Project 180

[shawnw]

I walked this last night. Of course, I walked along the pavers near the street. Looking at it on the ground, it's an ADA nightmare no matter what. The ramp going up to the sidewalk near the building is pretty steep, not sure if it technically meets ADA grade percentages or not, but if so it's tight. Almost would have been better (than getting sued) to bite the bullet, do this all right the first time, since whatever is done could be preserved during the demo of Cox in however many years.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
The question is whether or not it could have been done right without elimination of the ramp altogether. I'm not sure one way or the other, but do know this would have of course been deemed unacceptable by their primary parking tenant. Also not sure if it would have been adequate for exiting that parking, just theoretically. Originally there was another ramp exiting onto Sheridan, which was eliminated when the MAPS-funded expansion of the Myriad was done in the late nineties.

[Pete]

Looks like they are pretty much finished here.

Not sure why they just used concrete on the southern part of the median.

[Urbanized]

You mean just concrete vs tree wells and grass? My guess would be that it had to do with backing trucks into that overhead on the Cox Center and the potential to overrun the median.

[Pete]

You mean just concrete vs tree wells and grass?

I realize it is narrow but surprising they just paved it rather than putting in some form of landscaping.

[Urbanized]

Yeah I edited that post, but my guess would be that it had to do with getting trucks and equipment in and out of that overhead. Just guessing though.

[riflesforwatie]

Not sure if this is the right thread for this, so if not I apologize for bringing something 2+ years old back to life, but I saw one of our City Councillors post on social media about the old scourge of "beg buttons" (where a pedestrian "walk" signal doesn't appear automatically) in OKC. Later that same day, I was at Reno and Walker, a generally really nice intersection redone as a part of Project 180. But one of the poles, which happened to carry the walk/don't walk sign and the associated "beg button" appeared to have been taken out by a vehicle and temporarily replaced with a traffic cone. Since the intersection is programmed *not* to give a walk signal without a button press, there's no way to (legally) cross the street here, since the button is missing! This seems like one of many good reasons to eliminate beg buttons citywide, but especially at all the Project 180 intersections since those are all connected by good sidewalks/crosswalks, have ADA curb ramps, and have modern traffic signals that support walk signals with countdowns.

[Plutonic Panda]

It makes sense to get rid of “beg” buttons in areas with high pedestrian activity but not citywide.

[PaddyShack]

It makes sense to get rid of “beg” buttons in areas with high pedestrian activity but not citywide.

Please explain? I enjoyed having the automatic pedestrian lights throughout Barcelona, even in the outlaying neighborhoods where pedestrian activity is quite low throughout the day. Of course the way they set up their crosswalks is quite nice and they don't allow turn on red...

[David]

The beg buttons need to go away everywhere. Having them as the standard sets a baseline for pedestrian unfriendliness that discourages the population from walking and helps prevent areas from developing into areas with high pedestrian activity.

[HangryHippo]

The beg buttons need to go away everywhere. Having them as the standard sets a baseline for pedestrian unfriendliness that discourages the population from walking and helps prevent areas from developing into areas with high pedestrian activity.

This. No reason (especially with Covid) to still have to push a button to cross a street. Also, the "pole clutter" that crops up at some intersections because of the beg buttons/light poles/power poles/other poles is ridiculous.

[jccouger]

Off topic I guess, but what is the status with project 180? Is it finished yet?

[Pete]

Off topic I guess, but what is the status with project 180? Is it finished yet?

Finished from a run-out-of-money perspective.

They only completed about 60% of what was originally promised.

One big hole is Main Street between Robinson and EK Gaylord. It's right in the heart of the CBD and was on the list but never done. There aren't even markings on the street and it still has those old early-70's globe light fixtures. Even the Century Center side got almost no love.

And they did almost nothing to EKG, which has always been a concrete canyon and pedestrian barrier.

[riflesforwatie]

Yeah, the cost and time overruns on this project were terrible, and of course, as you have pointed out many times, Pete, there were basically no consequences for it.

Speaking of EKG, even the segment they finished (between Reno and Sheridan) is sort of a mess. I was down there a couple of days ago and all the streetlights are inoperable. That's sort of par for the course for many areas around town, I guess, but disappointing to see on P180 street segments. I think this was pointed out in this thread a long time ago, but the issues with the parking garage and loading dock entrances to the Cox Center also prevented the City from doing a full sidewalk on the west side of EKG between Reno and Sheridan. I saw a group of kids try to ride their Lime scooters northbound on EKG on that west side sidewalk and they got a nasty surprise when they got to the end of the line and hit the loading dock curbs in the dark. (Of course, they shouldn't have been riding on the sidewalks in the first place.) The whole lack of sidewalk on that side is even more bizarre given that we had to install "ghost tracks" for the streetcar there as part of the multi-modal upgrades at the Santa Fe Station.

The rest of EKG/Shields is very dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians and just reinforces the giant railroad viaduct as a barrier between the CBD and Bricktown. The traffic signal at the Boulevard and Shields was out on this same evening (I think the streetlights were, too), so again, no way that anyone on a bicycle or on foot would be able to cross safely there. A couple of final things to note: the south edge of Main between EKG and Broadway (basically the Continental building) is in bad need of the P180 treatment. The weird grade changes and planters (plus the lack of lighting) are sort of out of place. I will say that it's very good that the BancFirst tower provides pedestrian access across the north edge of that street segment, even if you aren't able to go north on Broadway towards Park.

