County measuring public sentiment toward a sales tax increase to fund jail

[urbanity]

http://www.okgazette.com/article/11-...rovements.aspx

[MustangGT]

I would wager that the answer will be an overwheliming "NO". I do not like additional taxes and feel they are too high now. Also let me say I am no fan of the current Sheriff or the majority of the administration at that agency. However if we as taxpayers do not pony up a sum of money now, to improve or replace the current jail, then the FEDS could march in here and require that we build a new jail that they have conveniently designed for us and the cost will be in the ionosphere.

I reminds me of the Fram commercials, Pay me now or pay me later.

[Midtowner]

It has to be done. It shouldn't have been left to amateurs the first time around. Convenient that this is happening right after the election.

[metro]

Mustang, it's not that the Feds might, but they will if we don't. Just a matter of time. I'm with Mid, let's get it right this time.

[Spartan]

It has to be done. It shouldn't have been left to amateurs the first time around. Convenient that this is happening right after the election.

Explain. Why does it have to be done?

Without reiterating the county's threats about the feds and all that crap.

[MustangGT]

Mustang, it's not that the Feds might, but they will if we don't. Just a matter of time. I'm with Mid, let's get it right this time.

We are in total agreement then. If you want it done right then the only way I see that happening is you get the sheriffs office and county commissiners completely out of it. They are the ones who screwed it up the first time. I know it is different people but it is the SAME instituitional ignorance/stupidity.

A citizens board that had veto control power would sure go a long way to getting it done correctly this time.

[Midtowner]

Explain. Why does it have to be done?

Without reiterating the county's threats about the feds and all that crap.

Because the Department of Justice released a report indicating serious deficiencies at our jail. If the DOJ files a federal suit, what is likely to happen is that the DOJ will be placed in charge of building a brand new jail, completely according to their own specs, independent of local input, without really caring about cost. When everything's said and done, they'll likely just take a special assessment on our property taxes to pay for it.

If we build it ourselves, it can be funded by property taxes or sales tax or both. Obviously, the sales tax would be far superior as it would be able to be collected from individuals from out-of-county who come here to shop.

The Gazette article indicates that they'll be moving the jail out of downtown. That's unfortunate, will inconvenience a lot of attorneys who need quick access to their clients, and also poses some significant security risks as well because they'll be transporting prisoners on highways, in traffic, over a long distance, etc. My hope is that if they locate the jail somewhere away from downtown, they move some of the special judges out there as well to handle arraignments, preliminary hearings and such.

[Steve]

Questions
-have the feds made this threat themselves, or are we taking the word of elected county officials on this?
-are county officials doing a good job with the money they're already getting?
-should the sheriff continue to duplicate law enforcement in urban areas?

[Midtowner]

Steve, I know the Gazette has covered this issue fairly well. An excerpt from Scott Cooper's April 10th, 2010 article discussing recent renovations to the current facility indicates that these DOJ threats are real. The source for those threats isn't clear though. If you wanted to know, I'm sure an FOI request from the DOJ or Oklahoma County would get 'er done.

The renovation comes two years after a U.S. Department of Justice report critical of the facility and the way it was managed. The department warned if new improvements were not made, the jail would fall under the control of the federal government.

http://www.okgazette.com/article/04-...ll_needed.aspx

Are county officials doing a good job with the money they're already getting?

Well gosh, that's awfully subjective. What is a "good job" and in what area are you referring to? All areas? Hard to say.

As for the Sheriff duplicating law enforcement in urban areas, no, and FWIW, outside the jail and the courthouse, I hear pretty awful things from my friends at the OKCPD regarding Sheriff deputies in the field. Of course, if you want to believe the FOP press releases from circa MAPS III, then you'd be thankful to have the Sheriff deputies in your area. They may be the only help you're getting.

[Spartan]

Because the Department of Justice released a report indicating serious deficiencies at our jail. If the DOJ files a federal suit, what is likely to happen is that the DOJ will be placed in charge of building a brand new jail, completely according to their own specs, independent of local input, without really caring about cost. When everything's said and done, they'll likely just take a special assessment on our property taxes to pay for it.

If we build it ourselves, it can be funded by property taxes or sales tax or both. Obviously, the sales tax would be far superior as it would be able to be collected from individuals from out-of-county who come here to shop.

The Gazette article indicates that they'll be moving the jail out of downtown. That's unfortunate, will inconvenience a lot of attorneys who need quick access to their clients, and also poses some significant security risks as well because they'll be transporting prisoners on highways, in traffic, over a long distance, etc. My hope is that if they locate the jail somewhere away from downtown, they move some of the special judges out there as well to handle arraignments, preliminary hearings and such.

