Downtown Tulsa development ahead of OKC?

[Spartan]

I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

[ljbab728]

I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

Lol, Spartan. You really do need to get back to OKC. Maybe then you will get closer "in touch" (which obviously means agreeing with Spartan) with whats going on than those of us who have never left and aren't just making observations from afar to run everything here down. I'm not really sure from your comments why you would even want to come back since you can't buy the designer underwear here that you desire.

[Oil Capital]

I give up. Can't wait to get back to OKC. I'm already planning my Memorial Road shopping trip right now. First I'm gonna hit up the Sears, then the Abercrombie & Fitch and get some high-fashion, then J.C. Penney's, I might even go get some OU shirts at Wal-Mart. Wow this living in the big big city really is something. We are "Big League City" now.

As usual, instead of responding with anything at all in support of his theory, Spartan gives us . . . sarcasm. Way to prove your point Spartan.

Allow me to recap the sum total of Spartan's evidence for the existence of Tulsa having a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene: Sak's, Restoration Hardware and Fossil; yeah Fossil. LOL (And of course this takes no account whatsoever of any stores OKC might have that are not also in Tulsa.)

[progressiveboy]

As usual, instead of responding with anything at all in support of his theory, Spartan gives us . . . sarcasm. Way to prove your point Spartan.

Allow me to recap the sum total of Spartan's evidence for the existence of Tulsa having a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene: Sak's, Restoration Hardware and Fossil; yeah Fossil. LOL (And of course this takes no account whatsoever of any stores OKC might have that are not also in Tulsa.)

Don't forget Steve Madden and Oakley (lol).

[bluedogok]

The one main difference is that Tulsa' Utica Square doesn't have an equal in OKC, at least not right now.

...and I think that is the root of this "discussion" and something we all admit. Penn Square is the closest to that level of shopping but in the end it is still an enclosed mall and encumbered by some stores that are not "upscale" due to the fact they have been in there a long time and haven't opened up slots for newer stores. Traditional malls are losing favor, we went out to Barton Creek Mall the other day and they have more openings than I have seen since moving to Austin seven years ago, Lakeline and The Arboretum (all Simon properties) do as well. Most of it is due to the changes in retailing, right now it is in a state of flux all over the country and more closures than openings are expected. The fact that Penn Square has so few openings is remarkable for an enclosed mall, now if a quality lifestyle center is built in OKC, they might be affected by that bu the fact that Simon would probably be a part of it means they would have to balance their locations. Some would move, only a few have moved from other locations in Austin to The Domain, most that opened in Phase I were new stores to the Austin market and I think that if one is built in OKC that might happen as well.

[Spartan]

...and I think that is the root of this "discussion" and something we all admit. Penn Square is the closest to that level of shopping but in the end it is still an enclosed mall and encumbered by some stores that are not "upscale"

Exactly. Until this thread, I wasn't really aware that anyone could stand by OKC's retail offerings. Sometimes OKC Talk doesn't really reflect reality.

[Oil Capital]

Exactly. Until this thread, I wasn't really aware that anyone could stand by OKC's retail offerings. Sometimes OKC Talk doesn't really reflect reality.

Give it a rest already, Spartan. Utica Square is a lovely little shopping center. Nobody suggested otherwise. But, sorry, Utica Square and a couple stores OKC doesn't have do NOT constitute anything close to a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene. Nothing you have posted comes anywhere near showing such to be the case. You made a snide reference earlier to knowing people who drive from OKC to Tulsa to shop, just like people drive from rural Oklahoma to OKC to shop at Sears. I have news for you, Spartan. I've known a good number of people in my years in Tulsa who have driven to OKC to shop. People who like to shop, like to shop in different places, and no matter how much you want to denigrate it, Penn Square Mall is the best large shopping center in the state.

Personally, I would give a VERY slight edge to Tulsa, primarily because of Utica Square and Sak's, but realistically they are pretty much in the same league.

Again, when you are ready with some facts to back up your ridiculous claims, by all means let's seem them.

[Larry OKC]

How about this:

Tulsa has some stores that OKC doesn't and vice-versa?

Eventually most stores that come to one of the Cities first, eventually end up in both?

[ljbab728]

How about this:

Tulsa has some stores that OKC doesn't and vice-versa?

Eventually most stores that come to one of the Cities first, eventually end up in both?

That sounds like a pretty fair assessment to me, Larry.

[metro]

Be sure to let us know when you are prepared to have a discussion based on some verifiable facts and without the ad hominem attacks.

After all of your spouting off on the subject we are left with the fact that Tulsa has Saks and Fossil and that apparently makes shopping in Tulsa "remarkably more evolved" (whatever THAT might mean)

And the fact that OKC has some stores not present in Tulsa does not count because, well, for no other reason than Spartan doesn't care about those stores.

Your whining about other cities having better retail options than OKC would be a whole lot less pathetic if you were able to back it up with some actual facts. But personal attacks are so much easier, aren't they?