[onthestrip]

The beg buttons need to go away everywhere. Having them as the standard sets a baseline for pedestrian unfriendliness that discourages the population from walking and helps prevent areas from developing into areas with high pedestrian activity.

Didnt know it was such an inconvenience to push a button. Dont even need to use your hand to do it. And in no way is this discouraging pedestrians, no one is driving instead of walking because of buttons.

Why have automatic crossing signs on intersections that might see 1 pedestrian a day?

[Pete]

Yeah, the cost and time overruns on this project were terrible, and of course, as you have pointed out many times, Pete, there were basically no consequences for it.

This is a hot-button issue for me.

The city kept saying, "Yes it took far longer and cost way more, but now we have a better grip on things" and went on to promise multiple sections would still be done very late in the process but then were never touched.

Every time this issue was raised, they city would have the Oklahoman come running over and they'd feed them some new line which was happily published without challenge or research.


In the end, the city broke promises over and over again and since there was no accountability, I have no confidence it won't happen again.

[TheTravellers]

Didnt know it was such an inconvenience to push a button. Dont even need to use your hand to do it. And in no way is this discouraging pedestrians, no one is driving instead of walking because of buttons.

Why have automatic crossing signs on intersections that might see 1 pedestrian a day?

It's not about the inconvenience, it's about the whole philosophy behind *having* to push a button to get a "walk" signal.

[HangryHippo]

It's not about the inconvenience, it's about the whole philosophy behind *having* to push a button to get a "walk" signal.

Bingo.

[riflesforwatie]

Didnt know it was such an inconvenience to push a button. Dont even need to use your hand to do it. And in no way is this discouraging pedestrians, no one is driving instead of walking because of buttons.

Why have automatic crossing signs on intersections that might see 1 pedestrian a day?

a) How do you press a non-existent button when a walk signal has been taken out by a vehicle?
b) Though surface transmission of the novel coronavirus is relatively minor, how does it make sense to ask people to touch publicly-accessible buttons during the middle of the worst public health crisis in a century?
c) Automatic crossing signs on intersections, even those lightly used by pedestrians, will make everyone safer by forcing drivers, both the good and the cell phone-distracted, to get used to the idea of *always checking* intersections for pedestrians before proceeding. This safety issue is getting most salient every year, as research clearly demonstrates that the average vehicle is getting larger, that the average vehicle is getting higher (especially the front grill/hood), that the average vehicle is getting more distracting thanks to touchscreens, etc., and that these factors all conspire to make pedestrians harder to see and to put pedestrians at far higher risk of serious injury or death in the cases where they are actually hit.
d) I'm happy to wait 20-30 seconds extra in my multi-ton air-conditioned box at a few intersections a day. More time for podcasts.

[dankrutka]

Didnt know it was such an inconvenience to push a button. Dont even need to use your hand to do it. And in no way is this discouraging pedestrians, no one is driving instead of walking because of buttons.

Why have automatic crossing signs on intersections that might see 1 pedestrian a day?

This is the basically argument that the traffic engineer made to me in a city council meeting. In arguing for beg buttons he asked, "is it really too much effort to push a button?" It was so condescending and nonsensical. No, it's not too much effort, it's bad design.

Pedestrians shouldn't have to ask permission to walk anymore than a driver should have to ask permission for a light. Car-centric design has left people oblivious to what equitable multimodal design looks like.

[TheTravellers]

...
Pedestrians shouldn't have to ask permission to walk anymore than a driver should have to ask permission for a light. ...

Can you imagine the hue and cry if people had to open their car window and push a button at seldom-used intersections to make the light change for them?

[riflesforwatie]

Can you imagine the hue and cry if people had to open their car window and push a button at seldom-used intersections to make the light change for them?

I can't imagine it -- The looks you get from drivers when you're in a crosswalk and they have to wait 5 seconds longer to turn right on red are bad enough!

[Plutonic Panda]

This is the basically argument that the traffic engineer made to me in a city council meeting. In arguing for beg buttons he asked, "is it really too much effort to push a button?" It was so condescending and nonsensical. No, it's not too much effort, it's bad design.

Pedestrians shouldn't have to ask permission to walk anymore than a driver should have to ask permission for a light. Car-centric design has left people oblivious to what equitable multimodal design looks like.

But many cars do ask for “permission” to cross a light especially during late hours with sensors. It’s harder to detect pedestrians and it makes no sense to have automated pedestrian signals at 150th and Penn as it takes a pedestrian much longer to clear the intersection than it does a car. Sense there is virtually little to no pedestrian activity during much of the night and few during the day, it would increase wait times for drivers at the intersection for no reason. Downtown? Yes. Majority of OKC? No.

PS, I find the notion of pedestrians “asking for permission” to cross malarkey. They aren’t asking to cross, they are making their presence known so the light will activate. Again, it’s no different than what a car does just different method. If anything the proper terminology would be demanding.

[Pete]

PS, I find the notion of pedestrians “asking for permission” to cross malarkey. They aren’t asking to cross, they are making their presence known so the light will activate. Again, it’s no different than what a car does just different method. If anything the proper terminology would be demanding.

Only an apt analogy if 1) crossing signals automatically sensed pedestrians; and 2) car signals were always red until you pulled up to them.

[David]

Poor people who have to walk around town are far more likely to not live downtown than live there. I live in the Penn and 39th area, and I see way more pedestrians than I would have expected in spite of the unfriendly pedestrian infrastructure in the area. Making it more accessible would help everyone, including those who normally have a car available but occasionally don't.