Why no retail in Bricktown?

[TheTravellers]

Walked down to the Bricktown Candy Co and they were also doing good business, and I was impressed with their collection of soda pops and got some Sioux City Birch Beer. I was disappointed they didn't have Leninade but I've only been able to find that at Pops.

I think you can get Leninade at International Pop (part of Size Records on Western between Britton and Wilshire) - they have a facebook page where they list all their flavors. Don't know where you live and if they're convenient to you, but they've got a huge amount of drinks (and lots of cool records too :-) )...

[Spartan]

Thanks for the heads up.

This is far afield for me, so I'll try to stay in the shallow end...

Where does Bricktown fall in terms of lease cost? Significantly higher than other urban retail areas in the region? For instance, I'm curious what the cost differences are between Bricktown, Utica Square, Nichols Hills, Highland Park, etc. I know there are a multitude of other variables, but I have heard prior Bricktown tenants speak of extremely high overhead, which obviously makes for pretty thin margins.

It seems when these discussions of retail come up, thoughts immediately go to mall-type retail (how many pairs of $100+ jeans does anyone really need?). I'd love to see a gourmet "niche" market spawn. Consider if you wandered into an area of Bricktown that contained a Sur La Table, Balducci's, or even better - a Native Roots or Forward Foods grocery. Maybe even a produce market like Sterling or Angel's. Those are all places I routinely go out of my way for.

Why doesn't that work? Cost too high? Demand too small?

That's the kind of niche retail that typically develops where there is an affluent neighborhood. That's why Native Roots and Forward Foods are on Main Street in Norman, surrounded by the Chautauqua neighborhood, and Forward Foods is also on North Western, surrounded by Crown Heights.

Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

[Steve]

Bricktown outpriced itself in the early to mid-2000s. But the rates now are on par or lower than Nichols Hills, and I'd assume Utica Square.

[Kerry]

Bricktown outpriced itself in the early to mid-2000s. But the rates now are on par or lower than Nichols Hills, and I'd assume Utica Square.

Maybe so, but how successful would Utica Sq be if it had 50 different owners all pursuing their own interest with little regard for each other?

[Steve]

Sometimes it blows my mind just how poorly informed folks are on this board...
I will withdraw from this thread. There is no hope.

[Kerry]

Sometimes it blows my mind just how poorly informed folks are on this board...
I will withdraw from this thread. There is no hope.

I know there is a Bricktown Association that is supposed to bring the owners together but the reality is it isn't working because there is no major retail in Bricktown. They need to come with Plan B because Plan A didn't work.

The reality is that individual retail won't work in Bricktown until the local population base exceeds several thousand people. If downtown is going to have any significant retail presence it is going to have come in the form of a single large lifestyle-type shopping center with one developer trying to lure multiple tennats.

I remember when they were building St. Johns Town Center here a few years ago. The were slow to release store names because Urban Outfitters wouldn't commit until Coldwater Creek committed, and Coldwater Creek wouldn't committ until Williams Sonoma commited. This meant that Simon Malls would have to give a discount to Williams Sonoma in order to land the other 2. You can't do that in Bricktown becasue that would require an individual owner to fall on the sword for everyone else and no one is going to do that.

Another issue with Bricktown retail is how little space there is to actually rent for national retailers. What is the total amount of available leaseable space? I'll bet it is less than 200,000 sq feet and most of it is less than prime retail space. St Johns Town Center is 1.1 million and University North Park in Norman is planned for something like 3 million.

[BG918]

Maybe so, but how successful would Utica Sq be if it had 50 different owners all pursuing their own interest with little regard for each other?

Bingo, and that is a big hurtle for downtown retail anywhere in the U.S. unless you get someone like Cordish to buy up an entire area and build retail/restaurants/bars/entertainment like they have done in KC with P+L and in Louisville with 4th Street Live, to name a few. That way parking, a big concern in an urban setting, can be shared and the businesses complement, instead of compete, with each other due to common ownership.

[Kerry]

Bingo, and that is a big hurtle for downtown retail anywhere in the U.S. unless you get someone like Cordish to buy up an entire area and build retail/restaurants/bars/entertainment like they have done in KC with P+L and in Louisville with 4th Street Live, to name a few. That way parking, a big concern in an urban setting, can be shared and the businesses complement, instead of compete, with each other due to common ownership.