And FWIW, contrary to your earlier post, Apple did NOT come to OKC and Tulsa at the same time. Tulsa was more than 2 years later than OKC.

LOL Fossil, that was so 90's, not to mention, they are cheap watches, not Rolex or Tag Heuer or something. Heck you can get Fossil at Ross or JC Penneys if you want a Fossil. Wear much Fossil do ya Spartan? Exactly, that was my point of Apple and Cheesecake Factory, that they came to Tulsa AFTER more than a year of success in OKC.

WOW, you really totally lose it when someone challenges you with actual facts, don't you?

(1) I never said anything about Whole Foods or Anthropologie not being retail. But, for the purposes of shopping, especially shopping that attracts out of towners, Whole Foods is indeed pretty much irrelevant. Anthropologie, is, as you know, still in the coming soon category. When it opens, we'll add it to the supposedly very long list of stores Tulsa has but OKC doesn't have... and then the list will be 3 or 4 stores long!

(2) It is beyond obvious that Vans is a retailer. I was vaguely aware of what they sell, but could not really care less. You are the one who brought Vans into our conversation. I don't know or care if they have a store in OKC. But, fwiw, we "know" that the Vans YOU are talking about is coming to OKC in approximately the same way we know Anthropologie is coming to Tulsa... from the newspaper.

Allow me to remind you that I am not alleging that OKC has superior shopping. I have nothing to prove here. I think they are overall pretty comparable. You, on the other hand are alleging that Tulsa has vastly superior shopping and so far, as proof, have shown us Sak's and a Fossil store. I'll give you a freeby... Tulsa also has a Restoration Hardware. Still a long, LONG way from "remarkably more evolved."

(3) You have demonstrated over and over that you have no grasp of the facts or any actual in-depth knowledge of the retail scene and now you want us to believe that you know about Utica Square's supposed waiting list? Give us a break. If Utica Square indeed has a waiting list, why does it take them so long to fill spaces? Harold's closed almost 1 1/2 years before Anthopologie signed a lease. Waiting list, indeed. (For the record, I have never said anything about a waiting list at Penn Square and do not have any knowledge of it (and unlike you, I am not going to pretend to have knowledge I don't actually have)).

(4) I guess it makes you feel good to rail about stores you don't approve of at Penn Square, but it's hardly relevant to the conversation. It is, after all, a regional mall, and as such offers a little bit of everything.

Referring back to an earlier statement of yours... contrary to your statement, Cheesecake Factory did not open at the same time in OKC and Tulsa.

If you ever come up with some actual facts, maybe something like a list of significant length of stores that Tulsa has that are not also in OKC (without an equal number of OKC stores that Tulsa does not have), I'll be eager to see it. Until then, you're claim that Tulsa's shopping is "remarkably more evolved" is nothing but drivel.

I agree with you completely exept for the Whole Foods part, however they did get it through a corporate buyout. People DO drive to Tulsa to shop at Whole Foods. I make several trips there a year just for that and I know others that do as well.

Give it a rest already, Spartan. Utica Square is a lovely little shopping center. Nobody suggested otherwise. But, sorry, Utica Square and a couple stores OKC doesn't have do NOT constitute anything close to a "remarkably more evolved" retail scene. Nothing you have posted comes anywhere near showing such to be the case. You made a snide reference earlier to knowing people who drive from OKC to Tulsa to shop, just like people drive from rural Oklahoma to OKC to shop at Sears. I have news for you, Spartan. I've known a good number of people in my years in Tulsa who have driven to OKC to shop. People who like to shop, like to shop in different places, and no matter how much you want to denigrate it, Penn Square Mall is the best large shopping center in the state.

Personally, I would give a VERY slight edge to Tulsa, primarily because of Utica Square and Sak's, but realistically they are pretty much in the same league.

Again, when you are ready with some facts to back up your ridiculous claims, by all means let's seem them.

Personally, I'm not that impressed with Utica Square, it's just as outdated as Nichols Hills Plaza, and has less retailers. Sure, NHP doesn't have 4-5 trendy national retailers, but it makes up for the uniqueness in local flavor, many of which carry high end names. We won't mention the Dior and Chanel across the street from NHP. shhh! Does Spartan realize no one is agreeing with him on this front? Give it a rest. Tulsa is not "vastly superior" with retail options, both markets just have stuff the other market doesn't. And Penn Sq. as a mall has to carry a wide variety of retail options. I've also noticed that every time a space becomes available, they usually fill it with a more upscale and new to the market tenant than was there before.

[soonerguru]

Personally, I'm not that impressed with Utica Square, it's just as outdated as Nichols Hills Plaza, and has less retailers.

Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods?

[metro]

Yes, they are ok, but the buildings in Utica Square are old and could use some updating, just like NHP.

[progressiveboy]

Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods?

Crescent Market is the equivilent of Petty's just as good if not better! Since I do not shop at Balliets I have heard that Balliets is the equivilent of Miss J if not superior. Only thing US has over NHP is Saks. I always heard it is one of their marginal underperforming stores in the region, however I also hear they pay "dirt" cheap rent so that is what keeps them in business.

