Bricktown

[bluedogok]

It depends greatly on the type of rail used, electric light rail would not have exhaust and can get by with a tighter radius. That seems to work fine here in Denver even winding through the convention center. Heavy rail definitely needs a lot more room just for the track.

[Urban Pioneer]

But our plans call for less expensive tradittional comutter rail. Not electric light rail in any part of the system. That is to Norman, Moore, Midwest City, Del City, and Edmond.

The NE rail line is currently being studied.

[BoulderSooner]

This would not be light rail it is dmu commuter rail

[Rover]

High speed to MWC. LOL.

The rail people need to prove a little flexibility and not block solid private investment. I agree with previous poster...if it is necessary property then the city needs to declare it so and buy it. Blocking solid plans is a good way to turn the private sector against the plans if they view the rail people as obstructionists.

Part of the public development problem is that they take WAY TOO LONG to develop solid planning and to lay the right groundwork. And, if they impede development and then never follow through, or follow through decades later, the citizens and business leaders don't take them seriously.

This is another case of needing to ____ or get off the pot for the train initiatives. Lay out the plans. Is MWC capable and willing to even spend the money to participate or is this a pipe dream anyway?

[Urban Pioneer]

I agree with previous poster...if it is necessary property then the city needs to declare it so and buy it.

They already own 90% of it.

[Tier2City]

Commuter rail will be the most cost effective way to reach Midwest City, TAFB as well as Edmond and Norman. This mode was identified as such in the 2006 Fixed Guideway Study (http://acogok.org/Programs_and_Servi...edguideway.asp). It will be a lot cheaper then light rail or streetcar over these distances.

It is truly bizarre to think that at the 21 E. Main Street building owned by Don Karchmer and where he offices, ACOG, the largest tenant in that building is currently working on the Regional Transit Dialog 2 (which is being chaired by Mick Cornett). RTD2 (http://acogok.org/Programs_and_Servi...rvices/rtd.asp) includes a major Alternatives Analysis project that is studying the OKC - MWC corridor. Do these people talk about anything at the water cooler?

[bluedogok]

I wasn't sure of the type of rail to be used. I know that it can change from one study/proposal to another.

[bluedogok]

Commuter rail will be the most cost effective way to reach Midwest City, TAFB as well as Edmond and Norman. This mode was identified as such in the 2006 Fixed Guideway Study (Programs and Services > Transportation and Data Services > Fixed Guideway Systems). It will be a lot cheaper then light rail or streetcar over these distances.

It is truly bizarre to think that at the 21 E. Main Street building owned by Don Karchmer and where he offices, ACOG, the largest tenant in that building is currently working on the Regional Transit Dialog 2 (which is being chaired by Mick Cornett). RTD2 (http://acogok.org/Programs_and_Servi...rvices/rtd.asp) includes a major Alternatives Analysis project that is studying the OKC - MWC corridor. Do these people talk about anything at the water cooler?

I couldn't get engineers/technicians sharing the same cube to talk to each other, they always wanted to share the exact same space in the ceiling for lighting, HVAC and fire protection and I had to be the one to coordinate.....

[Urban Pioneer]

The rail people need to prove a little flexibility and not block solid private investment.

Since when do you modify half your planned rail system to accommodate a private project? Particularly when "modifying" means chopping access for half of your system?

I think what people are missing in this discussion is that we have sold so much property off and given up so much right-of-way for Highways and private development, there are very few places left where you can put this kind of infrastructure.

[Tier2City]

Part of the public development problem is that they take WAY TOO LONG to develop solid planning and to lay the right groundwork. And, if they impede development and then never follow through, or follow through decades later, the citizens and business leaders don't take them seriously.

How well do you think Bricktown would be doing without the public development of the Ballpark, Canal, Convention Center and Arena?

[BoulderSooner]

High speed to MWC. LOL.

The rail people need to prove a little flexibility and not block solid private investment. I agree with previous poster...if it is necessary property then the city needs to declare it so and buy it. Blocking solid plans is a good way to turn the private sector against the plans if they view the rail people as obstructionists.

Part of the public development problem is that they take WAY TOO LONG to develop solid planning and to lay the right groundwork. And, if they impede development and then never follow through, or follow through decades later, the citizens and business leaders don't take them seriously.

This is another case of needing to ____ or get off the pot for the train initiatives. Lay out the plans. Is MWC capable and willing to even spend the money to participate or is this a pipe dream anyway?

no one talked about HSR to MWC except Sid ...

the regional AA is underway right now not to mention that the commuter rail to MWC will likely start and end in OKC (sante fe to tinker AFB)

[BoulderSooner]

I'm 110% for commuter rail. After seeing the pictures though, I'll just have to do some trusting. Those angles look mighty wide. I don't know as much as many of you, just experience. And when we starting talking in concrete terms about vehicles, it starts to confuse things more.

Let me expound. In The Netherlands, there is one type of train to get around the country. It's big. Two levels, and they are many, many cars long.