Atlanta has been trying to bring retail to a portion of Midtown and they just can't do it for this very reason. Atlantic Station is owned by one company and they have several national retailers but just down the street is hundreds of thousands of square feet of empty retail space because no one wants to be the owner that cut a low-ball deal just so his neighbors could lease their space at higher rates.

[positano]

Thanks for the heads up.



That's the kind of niche retail that typically develops where there is an affluent neighborhood. That's why Native Roots and Forward Foods are on Main Street in Norman, surrounded by the Chautauqua neighborhood, and Forward Foods is also on North Western, surrounded by Crown Heights.

Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

Interesting. I see your point, but I don't know that I agree that Forward and NR are in what I would consider an affluent neighborhood, or that it's the clientele they appear to serve. That campus area absolutely has some nice homes, but I would describe it as a pretty mixed neighborhood. Also, I'm in both of those shops a couple of times a week and I see a HUGE variety of customers from all over Norman.

I suppose that all means nothing given the lack of much population near the Bricktown area, affluent or otherwise, but I guess that goes back to my original thought. As I pointed out, I go about 15 minutes out of my way to both FF and NR, and always see people who have done the same. Unless that's an anomaly, that would suggest folks might do the same for a Bricktown area with a similar offering. Also, regardless of whether the potential patrons live near Bricktown, a significant number of them work in the area. If I run one of these shops, it doesn't make any difference to me whether customers come from their homes to shop or stop in on their way home from work.

Kerry - why does it take "5,000 to 10,000 people living in Bricktown to keep retail going"? Doesn't that assume you are relying on a residential base to spend the dollars there? I was just trying to think of the closest place I shop (for anything). Other than maybe a pharmacy run of convenience, dry cleaning, and bulk groceries, we tend to destination shop. Most people I know do the same. Also, I tend to disagree with you on the one-owner concept. While that may be the case if Bricktown wants a Dress Barn / Petsmart / Office Depot / AT&T cluster, I don't think that would be the case for something a little more unique, but that's certainly an undeducated opinion on my part.

Maybe some of these retailers have been waiting for answers to the longevity question - "do we think Bricktown will last...?". Maybe with the success of the Thunder the risk of failure for the area is beginning to be outweighed by the potential reward.

[Spartan]

Positano, I really do agree with you. The problem is you're thinking positively, though. These location consultants have, shalwesay..a different way of thinking.

Kerry--here's the million dollar question: How are they doing it on M Street in DC, Lincoln Rd in Miami Beach, and so on?

[metro]

Love the Lincoln Rd. Mall in Miami Beach!!!

[Kerry]

Positano, I really do agree with you. The problem is you're thinking positively, though. These location consultants have, shalwesay..a different way of thinking.

Kerry--here's the million dollar question: How are they doing it on M Street in DC, Lincoln Rd in Miami Beach, and so on?

I don't know but my guess would be they have a lot of people living within walking distance or that live on-site. Bricktown can do this to if they have a local resident population.

@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

[BDP]

Chains and "destination retail" don't really require immediate rooftops..

Yes, but at the same time, a wide variety of individual retailers can actually create a destination on its own without chains. And it would actually be one that is unique and in an atmosphere that would be more enjoyable that your typical mall. I honestly think it is the chains that are crunching the demographic numbers more so than your typical boutiques who just want to see traffic period. If it is unique, dense, and varied, you can create a successful retail environment without chains that is its own destination.

We do have a small scale example of this in Oklahoma City. The stockyards has several locally owned specialty shops and the district lives off of its unique image and culture without chains or without target rooftops nearby. Very few of those shoppers come from the immediate neighborhood and many come from all over the world.

I find it hard to grasp the idea that Bricktown couldn't do AT LEAST what campus corner has done with retail. While campus corner is situated near target neighborhoods and can live off the students to a large extent, Bricktown has easier access to a market 10 times as big with the occasional tourist and convention traffic.

However, a big problem is that bricktown has not been developed with the type of storefront density that even campus corner has. Someone would really have to break up some buildings and add real street access storefronts to get it off the ground, imo. The market place will be good, but for retail to really work it needs store access from the street where people can walk around bricktown to shop several stores, not walk into a single large warehouse to shop.

