Skyline on N.W. Expressway???

[okcsince1987]

I know this may have been covered before but I must have missed it. What is up with all the skyscrapers on N.W. Expressway. I am curious why they didn't build downtown? They would make our downtown look alot cooler. Any thoughts/answers?

[okcsince1987]

This is referring to the New York Life building, Valliance Tower, 50 Penn Place, that round looking building, maybe the Classen as well.......?????

[onthestrip]

Because people CAN build tall buildings outside of downtown. And probably because they were built at the height of the flight to suburbia.

[okcsince1987]

I know they CAN. I just don't really know what would make someone build buildings as attractive as those outside of downtown. I don't know anything about the flight to suburbia. hmm.....when did that happen? I suppose I am just daydreaming about the potential for our downtown area.

[circuitboard]

I actually like it, it makes the city feel more urban, than only seeing tall buildings just downtown.

[circuitboard]

I know they CAN. I just don't really know what would make someone build buildings as attractive as those outside of downtown. I don't know anything about the flight to suburbia. hmm.....when did that happen? I suppose I am just daydreaming about the potential for our downtown area.

If you were born in 87', you probably won't know much about white flight. It was basically when whites left the cores of cities and headed to the suburbs to avoid having their children go to school with black folk, also cheaper land.

[okcsince1987]

I do like the buildings over there too but couldn't help asking why they were there and imagining them downtown as well. I was born in '87 so I haven't heard about the white flight. That's pretty interesting. I was obviously not one of those. haha. I grew up on the southside of the city, S.W. 44th and May area as well as by S.E. 28th and Central. I do remember that my mother moved to Norman, because of the crime, and I decided to stay in the city with my father.

[MustangGT]

There are a multitude of reasons to build outside of downtown, land cost, commute time, etc. White flight is 70's and very moldy and dubious reasoning today.

[mburlison]

supply and demand. people didn't/don't like long commutes and companies were willing to build accordingly. White flight, no, don't think so, and I'm old enough to know... .

[circuitboard]

If you think white flight didn’t take place at that time or does not take place even today in most cities, you are naive. “I want my kids to be safe”, aka not be around black people. Edmond, Deer Creek, Jenks, and Broken Arrow. WHITE. Also please don't offend me and say your child has "black friends" in these districts.

[Kerry]

I know this may have been covered before but I must have missed it. What is up with all the skyscrapers on N.W. Expressway. I am curious why they didn't build downtown? They would make our downtown look alot cooler. Any thoughts/answers?

I often wished these building had been placed downtown myself but about a year ago someone (wish I could remember who) did a little computer magic and moved these buildings downtown. Compared to even the smallest of downtown buildings, the office towers along NW Expressway are tiny. You couldn't even tell where they were. While they look big along NWExp, they are actually very small. And I don't mean just in height, the floorplates themselves are small. Somewhere on OKCTalk are the images. They are better off where they are.

[SkyWestOKC]

Kerry, not exactly what you were looking for. But this is pretty close http://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?cityID=299

I also agree with Kerry, very small buildings when compared to downtown. I think we need a few more skyscrapers of similar size (not huge) near Valliance and 50 Penn. Have a second skyline going.

[EBAH]

