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  1. #101

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
    Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.

  2. #102

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    The greatest obstacle you are dealing with here is the liquor distributors. Want to know what they fear? The strong beer and wine making its way to the grocery stores...

  3. #103

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    The greatest obstacle you are dealing with here is the liquor distributors. Want to know what they fear? The strong beer and wine making its way to the grocery stores...
    I agree, that's what they fear.

    Which is why the change that I'm proposing has nothing to do with that.

    The change I'm proposing is to allow breweries to brew strong beer and serve it in their own restaurants without having to sell it to a distributor... just to turn around and have to buy it back. The change is the same that is currently allowed for wineries as of 2007/2008. Just a simple change to the language to add "...and breweries."

    We really need to rally support for this rather than talking about why things can't be done. It DID get done for wineries. It CAN be done for breweries.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    If you believe in some sort of all powerful liquor lobby, I've got something to tell you about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.
    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.
    Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.
    That's what I have heard as well. They would lose a lot of money from the sale of wine and beer to the liquor stores because someone else (Walmart, Costco, Whole Foods, Crest, etc) would be bringing in their own wine and beer and it would be cheaper than liquor store wine and beer because the mark up would be less. Liquor stores would still make a bundle on actual liquor and stronger wine and beer but I think the liquor lobby sees this as a snowball effect where they think when will it end? When they can sell liquor, beer and wine in grocery stores like a lot of other states? I think the Naifeh's are working with the state to come to an agreement to make this happen next year but who knows what goes into that or if that will be done.

    Now, on the point of high point beer sold in breweries, that is a mystery to me as well. I worked at Belle Isle Brewery 10 years ago and people from out of town would ask what point our beer was and I would always say an actual 3.2, not like the watered down 3.2 that is sold in grocery stores. They would always respond with shock that we couldn't sell anything stronger and beer in grocery stores were watered down 3.2.

    On a different note, remember when there was a big issue with allowing tattooing to be legalized in Oklahoma and there were so many people against it and now it's like, "what's the big deal?" That's how I think we will look at the grocery store high point wine and beer sales 10 years from now.

  6. #106

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    Believe what you want but in this day in age of public policy and politics, I follow the money. And the liquor distributors and store owners are the ones that have money and they could be significantly impacted financially if things change. So Im going to say its them that are the biggest obstacles to change.
    That's where I know you're wrong. Maybe Byrons, but besides that liquor stores don't have the money to lobby or fight. And really the distributors don't either. The retail liquor association has almost zero budget. Folks seem to think that liquor store owners are sitting on piles of cash, and tons of free time. Considering every store in individually owned, and someone can only own a single store, most (99%) of owners are also the primary employee, and they pretty much just get by. No one gets rich owning a liquor store in Oklahoma.

    As for the distributors, they'd be happy for grocery stores to sell product, since they (the stores) would be required to purchase products through the distributors, they'd just make more money.

    And yes, liquor stores don't want grocery sales. But they don't have any power/money to fight it.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    As long as people keep focusing on a mythical "liquor lobby", and not on the real enemy to change (hint: inertia), nothing will change.

    The biggest reason most of these laws don't change is the effort to change them vs the benefit doesn't make sense for most people.

    Wine and liquor in grocery? Would be convenient, sure, but I pass 3 locally owned liquor stores before I reach the nearest (and out of state owned) grocery. And I can get in and out of a liquor store in about 2 minutes, so pretty easy stop by.
    High point beer in grocery? Same thing. Sure, we miss out on Bud, but otherwise I can get just about any strong beer I want in Oklahoma.
    Cold beer in liquor stores? Lost of folks want this, including liquor stores. It will probably happen. Personally, I can wait 30 minutes for my beer to get cold, but it would be convenient to be able to get beer already cold.
    Sunday sales? Same thing.
    High point beer in brewpubs? Coming I'm sure. The brew industry is playing catchup to the winemaking industry, because while there were folks brewing longer, they didn't work together and promote changes. That's not the case anymore, which is why, for example, you can now taste beers at the breweries.

    The Sunday Sales and Cold Beer issues specifically have enemies in MADD and the religious groups (anything that increases availability is automatically opposed by both of those groups).

  8. #108

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    As for the distributors, they'd be happy for grocery stores to sell product, since they (the stores) would be required to purchase products through the distributors, they'd just make more money.

    And yes, liquor stores don't want grocery sales. But they don't have any power/money to fight it.
    Wouldn't the larger grocery store like Wal-Mart, Target, Whole Foods, Costco, etc. use their own distributor to purchase wine and beer? I would think with the volume they would do, they could get a better wholesale price on the products than from buying from the Naifeh's.