All that being said, I think the best place to develop store front retail downtown is still mid-town.

[Kerry]

Meanwhile back at the ranch, there still isn't any significant retail in Bricktown and it isn't due to a lack of trying. They can come up with Plan B or keep trying to stick with Plan A and hope it works out someday (or before someone else develops a real retail district near C2S).

What is Plan B? Who knows but they don't 10 more year to figure it out.

[Rover]

I think some take some of these comments on this thread as an attack of friends they have in ownership or organizational positions in Bricktown and may not be appreciating the comments and the spirit they are given in. The btown assn and owners may all be great and wonderful people all working together to bring in retail, but the fact remains it hasn't worked. And the WHY is what this thread is exploring. Bricktown Assn may be the hardest working group in the city, I don't know. However, we do know that retail isn't yet working there and there are some good thoughts on this thread as to why.

I can only comment as an outsider looking at the district, observing since its creation, and reading every announcement about it. And my thoughts are this...the buildings don't seem to have been adapted to be appealing for retailers to draw customers into their shops. There is little display window space, visible signage, etc. There are no destination boutiques or difference makers. There are no national brands that are destinations. The only retail is Bass Pro which is at the far end, has a big parking lot dividing it from the main part of Btown and does little to create foot traffic for the area which could be retail. Lower canal area hasn't developed shopping and actually has very poor street visability anyway. Therefore, you have people come to the area to eat and party, not stay and shop. Until you have counts of people who come willing to spend money on shopping, I think it will flounder.

I sincerely hope the Red Dirt Emporium or whatever it is called, works. It seems it is a btown version of the Market at Quail Springs (which I have personally taken space in) and if it is like there, it will work better for the building owner than the retailer.

[betts]

Yes, but at the same time, a wide variety of individual retailers can actually create a destination on its own without chains. And it would actually be one that is unique and in an atmosphere that would be more enjoyable that your typical mall. I honestly think it is the chains that are crunching the demographic numbers more so than your typical boutiques who just want to see traffic period. If it is unique, dense, and varied, you can create a successful retail environment without chains that is its own destination.

I find it hard to grasp the idea that Bricktown couldn't do AT LEAST what campus corner has done with retail. While campus corner is situated near target neighborhoods and can live off the students to a large extent, Bricktown has easier access to a market 10 times as big with the occasional tourist and convention traffic.

However, a big problem is that bricktown has not been developed with the type of storefront density that even campus corner has. Someone would really have to break up some buildings and add real street access storefronts to get it off the ground, imo. The market place will be good, but for retail to really work it needs store access from the street where people can walk around bricktown to shop several stores, not walk into a single large warehouse to shop.

All that being said, I think the best place to develop store front retail downtown is still mid-town.

I've been thinking about this the past couple of days. A perfect example of how it can be done is The Highlands in Atlanta. They've got a mix of restaurants, bars and shopping in an area smaller than Bricktown. There is housing around it, but people come from all over Atlanta to shop and eat there. They've primarily got clothing stores, but also a shoe store, a florist/gift shop, a couple of antique shops, etc. There aren't a lot, but they're unique and it's a fun place to shop and eat lunch.

There are two places in Bricktown that something similar could be done. I agree that a single building marketplace is not enough of a draw. It's a nice addition, but cannot stand alone as a way to bring people to Bricktown to shop. Main street has several buildings that could be used, however. The Sherman building and the one adjacent to it could be retail, and there are several unrestored buildings across the street that could be used. Then, the primarily single story, primarily empty buildings that used to be clubs across from the Hampton Inn would lend themselves to retail. Both of them are off the canal, which I suspect would make leasing less expensive. If we had a few parts of Bricktown that had retail a little more concentrated, then people would also walk around to other scattered shops, were they to exist.

Perhaps there needs to be a Bricktown Retail Association formed as a subset to the Bricktown Association. And maybe the chamber needs to get involved. I think it will take more than just talking about it. They need to make a real commitment to getting retail there and aggressively market it for retail if they want it to happen.

