New OCU Law School (dead)

[Spartan]

Hate to tell ya, UCO Jazz was on the map well before the Jazz Lab.

But yeah, it sure as heck didn't hurt.

I'm talking about growing existing programs as well as successful new programs. OU meteorology was on the map as well before their new bldg.

[PennyQuilts]

This is a shame... I think this spells the end of the career for the current Law School Dean Hellman.

Will he go back to teaching?

[Bigrayok]

The current OCU Law School building is nice and relatively new, only about 20 years old. I never understood the desire to spend huge amounts of money moving to an old factory building that looks depressing to me. I think OCU can more effectively spend money elswhere. I understand people's interest in moving to the old Fred Jones building but would it really be worth the cost? This is probably a question alumni and adminisrators have asked also.

Bigray in Ok

[Spartan]

Well I guess the question now is what Fred Hall will do with the building. It still has enormous redevelopment potential. Will it just continue to be used as his warehouse now, or will he find some other organization to fill it, will the ACM become re-interested in this building, or will he drop his preference against a private redevelopment?

[Larry OKC]

I thought the move was ingenious. Huge bummer.

The move downtown was preconditioned on MAPS 3 passing AND the streetcar route going within striking distance anyway. That seemed like it was pretty sure bet after McDaniels was chosen as head of the Citizen Oversight Board. Add in the wrinkle that the County Jail may not even end up being downtown and it was a house of cards. (Granted the Courthouse etc will still be there)

The cynic in me would say it was a ploy to wring out a few more votes to make sure MAPS 3 passed. But that is just conjecture on my part.

[Spartan]

Well keep in mind that anything the county puts to a vote right now won't get passed, period. Also, are you sure they required that the streetcar route serve them? McDaniel just referred to it as one of the amenities he wanted in the general downtown area, as far as I know--but I DO remember him specifically mentioning it, so you could be right.

[Larry OKC]

Don't have the article handy and you may be right, I may have mis-characterized the streetcar route (but it seemed implied that for the deal to go thru, those were the preconditions). Will see what I can dig up.

[Larry OKC]

Here's what I dug up...

http://newsok.com/ocu-officials-plan...rticle/3418328

OCU officials plan to move law school downtown to Fred Jones plant (Oklahoman, 11/18/09)

...OCU President Tom McDaniel said he began looking at options of moving the law school downtown after he was asked by Mayor Mick Cornett to submit ideas for adding an education component to a potential MAPS 3 ballot.
...
McDaniel called the old car plant an ideal location for the law school — if voters approve MAPS 3 and plans to create a downtown streetcar system. The streetcar, he said, could allow the school and the county to consider a consolidation of their two law libraries. He also noted the property is within walking distance of the Oklahoma County jail, police headquarters and municipal courts — all ideal for enhancing indigent legal aid initiatives for students.
...
As a result, the letter of intent has a big "if” clause — the passage of MAPS 3 on Dec. 8.

"We think continued development of downtown and Core to Shore is an important element in their plans for developing the property and our plans to move the law school to downtown,” McDaniel said. "We think the transit element is important. We would be bringing 750 people to downtown every day, and more than 600 of them would be students riding that transit to law offices and the county law library.”

Implies a streetcar route connecting the main campus and the downtown location.

This goes back to the whole "Intent" problem. Even though MAPS 3 passed and most likely the Streetcar route will end up in close proximity (does anyone know if the proposed routes include it)? And the historic tax credits are still in play (but may be delayed), the university changed their Intent.

http://www.okgazette.com/p/12776/a/5...AxADIANwAyADkA
OCU may soon kiss frog on west side of Downtown (Gazette, 12/2/09)

...If MAPS 3 passes, one of the proposals is a downtown streetcar system that could take students from the front door of the Fred Jones building to the courthouse steps about six blocks to the east. ...

[Kerry]

This is exactly why the tracks need to get laid as soon as possible. It has to be the first MAPS III project to get built. It is the new infrastructure backbone and everything depends on it. Once the tracks are down developers will know where to build. Until then, no one is going to do anything.