We all know the details of the threat.

I still will emphatically oppose a new jail no matter what. Here's the fact: Tulsa County's jail was considerably LESS than $100 mil. They want $400+ MIL for a new jail. That's crazy talk. And I strongly dislike Whetsel.

[Patrick]

You get what you pay for. I'd rather spend $400 mill and get it right this time, instead of building something like what we have in place now by going with the lowest bidder.

[Midtowner]

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

Secondary is this: How do you want the taxes raised--by an assessment on property owners or by sales tax?

The jail is going to happen. You can't stop it. How it happens and who is in charge is what we're voting on.

[Steve]

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

Secondary is this: How do you want the taxes raised--by an assessment on property owners or by sales tax?

The jail is going to happen. You can't stop it. How it happens and who is in charge is what we're voting on.

I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

[Midtowner]

I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

Sounds like a good story to go after. If Whetsel is manufacturing those claims trying to get new toys, well, the s*** should hit the fan, n'est pas?

[Of Sound Mind]

I've yet to hear an actual person with DOJ cited making this threat.
I'm also curious if staffing problems at the jail couldn't be resolved if Whetsel stopped duplicating OCPD, Edmond and MWC pd law enforcement.

Sure wish we had a newspaper reporter who participated in this forum and who likes to hold public officials accountable who could independently check out these details...

[Wambo36]

Of course, if you want to believe the FOP press releases from circa MAPS III, then you'd be thankful to have the Sheriff deputies in your area. They may be the only help you're getting.

In the outlying areas of OKC this is, unfortunately, a very true statement. On the SE or SW sides of the city even Cleveland County or Canadian County deputies sometimes arrive first.

Steve or Mid or whoever might know, at one time there was scuttlebutt about the jail being moved to the east side of town. Are those still the rumors? If so what are the justifications for such a wholesale move?

[Spartan]

I suppose it boils down to this: Who do you think will do a better/cheaper job: The DOJ or Oklahoma County?

If this is a legitimate question, then the answer is unequivocally the DOJ.

[OKCTalker]

I don't believe that Sheriff Whetsel is a good steward of my tax dollars for many reasons, but here's the most recent: The brand spanking new Dodge Challenger in full Oklahoma County Sheriff livery that I saw at a stop light two days ago. I can understand the OHP needing a handful of high-speed interceptors, but the county sheriff!? In 2010!?

[Steve]

Sure wish we had a newspaper reporter who participated in this forum and who likes to hold public officials accountable who could independently check out these details...

If I could, I would. Unfortunately, I'm the downtown development reporter and this is another story under Bryan Dean's purview. I'm just a reader on this, just like the rest of you.

[Midtowner]

Steve or Mid or whoever might know, at one time there was scuttlebutt about the jail being moved to the east side of town. Are those still the rumors? If so what are the justifications for such a wholesale move?

I've heard the Sheriff has his eyes on Choctaw.

Knowing about as much as anyone else, the new site is supposed to be in the 60-80 acre range, so the reason for such a far out move is land acquisition cost. They want to build a jail out, not up, as that's cheaper.

From a dollars and cents standpoint, it probably does make sense to move the jail farther out. I don't think the security risks associated with that can be monetized though.

[PennyQuilts]

I think they need the jail near court. I don't care what kind of intentions people have, the clients won't see their attorneys nearly as much off site. I guess if they put in video conferencing it could work but that would be a nonstop expense and a waste of attorney time while they round them up and get them scheduled to meet - I'm betting they'd end up waiting as long per client as they do talking.

[Midtowner]

With all of the Constitutional scholars we have here, you'd think they'd be incensed about all of these folks who have not yet been proven guilty being subjected to conditions which would be violating treaties if we were keeping war criminals at Oklahoma County jail.

[mugofbeer]

Denver built their's for around $250 million with overruns and art, completed last year. $400 million sounds waaaaaaaaay expensive.

[HOT ROD]

particularly, $400million to build a jail in the country. If it were a truly verticle 25 storey jail in downtown with all the bells and whistles, then 'ok'. but on a 80 acre ranch in the boonies??????

Let the feds do it, they did a good job with the federal building.

[flintysooner]

Cleveland County just had a similar debate. Turns out that every floor of a jail is about the same security problem as having an entire one story facility except, of course, that a single floor isn't nearly the same size.