[metro]

The Gaslamp in San Diego is really less organized and smaller than Bricktown, yet has indepedent property owners and more retailers than Bricktown, especially in the clothing sector. Heck, I don't even think they have an "association" like Bricktown does.

[positano]

@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

No, not typically a shopping center. I'm not much in the category of the "browsing shopper" - I've got a pretty good idea what I'm looking for when I set out. Unfortunately, I end up driving all over the city to get what I need. For me to venture into a shopping mall, somebody better have the monopoly on what I'm looking for. But hence my caveat - maybe folks like me are the exception to the rule and it takes more to make retail fly. Easy for me to say as I'm not the one risking my dollars on a retail venture, but it seems to me that we'll never know what would have worked if we're going to wait for Simon to buy a block and promote a mall. (And don't get me wrong - I'm not knocking malls. They just aren't what I'm looking for.)

And no, I've never seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer, but that certainly wouldn't prevent me from buying something at one or the other if they had what I was looking for. In fact, I was just trying to think of some of the shops I frequent and whether I know what is on one side of the other - I'm guessing I might know about 50%.

[z28james]

I went into that Red Dirt Emporium a few months back and I was impressed with thier selections, but I remember the guy working in there that was was not that friendly, he may have had a bad day for some reason. I make sure that my employees are really super nice to the out of town folks so the leave OKC with a good impression. Also I am impressed with the candy company, the manager in there relly knows his soda and candy. Prices are comparable and they have my beloved imperial dr pepper. I would like to see it move I to another space though, it's sort of hidden.

After reading all the posts it makes some more sense but are the leases high compared to let's say penn square or quail springs etc?

[Spartan]

Well, let's look at the success the Brewer's are finally having and they might bring Envy across the tracks. There may finally be some retail synergy along the canal with the Bricktown Candy Co, Red Dirt Emporium, Red Dirt Marketplace, Put a Cork In It, and Envy. That's no small potatoes.

I also say that there is a LOT of potential in the idea of a separate retail association. If property owners don't join such a retail association they're morons. Unfortunately, we already know some of them are morons...so who knows.

How did Wichita's Old Town develop its retail offerings??

[Kerry]

The Gaslamp in San Diego is really less organized and smaller than Bricktown, yet has indepedent property owners and more retailers than Bricktown, especially in the clothing sector. Heck, I don't even think they have an "association" like Bricktown does.

How many people live in or adjacent to the Gas Light District? Answer >10,000.

If Bricktown wants retail without a national developer to bring is destination retail then they better start building some apartment and condos on-site. Three or four blocks away in Deep Duece isn't going to cut it.

[betts]

@positano - when you do your destination shopping is it in a shopping center? Is that entire shopping center owned by one company that marketed the entire center to a target audience? Have you ever seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer?

I haven't seen an Anne Taylor next to a used furniture dealer, but I think we need to appeal to something other than the Anne Taylor/Coldwater Creek crowd, or at least the portion of it who wouldn't consider buying something from a local store.

I've seen an Urban next to vintage clothing and used furniture stores in Chicago, but on that same street were lots of little local boutiques and restaurants and the neighborhood is one considered cool.

I was thinking that a store like Shoe Gypsy would do well in Bricktown. They have shoes that aren't cheap, but aren't insanely expensive either. Their clothes are targeted towards young adults, but their shoes can be worn by any age. If I had the money, I'd knock off Anthropologie and have a store that sold clothes, jewelry, shoes, purses and housewares, with a few unique antigues thrown in, and especially if you priced it a little lower than Anthro, it might be a hit as well. A shop like Glimpse would work, as would an antique/gift/clothing store like French Cowgirl. We don't really need chains, if we have stores that make it fun to shop. Actually, any of the stores along Western would be great, and really, Bricktown could offer retail a lot closer together than shops on Western, with less risk crossing the street and more parking. Again, if we had someone with some vision in the Bricktown Association or the chamber, we might be able to make something like that happen and to heck with the national chains. Most people, if they're visiting, would rather go to stores that aren't just like what they've got at home anyway.

[Steve]

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[betts]

We opine Steve. I'm no expert, just someone who likes retail and has done a lot of shopping in a lot of places. I'd love to hear what the experts said.

[Spartan]

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