[jbkrems]

No, Dean Hellman would either retire or otherwise leave OCU. I can see that happening in 1-2 years now, not 2-5 as I saw with this project.

[Midtowner]

The current OCU Law School building is nice and relatively new, only about 20 years old. I never understood the desire to spend huge amounts of money moving to an old factory building that looks depressing to me. I think OCU can more effectively spend money elswhere. I understand people's interest in moving to the old Fred Jones building but would it really be worth the cost? This is probably a question alumni and adminisrators have asked also.

Bigray in Ok

There are two issues with the current facility.

1) The ABA wants libraries to be in the same building as their attached law schools. OCU's law library is in the Gold Star building which is about a 75 yard walk from the law school. This hasn't been a problem with accreditation, but it someday might be.

2) There's pressure to grow the law school as the school needs money. The law school and the business school are cash cows for the university. Both schools are historically highly profitable. The business school has recently had a huge decline in enrollment due to the economy--international students, which are typically the bread and butter of that school are not enrolling anymore. This has put a huge hole in the undergrad scholarships budget. The law school's incoming class is always filled to capacity. They could admit more if they wanted (even as low as they're ranked, they turn down about half of the applicants for seats there).

[PennyQuilts]

The current OCU Law School building is nice and relatively new, only about 20 years old.

It opened in 1994. I was a new alum and the active, never-ending fund raising was going on during the second half of my studies. Probably it is just the timing but, for me, the building is brand new and I still get a thrill to see the place. The notion of having the librairy all in one place is valid but I can't help but think there are cheaper ways around that than heading downtown and renovating. Plus, it is not that long ago that donors were ponying up cash for the Sarkeys building. Some are probably not ready to reach into their pockets so soon. If I feel a little like they are abandoning what we were so excited about, I am certain many others feel the same way. Not all, but many. The streetcar always struck me as (and I know this is going to make some absolutely crazy) ridiculous. Too many law students at OCU have to get home to put the kids to bed to wait on a street car to come by on its route. Speaking as someone who was a parent while a student, it is just reality. I didn't have time for much socializing and I sure didn't have time to wait on public transit. It might be different for OU students who tend to be more traditional.

[DirtLaw]

This is definitely disappointing, but I suspect we have not heard the last about it. I feel like there is still potential for this project to happen at some point. As far as Dean Hellman leaving, I think that would be a good thing. I think the law school could use a change in the administration. When I was there I felt like the administration was a joke. It may be time for some new blood in there.

[NickFiggins]

Since the new president Robert Henry was the Dean of the Law school when the new facility opened I think he know's what he is doing. He realizes that the fund raising efforts for a new building would make it hard to raise those funds for badly need endowed chairs.

I think most of us can spell out what this means for OCU politically. They just painted themselves as outcasts with the chamber group. I don't think their new president gets the politics around here, by deciding to pass on downtown.

You can say a lot of things about Robert Henry but out of touch with the OKC business community is certainly not an accurate assessment. His resume is someone who knows the pulse of the business community and would not make moves to threaten support of the business leaders. Moving the law school downtown may have been a 'cool' idea for outsiders but for the law students, its stupid. Last time Henry was at OCU he was salvaging their accreditation, so this is merely a decision of more important priorities. With OCU's bar passage rates at their current levels, recruiting better faculty members is far more important than shiny new digs.

[DirtLaw]

Since the new president Robert Henry was the Dean of the Law school when the new facility opened I think he know's what he is doing. He realizes that the fund raising efforts for a new building would make it hard to raise those funds for badly need endowed chairs.


You can say a lot of things about Robert Henry but out of touch with the OKC business community is certainly not an accurate assessment. His resume is someone who knows the pulse of the business community and would not make moves to threaten support of the business leaders. Moving the law school downtown may have been a 'cool' idea for outsiders but for the law students, its stupid. Last time Henry was at OCU he was salvaging their accreditation, so this is merely a decision of more important priorities. With OCU's bar passage rates at their current levels, recruiting better faculty members is far more important than shiny new digs.