And here is where I've been many times: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=delft...46819299949543

Another: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=delft...63262257417873

It isn't 750' radii... not even close.

So when I hear that this building blocks that, I do have to roll my eyes a little. Maybe it's just the US 'standards' but it sounds too much like the common theme of we can't do it -- regardless of the fact that it is done like that all of the world.

So, do we need a 750' radii, or is that just a best case scenario? Is that what planners 'over here' call for simply because we just don't have a culture of efficiency. We just consume as much land as we need on projects like this.

I certainly wasn't trying to sidetrack the conversation with the HSR.

If we have to have that space no matter what for commuter rail, and we are actually planning on putting in commuter rail in the next decade going out east (that is serious news to me), then I'm on board with preserving the property. But the city better get with the program of buying up that land.

the city owns almost all of the land already. odot owns a small parcel and then there is one private lot fronting main

and 2 things about commuter rail in the next 10 years

1. the Maps 3 streetcar/transit subcommittee has the consultant studying the NE line right now to see what it would take to "activate"

2. the regional AA is currently ongoing and very well could end with a formation of the RTA

[Urban Pioneer]

Very exciting. I hope it happens.

Agreed.

It will take leadership. All the hard work has been done prepping for all this stuff. Will OKC's leaders move forward? That is the question.

I do find it sad that Karchmer may have spent some money on these designs. From the phone conversations I've had today, there seems to be a great deal of "hop'in and wish'in" on part of Karchmer, O'Connor, and others that "we can make it work" without their understanding the technical details of what's required to maintain Santa Fe Station as a viable project.

I was looking at the technical documents I have here at the office. Some of the reason for the broad turning radius has to do with maintaining freight operations through the center of the hub without requiring BNSF radio approvals to cross tracks. Separated commuter dwell zones from freight. It also has to do with avoiding having "wheel squeal" next to Deep Deuce. The tighter the turn, the more likely you may have screeching trains next to the neighborhood, in the future.

[Architect2010]

So is that entire piece of land going to be dedicated to a railroad easement? Sheesh. I guess we're stuck with a giant parking lot, forever dividing Deep Deuce and Bricktown. The railroad bridge will be the official border with parking for the "commuters" underneath.

Don't get me wrong, I want commuter rail and support mass transit but good Lord. I figure this won't be happening any place else when it is denied. Shame.

[BoulderSooner]

They could still build this garage just to the west of the walnut st bridge

[HangryHippo]

So is that entire piece of land going to be dedicated to a railroad easement? Sheesh. I guess we're stuck with a giant parking lot, forever dividing Deep Deuce and Bricktown. The railroad bridge will be the official border with parking for the "commuters" underneath.

Don't get me wrong, I want commuter rail and support mass transit but good Lord. I figure this won't be happening any place else when it is denied. Shame.

I agree completely. Now were confident enough to go denying projects because we might get rail in twenty years.

[Spartan]

Why is there not a thread for this new garage!?

[Spartan]

They could still build this garage just to the west of the walnut st bridge

This impressive proposal is divided in two wings, so which one would not interfere with the HSR easement?

[Urban Pioneer]

So is that entire piece of land going to be dedicated to a railroad easement? Sheesh. I guess we're stuck with a giant parking lot, forever dividing Deep Deuce and Bricktown. The railroad bridge will be the official border with parking for the "commuters" underneath.

Don't get me wrong, I want commuter rail and support mass transit but good Lord. I figure this won't be happening any place else when it is denied. Shame.

I asked Pete to post the drawing of the railroad requirements. It doesn't require the whole swath of land. Entire street walls could built to hide it. It is the lack of planning/coordination and arbitary scheming that is the issue.

[betts]

They could still build this garage just to the west of the walnut st bridge

I was thinking something similar. How about a land swap, moving the garage to a different location on land the city owns? Extending the underground was the worst part of the idea anyway.

[Pete]

[betts]

Or how about fitting the garage within the space not required by the spur and building taller to get the necessary nimber of parking spaces?

[Steve]

FYI - I've addressed this in the transit thread: Karchmer owns a good chunk of this land and has a 25-year lease with the city to construct and operate parking on the remaining property.

[dankrutka]

Tried to find this thread this morning but couldn't. I was in Wichita for three days this past Sunday through Tuesday. The weather was overcast and ugly and I only had two hours on Monday afternoon to walk all over downtown before I had dinner with someone. I'll tell you, Bricktown has nothing on Old Town. Imagine if you could take Guthrie and stick it on Bricktown, that would give you an idea what it's like.

Downtown Wichita (May 6 2013) - a set on Flickr

I moved from Midtown OKC to downtown Wichita and I'd say that Old Town and Bricktown are of pretty similar quality. The problem with Wichita is that aside from Oldtown and a pretty small Delano District, there's no other urban districts in Wichita.

[BoulderSooner]

FYI - I've addressed this in the transit thread: Karchmer owns a good chunk of this land and has a 25-year lease with the city to construct and operate parking on the remaining property.

And I'm sure the city signed an iron clad unbreakable lease