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Thread: Wheeler District

  1. Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by fightlessllama View Post
    I don't think it's that difficult of a concept dude. We talk about wanting a denser urban core. More walkability. Making public transit more viable. Here we have a development that is trying to do that. Many young families have to make the tough decision to move from the core to the suburbs for both the financial and perceived (whether right or wrong) educational benefits of the suburban schools. You can stand on your high horse all day and cite some studies, which are probably correct, but I don't see them providing any solutions that don't involve some imagined utopia in which families selflessly go against the grain and offer their own kids up as the first guinea pigs in some self-righteous attempt at trying not to appear classist/racist. In the mean time, nothing changes and we get the worst of both worlds.

    This could be a school that brings young families of means into the core who might have instead padded Edmond or Norman's tax coffers. It offers Spanish immersion, unique in that I think its only offered at one other elementary in the city (unless some of the posters here are trying to subtly imply that going to a school with a large amount of english-as-a-second-language students is basically Spanish immersion). We need creative concepts like this charter school in order to combat sprawl and increase the benefits in pubic health and sustainability that come with density. And to appease you, I would argue that these kids will be more likely to interact with other kids of diverse racial and economic backgrounds here in the city core as opposed to the insular suburbs. Plus the school's boundaries include the adjacent neighborhood and it could be even further expanded with time.

    Lastly, while granted I'm not too familiar with the OKC public school system, I'm under the impression that even outside of John Rex there are other charter or magnet schools that are not so hidden outlets for those of means to give their kids quality educations within the OKC public school system. Tulsa, which I'm more familiar with, has this with Booker T Washington. Local kids feed into the school but it's also a magnet school for smart kids from outside the district. It provides a "rising tides lifts all boats" effect. Through that and other ways, Tulsa has a strong upper-middle class participation in the central public schools, plus a strong civically and financially active midtown I would argue is partially a result of that. OKC is similar to a lesser degree with Classen School of Advanced Studies I believe. I just think we need actual solutions instead of snarkily chalking up it all up racism when in actuality it's a complex decision families make with both conscious and unconscious reasonings behind them.
    Yeah, you're not familiar with OKC. Classen SAS, Harding Prepatory, Harding Fine Arts, and Southeast are all magnet schools, I believe, and perfom significantly above the rest of the OKCPS and compete with the top in the state. Classen and Southeast are both being expanded to two-campus systems due to their success. Then you have Dove, Aztec, and Rex which are all charters, which do great as well. There are plenty of great private schools as well.

    And because of these existing, and most of them underappreciated, assets... my opinion is a firm NO to the Wheeler District charter school. Want a private school? Mt. Saint Mary's. Middle School? Rex is opening one soon and Parmelee is being converted to Southeast MS. High schools? MSM, Classen SAS, Southeast. Or Rex in the future. Private, Charter, and Magnet are all accessible and nearby.

    We don't need any more charters and we should support exisiting schools and help make them great too.

  2. #1902

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    I think a key difference between John Rex and Wheeler is the granular ownership of property downtown and the many, many stakeholders that already exist there. Their attendance boundaries do stretch into many socioeconomic categories. Although I don't necessarily see the need for John Rex to be a charter just because it was the new school downtown.

    For Wheeler, why not allow the increase in property taxes to flow to the district level and let the school district decide if and where a new school should be built. Overcrowding certainly exists in that part of town. Wheeler could even donate the land and help raise money to ensure it is located within their development. The district would certainly draw much more inclusive attendance lines and it would align with the curriculum and resources of all the other schools. Why must we assume that hip, "urban" families will only move to the urban core if there is a shiny, new charter school waiting for them? If you really want urban, go to an urban public school. Public schools in urban areas have natural diversity without the need for a diversity quotient.

  3. Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthSide View Post
    So its ok to create a elite school system within OKC PS as long it is downtown. Downtown already had nearby elementary schools and I believe Taft would be the middle school. Most of the southside schools are overcrowded and if Wheeler grows as expected another elementary school will be required. Not to mention the planning and building for a new school will take some time.
    there weren't any schools IN downtown, so Charter was the quickest and best quality way to do it at the time. OKCPS is in a much better position, and there are no more "empty pockets" left in OKC to justify a brand new, exclusive public school (downtown was the only spot since it had long just been conceived as a business/entertainment area).
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  4. #1904

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    there weren't any schools IN downtown, so Charter was the quickest and best quality way to do it at the time. OKCPS is in a much better position, and there are no more "empty pockets" left in OKC to justify a brand new, exclusive public school (downtown was the only spot since it had long just been conceived as a business/entertainment area).
    Why is it quicker to start a charter school than a typical public school?