I agree. Judge Henry definitely knows what he is doing! There are a lot of the faculty that have been there too long and need to move on.

[OKCMallen]

Would have elevated their law program, though, and helped them provide a more sought-after and higher-quality program. Apparently I have been sorely corrected in the past on the misconception that OCU is a prestigious law school..

What is the opposite of prestigious? That's what OCU Law is. Last time I checked it is, literally, one of the worst in the country. Tier 4.

[Rover]

Henry definitely knows what he is doing. He is extremely bright and pragmatic. He will be excellent for the school.

[OKCMallen]

The faculty at OCU is on par with the faculty at the other schools. The big difference is the average LSAT score and GPA of matriculates. The level of instruction is the same (and that'll be confirmed by the transfers) and OCU offers a night program, which OCU doesn't. I didn't apply anywhere else because I had a job upon graduation and worked as an assistant/intern throughout law school, basically doing an apprenticeship, so graduating with 4 years of experience already under my belt was absolutely the best choice for me regardless of the cost (which is ridiculous).

But no, OCU won't attract better students when it's demanding more than double what OU charges and about $250/hour more than Tulsa.

As far as the difference in the students at each school, OCU being in OKC is a huge plus as it's much better connected to the legal community and the courts. Cleveland County obviously doesn't offer nearly the sorts of opportunities to get your feet wet. The results on the Bar Exam for all three schools are always within 2-3% points, most of which you could probably blame on OCU's night students who tend to be parents, have careers, etc. stuff which makes taking the two months away from life to study for the Bar very difficult... even then, the numbers are always very close.

This is a bunch of propaganda Mid.

1. The faculty is NOT on par with OU. It's not even close in my experience 3 years ago.
2. The LSAT and GPA are direct indicators of the quality of students.
3. The level of instruction is NOT the same, and I am a transfer.
4. OCU being in OKC *could* be a huge boon, but OU is right down the road and is more highly regarded downtown.

The Oklahoma bar exam is really what you hang your hat on? It's a MINIMUM skills test. Every school needs to be in the 90%+ range. That is not an achievement test.

I know plenty of intelligent and good attorneys from OKCU Law. I consider you one of them. But OKCU Law doesn't even sniff OU. Nor does Tulsa.

[OKCMallen]

Spartan does have a point that OCU Law probably lost some street cred by backing out of the intent.

[yessir69]

They definitely should have done this. UALR has been downtown for eons. University of Memphis just moved its law school downtown. It's so much easier for internships, etc..

[OKCMallen]

Well, and having the OKCU Law Library downtown and open to attorneys (as it is now if you sign in) would build a great rapport and connection between the legal community and the school as well. Having students alongside practicing attorneys would be cool. Not to mention the OKCU law library has a ton of great resources that the County Courthouse doesn't. (You don't need them much, but it's cool to have access.)

[onthestrip]

Since when does a law school need street cred?

While it would have been great for them to move downtown and refurbish a beautiful old building, they probably realize it isnt the best of times to be moving the law school and spending tons of money to do it. As someone said, to outsiders it would have been cool, to insiders it is probably a financially wise decision. But there is always hope for the future.

[OKCMallen]

When they want to raise funds or move in the future, having some street cred is pretty dang helpful.

[bombermwc]

As an interesting side point that might have had some influence, the Math and Science departments are on the map now to have Loefler replaced with a MUUUUUUUCH better building. The talk was that if Law moved, then they would move into Sarkey. Apparently that wasn't the case because otherwise, the plans wouldn't have been so well developed for the new building. The place includes a LOT of lab space in/out doors.

I'm personally glad to know that they won't be using Sarkey. It was a law school...not a science school. The new place will be MUCH better suited.

That would have left Sarkey empty. I don't know many universities that want empty buildings of that size.

[Spartan]

Since when does a law school need street cred?

I can't think of many things that reputation are more important to than law schools.