Yeah, I dig them too, they are such a time capsule of a specific era, and a specific economic era for Oklahoma. White flight, of course, did VERY MUCH SO, take place. Cities like Detroit, Cleveland, and St Louis saw it the most amazing numbers, in some case well over half the population. It was a reaction, mainly to the reintegration of schools from Brown v BofE and was later sped up by brutal race riots accross the country and practices like blockbusting. New school systems were made (you can probably guess a few OKC ones), new municipalities were created (many with racially restrictive policies, again a few can be figured out around here), and downtown residential and shopping all but diss-appeared. At this same time, Oklahoma City was reinventing itself as a cosmopolitan, finance based economy, and companies were very eager to build. Those buildings along NW Expressway, which at the time, looked a LOT more like Memorial Rd, were not built out of partial necessity as buildings are in dense downtown communities. They were built purely as statements. They were built to show power, and to be seen for MILES. Thats what makes them so cool to me. They are made to be viewed, in their entirety. Just as many of the more attractive low rise buildings, most notably Founders National Bank on N May. They are all built on plots with plenty of space around them, and on the right nights just look so wonderful. It really is a great collection of late mid-century architecture of all kinds. The NW Expressway corridor is really a bit like a special district to showcase OKC's grand building boom. Also, if you really want to take a historical view of the changing tastes of Urban America, take a drive from about NW10th and May north to about May and Memorial. You'll first see the tightly clustered street car neighborhoods and corner shops of the 1920's-30's. Then, the early white flight shopping centers and midcentury buildings. Followed by 1970's-80's Penn Square era strip malls like the collonades, the rolls royce dealership, the gaudy condo buildings, and the TON of "luxury" tract homes. It all ends up with Super Target, mega strip malls, and McMansions. The latest of these changes in fashion, is occurring now, and it is a return to a desire for urbanism. With generations starting with about your generation (referring to OP) "White Flight" is becoming an increasingly foreign concept. Both suburbs and inner cities around the US are becoming increasingly diverse. Some see it as a transition to a reverse white flight phenomenon, but it could also be a bit of a settling, into more multi ethnic metropolitan areas. Anyway, Im sorry for the rant, but it is a subject I could chat about for days, really one of the most interesting periods in American history. Being kind of aware of these little fads in the way Americans live make so much of our chaotic little city make a bit more sense.

[circuitboard]

Yeah, I dig them too, they are such a time capsule of a specific era, and a specific economic era for Oklahoma. White flight, of course, did VERY MUCH SO, take place. Cities like Detroit, Cleveland, and St Louis saw it the most amazing numbers, in some case well over half the population. It was a reaction, mainly to the reintegration of schools from Brown v BofE and was later sped up by brutal race riots accross the country and practices like blockbusting. New school systems were made (you can probably guess a few OKC ones), new municipalities were created (many with racially restrictive policies, again a few can be figured out around here), and downtown residential and shopping all but diss-appeared. At this same time, Oklahoma City was reinventing itself as a cosmopolitan, finance based economy, and companies were very eager to build. Those buildings along NW Expressway, which at the time, looked a LOT more like Memorial Rd, were not built out of partial necessity as buildings are in dense downtown communities. They were built purely as statements. They were built to show power, and to be seen for MILES. Thats what makes them so cool to me. They are made to be viewed, in their entirety. Just as many of the more attractive low rise buildings, most notably Founders National Bank on N May. They are all built on plots with plenty of space around them, and on the right nights just look so wonderful. It really is a great collection of late mid-century architecture of all kinds. The NW Expressway corridor is really a bit like a special district to showcase OKC's grand building boom. Also, if you really want to take a historical view of the changing tastes of Urban America, take a drive from about NW10th and May north to about May and Memorial. You'll first see the tightly clustered street car neighborhoods and corner shops of the 1920's-30's. Then, the early white flight shopping centers and midcentury buildings. Followed by 1970's-80's Penn Square era strip malls like the collonades, the rolls royce dealership, the gaudy condo buildings, and the TON of "luxury" tract homes. It all ends up with Super Target, mega strip malls, and McMansions. The latest of these changes in fashion, is occurring now, and it is a return to a desire for urbanism. With generations starting with about your generation (referring to OP) "White Flight" is becoming an increasingly foreign concept. Both suburbs and inner cities around the US are becoming increasingly diverse. Some see it as a transition to a reverse white flight phenomenon, but it could also be a bit of a settling, into more multi ethnic metropolitan areas. Anyway, Im sorry for the rant, but it is a subject I could chat about for days, really one of the most interesting periods in American history. Being kind of aware of these little fads in the way Americans live make so much of our chaotic little city make a bit more sense.