    As for the liquor stores, most don't have the money to fight it, but they have a voice and they can use phrases with their customers like "they are trying to put us out of business" and so on. A lot of liquor stores have a ton of repeat business (shocker, I know) and the customer regularly will engage with the owner. They can ask the customer to contact their city councilman or house rep to get this voted down. Now, it won't make as much of a push as money and hiring lobbyosts, but all those voices could help.

  9. #109

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Personally I would like to see the following changes near-term, though I don't know how likely it is.

    1. Brewers allowed to brew high-point beer
    2. Cold beer in liquor stores
    3. Later closing times

    I don't think pushing for Sunday sales would be wise at this time. These laws will have to change little at a time. If the changes pushed for are too radical, chances of them passing go way down. Not being able to buy cold beer at a liquor store, to me, is the most draconian thing about our laws. It also keeps certain brewers, like New Belgium, from selling in Oklahoma. Cold beer in liquor stores is a win for everyone. I don't see it affecting grocery stores that much because people who want domestics like Bud, Coors, etc are going to go there anyways.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    Wouldn't the larger grocery store like Wal-Mart, Target, Whole Foods, Costco, etc. use their own distributor to purchase wine and beer? I would think with the volume they would do, they could get a better wholesale price on the products than from buying from the Naifeh's.
    I would doubt it. Most states with a tiered system still require the big box stores to purchased through the distributors. Any liquor product still has to be registered through the state, licensed, brokered, and distributed. And all prices are regulated (every retail outlet pays the same for the product at any given time). The way the big box places save is through taking advantage of price fluctuations to stock up on inventory in the lows. Oklahoma, example, the prices alternate month to month where beer is cheaper one month, wine the next, etc.

    As for the liquor stores, most don't have the money to fight it, but they have a voice and they can use phrases with their customers like "they are trying to put us out of business" and so on. A lot of liquor stores have a ton of repeat business (shocker, I know) and the customer regularly will engage with the owner. They can ask the customer to contact their city councilman or house rep to get this voted down. Now, it won't make as much of a push as money and hiring lobbyosts, but all those voices could help.
    But that's not really a lobby. And most customers aren't that invested in engage. Sure, they can push for their agenda, but that's a big difference from an all powerful liquor lobby boogyman that some people seem to think exists. It's pretty easy to do a search and see how much money has flowed from the retail association through lobbyists to politicians. (Hint... $0!) - https://www.ok.gov/ethics/lobbyist/public_search.php

    The distributors have spent about $700 since 2006. If you can buy laws for that cheap, then I need to start on my wish list.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Not being able to buy cold beer at a liquor store, to me, is the most draconian thing about our laws. It also keeps certain brewers, like New Belgium, from selling in Oklahoma. Cold beer in liquor stores is a win for everyone. I don't see it affecting grocery stores that much because people who want domestics like Bud, Coors, etc are going to go there anyways.
    Maybe, but I can tell you that last time the push was made for cold beer, one of the biggest opponents was 7/11.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Maybe, but I can tell you that last time the push was made for cold beer, one of the biggest opponents was 7/11.
    Interesting info. The reasons are obvious. Having more cold beer available dilutes their share of the market. There is also the important part about the most recent push that only allows stores with more than 25,000 square feet to do this. For 7-11, that means not only diluting their share of the market, but they wouldn't be able to offer high-point cold.

    The previous effort was a disaster. It wasn't good for Oklahomans at all.

    Again, all I'm asking for here is to add breweries to the parts of the law that says they can sell high-point beer or wine directly to the public in their own place of business.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Agreed. The religious right + MADD + voter apathy = our draconian liquor laws.
    I disagree with the religious right and MADD being a powerful lobby. Because if it was true, then the elections in Payne and Garfield Counties to allow liquor by the drink on Sunday would not have been won by such comfortable margins. Besides, it hard to think of any pro alcohol questions that have lost on the ballot, especially state wide ones. Apathy and commercial alcohol interests have more to do with why Oklahomans aren't allowed to vote on liberal alcohol law reform more often. You're not going to get much interest in changing alcohol laws from people who don't drink. (I wonder how many legislators who don't show any interest in reforming state alcohol laws don't drink?) Just like you don't get much activist interest in people who don't smoke pot to legalize pot in any form. So at least you're very right on the voter apathy part.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Does anyone here have the actual specifics of what transpired when the winery distribution and brewery tasting room law changes happened? If so, PLEASE message me.