  5. #1905

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    If the new schools in the Wheeler District are going to make that area an amazing place to go, why don't we just embrace it? If we depend on the system that they have in place, it will do much less good and it will be an inferior plan. Instead of making jabs at the Wheeler District, let's take a much bigger look on the system.

    The Wheeler District is an amazing win for OKC! Let's remember that that this was the craziest idea years ago. It's working. Hooray!

  6. Default Re: Wheeler District

    less bureaucracy and at the time with Rex, OKCPS was in a bit of shambles that they couldn't focus on the downtown school.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  7. #1907

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by krisb View Post
    I think a key difference between John Rex and Wheeler is the granular ownership of property downtown and the many, many stakeholders that already exist there. Their attendance boundaries do stretch into many socioeconomic categories. Although I don't necessarily see the need for John Rex to be a charter just because it was the new school downtown.

    For Wheeler, why not allow the increase in property taxes to flow to the district level and let the school district decide if and where a new school should be built. Overcrowding certainly exists in that part of town. Wheeler could even donate the land and help raise money to ensure it is located within their development. The district would certainly draw much more inclusive attendance lines and it would align with the curriculum and resources of all the other schools. Why must we assume that hip, "urban" families will only move to the urban core if there is a shiny, new charter school waiting for them? If you really want urban, go to an urban public school. Public schools in urban areas have natural diversity without the need for a diversity quotient.
    Because crappy public schools are literally one of the main reasons families move to the suburbs and don’t stay around downtown when they start having kids. It isn’t an assumption, it’s reality.

  8. #1908

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Because crappy public schools are literally one of the main reasons families move to the suburbs and don’t stay around downtown when they start having kids. It isn’t an assumption, it’s reality.
    That shiny, new EPIC school has done wonders for this state's educational reputation...invest in the schools currently there, don't build new for new's sake.

  9. #1909

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Because crappy public schools are literally one of the main reasons families move to the suburbs and don’t stay around downtown when they start having kids. It isn’t an assumption, it’s reality.
    Delete
    Last edited by jonny d; 07-21-2019 at 08:06 AM. Reason: Double post

  10. #1910

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by urbanCOWBOY View Post
    If the new schools in the Wheeler District are going to make that area an amazing place to go, why don't we just embrace it? If we depend on the system that they have in place, it will do much less good and it will be an inferior plan. Instead of making jabs at the Wheeler District, let's take a much bigger look on the system.

    The Wheeler District is an amazing win for OKC! Let's remember that that this was the craziest idea years ago. It's working. Hooray!
    This is an interesting. Dan if desegregation is a desired outcome then why does it matter which tool you use to achieve the goal?

    Are you saying you think it would be easier and cheap to accomplish desegregation using your busing method? Do you think busing would have the desired affect or do you think the people you wish to integrate will just leave because of racism or other considerations.

    It seems to me that the wheeler school idea is an attempt to integrate with the existing communities south of the river. In conclusion I believe you are making an economic argument and not a desegregation argument is that correct?

  11. #1911

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Because crappy public schools are literally one of the main reasons families move to the suburbs and don’t stay around downtown when they start having kids. It isn’t an assumption, it’s reality.
    What exactly makes a school crappy? Without touring the building and meeting the students, teachers, and administrators in person how do you know? On what basis do we measure the quality of a school? OKCPS is taking bold steps to ensure that every school has equitable resources, staff, and curriculum. This process will take time, but so will the development of Wheeler.

  12. #1912

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by krisb View Post
    What exactly makes a school crappy?
    Test scores?

  13. #1913

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by soonermike81 View Post
    Test scores?
    Which test scores? Present achievement or growth over time? What if English is their second language? Haven't we learned that teaching to the test is not what we are looking for in education? Test scores are excellent predictors of a students' household income and parental education, not school quality.

  14. #1914

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Because crappy public schools are literally one of the main reasons families move to the suburbs and don’t stay around downtown when they start having kids. It isn’t an assumption, it’s reality.
    First, public schools aren’t “crappy,” but thanks for your thoughtful comment and insult to those of us who worked 10-12 hour days to educate kids and improve our communities for [checks my starting teacher pay] $29,000. Second, families literally flock to suburban *public schools*. The problem is that White Flight has resulted in a segregated school system and the courts quit requiring remedies. If families with means quit leaving then the schools would all be fine.