Thank you EBAH for that detailed response, very well said.

[mburlison]

If you think white flight didn’t take place at that time or does not take place even today in most cities, you are naive. “I want my kids to be safe”, aka not be around black people. Edmond, Deer Creek, Jenks, and Broken Arrow. WHITE. Also please don't offend me and say your child has "black friends" in these districts.

Did I say that White Flight didn't exist? No... read again. I am saying the buildings along NW Expressway, in my opinion, were not directly related to that reason. You're a fine one to ask to not be offended with your generalities and assumptions. I lived at Council and NW Expressway area for many years and we had neighbors of all ethnic groups. Don't be so full of yourself. The NW side of Oklahoma City has been predominately white for many more years than those buildings on NW Expressway existed. Another thing, you need to check on who works in those buildings, it is NOT just 'white folk' from the burbs.

[ljbab728]

I'm sure that most people are aware that this isn't something unique to OKC. Just look at Dallas as a close example and the LBJ Freeway corridor. Suburban highrise districts are common around the country. And I doubt that "white flight" had anything to do with decisions to build office buildings in suburban areas.

[MikeOKC]

Here's some trivia....the Executive Terrace Building which was torn down in 2008 was just east of May on Northwest Expressway and was the first high-rise on Northwest Expressway. It was quite the fancy place when it opened. Interestingly, Jim Thompson designed and built that building as a young man. He kept his office there on the ground floor until shortly before demolition. He still designs the "rough drafts" (or whatever you call it in architecture) for all of his properties and that includes his latest project --- the Aloft Hotel.

[HOT ROD]

very interesting that most if not all of the buildings in the NW business district are basically the same height as the Renaissance Hotel. ... Only Valliance Bank tower comes 'close' to the downtown skyscrapers and even it is basically the same as Mid America tower. ...

Very interesting, and I agree - it is better to have them in the NW where they are. Now we need to fill it in with midrise infill and focus skyscrapers in Downtown (as well as highrise infill).

[UnclePete]

I wonder what the vacancy rate is for the Northwest buildings and also for downtown buildings.

[flintysooner]

I wonder what the vacancy rate is for the Northwest buildings and also for downtown buildings.

Price Edwards' report had Northwest office vacancy at about 14% and CBD was about 25%. But Class A vacancy Northwest was about 22% and Class A in CBD was about 14%. That was the mid-year report I think.

[Kerry]

All the class C property downtown really skews the vacancy rate.

[metro]

I'm surprised no one mentioned it, I too don't think white flight had as much to do with it as much as most of those were built in the height of the oil boom, when money was abundant and the need for more office space was prevalent. ie Penn Square Bank. I think they had the right mentality in a lot of regards back then, more than we do now. I think if it weren't for the huge oil bust and bad habits with banks, OKC would be a much more urban minded city, and NW Exp. would have seen many more mid to highrises. Honestly I think we need more mid and high rises all throughout the City. Memorial Rd. needs taller buildings in it's office park west of May. Southside has practically zero other than hospitals. As someone said, most major cities have several highrise districts. OKC is boring in that regards, we have too much one story development, especially in the office space sector.

[flintysooner]

All the class C property downtown really skews the vacancy rate.

About 50% I think.

[Kerry]

As someone said, most major cities have several highrise districts. OKC is boring in that regards, we have too much one story development, especially in the office space sector.

Name me one city with-in 500,000 people of OKCs population with multiple high-rise districts. OKC is way ahead in this regard compared to peer-cities. Jacksonville has 3 buildings over 10 stories outside the urban core and that is it. Take away the hotels around Disney World and Orlando is the same way but with a population 2X that of OKC metro. You have to get in to the 5,6,7 million people range before seeing consistent clustered suburban high-rises.

[OKCTalker]

If white flight is defined by blacks displacing whites, can anyone cite an example in OKC?