will attract.

If Thunder leave we know due to markets we’ll never have NFL. So maybe can get soccer and NHL which might be better fits and money better spent (less tax money needed). Then have more money to improve whole city not just downtown. We would survive just fine without Thunder.

RESPONSE: If we fail as an NBA city, what makes you think the NHL will want to come here let alone the NFL. The NHL rejected OKC in 1997 because they recognized we couldn't built a quality competitive arena for $90 million. The NFL's last two stadiums, Las Vegas Allegiant Stadium ($1.9 billion--opened in 2020; and Los Angeles Sofi Stadium, $5.5 billion--opened in 2020.

Thats 2 or 3 cents worth of my opinion. I know it won’t jibe with most who post here.

RESPONSE: Your opinion OKC Guy matters as does the opinion of many who post on this forum. We don't want to lose an NBA franchise (Vested owners from Oklahoma's two largest MSA), They could easily cash in the franchise for $1.6 billion with serious suitors in 24 hours. Seattle would love to pluck this franchise from our city, that would give the Emerald City all four major professional franchises.