  15. #115

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    But that's not really a lobby. And most customers aren't that invested in engage. Sure, they can push for their agenda, but that's a big difference from an all powerful liquor lobby boogyman that some people seem to think exists. It's pretty easy to do a search and see how much money has flowed from the retail association through lobbyists to politicians. (Hint... $0!) - https://www.ok.gov/ethics/lobbyist/public_search.php

    The distributors have spent about $700 since 2006. If you can buy laws for that cheap, then I need to start on my wish list.
    I think you are too hung up on the professional lobbyists/associations/groups, having known people who worked around the Oklahoma and Texas legislatures most lobbying at the state level is done more on an individual basis than professional lobbying groups/associations. A friend who was a long time staffer for a Texas rep and my wife (usually on the other end of the big money lobbying by multi-family developers) have seen that be much more effective than the "official" efforts because for the most part the "personal relationship" lobbying is untracked. The big lobbying groups are more for DC style politics or huge shifts in public policy like casinos in Texas. Donations through official organizations/associations draw more scrutiny than a nice dinner and "conversation" in the back room at a Downtown Austin steakhouse. There is more "shadow lobbying" going on than most like to admit.

    I agree the retail outlets have minimal influence because of the single shop owner regulations in place. A few influential large distributors (both in the liquor and the 3.2 beer arenas) wield a lot more influence than an association with minimal resources. They might have to adapt their business model to a new retail environment they tend to be resistant to changes in the current model even if it could open some markets up for them, change is just difficult to push for because of the unknowns. Politicians also tend to be resistant to change "what is working" in their mind because they don't want to stir up those organized groups that want to reduce access....so the status quo remains in place.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    So does anyone have any new updates on what they plan to try and lobby for this year or is it just the same, we are going to try and make change in 2014?

  17. #117

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    You probably won't see any changes until Oklahoma City begins construction on the MAPS III convention center and hotel. Does anyone know of any current liquor concerns which might affect bringing in Tier II type conventions?

  18. #118

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    I'm not sure I follow.

  19. #119

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I'm not sure I follow.
    Are there some groups out there who may not see OKC favorable to host their convention because of any existing liquor laws?


    1. Why not consider the sale of beer and wine in the grocery and convenience stores and allow for refrigeration?
    2. We use to close our liquor stores at 10:00 p.m., and for some reason (probably following behind Texas laws) they started closing around 9:00 p.m.
    3. Bars and Taverns in certain areas of Dallas and Houston are allowed to stay open past 3:00 a.m. (closing) and serve non alcoholic beverages to avoid flushing all the drinkers from those establishments onto the roads at the same time. Could we do the same following our 2:00 a.m. closing?



    These mother hen laws are frowned upon by guests & tourists who complain that there's nothing to do in OKC after certain hours.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    Are there some groups out there who may not see OKC favorable to host their convention because of any existing liquor laws?


    1. Why not consider the sale of beer and wine in the grocery and convenience stores and allow for refrigeration?
    2. We use to close our liquor stores at 10:00 p.m., and for some reason (probably following behind Texas laws) they started closing around 9:00 p.m.
    3. Bars and Taverns in certain areas of Dallas and Houston are allowed to stay open past 3:00 a.m. (closing) and serve non alcoholic beverages to avoid flushing all the drinkers from those establishments onto the roads at the same time. Could we do the same following our 2:00 a.m. closing?



    These mother hen laws are frowned upon by guests & tourists who complain that there's nothing to do in OKC after certain hours.
    I completely agree. Oklahoma's liquor laws, if you've lived in other states and aren't used to them, are yet another issue that negatively affects quality of life here. Grown adults should be able to make their own decisions on purchasing alcoholic beverages.

    1. Probably not going to happen for reasons rehashed over and over again, be it MADD, the religious right, voter apathy, or a behind the scenes liquor lobby
    2. Completely agree with this and there should be a push for later closing times on liquor stores as well as refrigeration of beer in liquor stores
    3. I've always wondered why bars/clubs boot everyone to the road at 2am. It isn't just an Oklahoma thing, a lot of other states do it as well. Why not allow non-alcoholic beverages to be sold after 2am or even 3.2 beer? Neighboring Arkansas, a state almost as conservative as Oklahoma, allows bars/clubs to stay open until 5am serving everything.

  21. #121

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Colorado has a 2:00 AM closing time but since it is a Home Rule state there are certain things cities can override. Closing time is one that Denver is considering for LoDo as it tends to get a bit rough around closing time, they are considering going to later closing times but alcohol service would stop at 2:00. The area where my office is located is right in the center of the "problem area", when working late I try to be out of there by 10:00.

  22. #122

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Has anyone here been to an ABLE commission meeting? They are held monthly at the ABLE Commission's offices and they are open to the public.

    Oklahoma ABLE Commission - Commission Minutes

  23. #123

    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    Never been to an ABLE mtg., and Lawdy, jus' take me now iffin' I ever end up in any state agency's mtg. ever again.

  24. #124
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    Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.

    What other states are trying to do for alcohol law reform: States consider changes in liquor, beer, wine laws

  25. Default Re: Another Oklahoma liquor law Thread 2010.


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