  15. #1915

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    HHE, I do not believe the Wheeler plan is about integration, but maintaining control. I appreciate they want a somewhat integrated dual immersion school (that’s a lot better than most charter plans), but they can have that without creating a new school. Why should these families get such preference and power compared to their neighbors who already live there? If there was more evidence (and maybe there is... I’d love to learn more) that the current families in the area are involved, supportive, and empowered then I’ll be convinced that integration is the aim.

  16. #1916

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Also, a good new podcast, “The Myth that Busing Failed” if you’re interested in the history and effectiveness of integration remedies: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/18/p...gregation.html

  17. #1917

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by dankrutka View Post
    HHE, I do not believe the Wheeler plan is about integration, but maintaining control. I appreciate they want a somewhat integrated dual immersion school (that’s a lot better than most charter plans), but they can have that without creating a new school. Why should these families get such preference and power compared to their neighbors who already live there? If there was more evidence (and maybe there is... I’d love to learn more) that the current families in the area are involved, supportive, and empowered then I’ll be convinced that integration is the aim.
    yeah they should instead just trust that OKC public schools will "get it right"

  18. #1918

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by krisb View Post
    I think a key difference between John Rex and Wheeler is the granular ownership of property downtown and the many, many stakeholders that already exist there. Their attendance boundaries do stretch into many socioeconomic categories. Although I don't necessarily see the need for John Rex to be a charter just because it was the new school downtown.

    For Wheeler, why not allow the increase in property taxes to flow to the district level and let the school district decide if and where a new school should be built. Overcrowding certainly exists in that part of town. Wheeler could even donate the land and help raise money to ensure it is located within their development. The district would certainly draw much more inclusive attendance lines and it would align with the curriculum and resources of all the other schools. Why must we assume that hip, "urban" families will only move to the urban core if there is a shiny, new charter school waiting for them? If you really want urban, go to an urban public school. Public schools in urban areas have natural diversity without the need for a diversity quotient.
    this charter school would be far more diverse than Rex

  19. #1919

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    yeah they should instead just trust that OKC public schools will "get it right"
    So it is all about control then? I get it.

  20. Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    yeah they should instead just trust that OKC public schools will "get it right"
    Or become more involved with OKC public schools and the classrooms to ensure they will "get it right". That's what we do here in my son's school district in the Pac NW. Parents and concerned helping out at the schools, what a novel idea. ...
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  21. #1921

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Telling people how they have to do things doesn't work when they have other options.

    People who are looking to buy in the Wheeler District can live anywhere they want. Moralize at them all you want, but people will be more likely to move into that neighborhood if they feel there is a good school available for their kids.

  22. Default Re: Wheeler District

    that's their choice to move to Wheeler to begin with. Why would they also need a special school to entice them to live there?

    Again, there is the choice of doing a private school in wheeler. No way should OKC PS be told they have to put in a charter school - your argument goes both ways since Wheeler does have other options nearby. ..

    And my point was, parental involvement makes schools good.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  23. #1923

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    that's their choice to move to Wheeler to begin with. Why would they also need a special school to entice them to live there?

    Again, there is the choice of doing a private school in wheeler. No way should OKC PS be told they have to put in a charter school - your argument goes both ways since Wheeler does have other options nearby. ..

    And my point was, parental involvement makes schools good.
    okc ps wouldn't be putting in the public school ..


    and from what i have heard the folks at wheeler feel very good about their chances that the state board aproves thier school if it gets to that point

  24. #1924

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    okc ps wouldn't be putting in the public school ..


    and from what i have heard the folks at wheeler feel very good about their chances that the state board aproves thier school if it gets to that point
    This is what's going to happen. I doubt they raised all that money and donated the land without a clear path to getting this done. I suspect their preference was to do it at the local level with local involvement, knowing that they could get it approved at the state level if necessary.

  25. #1925

    Default Re: Wheeler District

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    that's their choice to move to Wheeler to begin with. Why would they also need a special school to entice them to live there?
    I'm not suggesting you're incorrect in your other points, but I think you're grossly off on thinking that a charter is not an important part of their master plan. John Rex was special because it gave downtown residents a high-quality school option at a time when that did not exist. It was so very successful that many people moved into the core, or leased apartments, just to get their kids in that school. I know several families with young kids who kept their homes in Edmond or Norman but lived in the Core for a year or two just to get their kids into John Rex.

    Wheeler has advertised their future plans for a charter to be based on John Rex. This broadens the net of possible home buyers to include young wealthy families - which is arguably their largest target.

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