[soonerguru]

Balliet's is not in Nichols Hills Plaza. There are no department stores at all at NHP.

[Swake2]

Tulsa World: New group puts forth plan for East Village

[okclee]

More Great News for Tulsa!!

This is the kind of developer that is needed in downtown OKC!

[Architect2010]

Sweet. Ambitious plan for Tulsa. I hope it comes through. I'd like to see some renderings however.

[metro]

Look at all those vacant lots in DT Tulsa.

[Spartan]

Everybody in this thread needs to chill. Why are we getting the big head in OKC? What have we accomplished? It is true, we've come longer than almost anyone in such a short time since we begun our revitalization--we were a pretty rough city back in 1990. That attitude and dedication that came out of desperation, especially after April 1995, is what carried this city to the top of "Tier 3" cities (Tulsa, Omaha, Louisville, Little Rock, etc).

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

If there is anything that has not changed at all since 1990, it's retail. Let's all take a step back and admit to ourselves what we have for retail, which aint ****. I'm not trying to insult people, but come on, admit it--even if it's beneath you to admit that Tulsa, Birmingham, and Richmond have better retail, you can at least admit that OKC should have much, much better retail.

Now look at Tulsa objectively, not as that other city in the state that you've probably never been to. Most of us here (that are sane) agree that OKC's problem in attracting the retailers we want is a lack of available space. Developers in our city are still not very close to developing a suitable space that these retailers can locate in. That's the truth. What this city has to offer, Classen Curve, Penn Square, 50 Penn Place--not exactly what Urban Outfitters is looking for, despite that most of them are interested in OKC. So the fact that Tulsa clearly has one of the best lifestyle centers (built in the early 20th Century, making it about 80 years ahead of its time) simply puts Tulsa in a different league than OKC. Also, having a Whole Foods (considering a "big league" retailer, kind of like having an NBA/NFL franchise in the retail world) puts Tulsa in a different league. Anthropologie is another one that says you've arrived (or it would for OKC).

As for this Talaas development, it's incredibly exciting and I'm very hopeful..although in years of watching DT Tulsa development just as I've watched OKC's, I've never seen a large-scale development in DT Tulsa that was successful. Tulsa Channels, Downtown River District/west bank thing, East End, Franklin Square, and so on.. I've seen about a dozen that got me excited and then disappointed me. DT Tulsa has been infinitely more successful than OKC with the smaller-scale projects though, just based on the track record, I just don't see a large-scale project coming off--though I'll be watching One Place closely, fingers crossed..so far so good.

[ljbab728]

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

Spartan, I don't think anyone here has ever said that this city's retail options are fine and that we shouldn't aspire for more. Of course we want as many options as possible. The main discussion should be about what the city, itself, and the general public can do to make that happen that they aren't already doing. You can't put a gun to a developer's head and say this is what you're going to build.

[Spartan]

That's true. But maybe if we can at least put our finger on the obvious reason such retail is lacking here, maybe the Chamber's "specialist" working on it will figure it out eventually, too.

[Kerry]

It is about time someone else gets it.

Although city approval would be needed for installation of the needed rails, the developers would pay the estimated $7 million cost, and the streetcar would be free to ride.

Read more from this Tulsa World article at Tulsa World: New group puts forth plan for East Village

Fair recovery on most transit systems is so low it cost more to collect money than if just let people ride for free and fund the operation thru advertising.

[Oil Capital]

Everybody in this thread needs to chill. Why are we getting the big head in OKC? What have we accomplished? It is true, we've come longer than almost anyone in such a short time since we begun our revitalization--we were a pretty rough city back in 1990. That attitude and dedication that came out of desperation, especially after April 1995, is what carried this city to the top of "Tier 3" cities (Tulsa, Omaha, Louisville, Little Rock, etc).

But come on, have some perspective. You all didn't wake up and suddenly find yourselves living in Austin or Seattle, despite the Sonics debacle (lol). This is still OKC. We still have problems, and that's not a negative thing--that means that we still have solutions that need to be implemented and opportunity to be realized. Before you can fix something you have to identify the problem though. I am amazed that people from OKC could possibly have such a big head that they are fine with this city's retail options.

If there is anything that has not changed at all since 1990, it's retail. Let's all take a step back and admit to ourselves what we have for retail, which aint ****. I'm not trying to insult people, but come on, admit it--even if it's beneath you to admit that Tulsa, Birmingham, and Richmond have better retail, you can at least admit that OKC should have much, much better retail.

Now look at Tulsa objectively, not as that other city in the state that you've probably never been to. Most of us here (that are sane) agree that OKC's problem in attracting the retailers we want is a lack of available space. Developers in our city are still not very close to developing a suitable space that these retailers can locate in. That's the truth. What this city has to offer, Classen Curve, Penn Square, 50 Penn Place--not exactly what Urban Outfitters is looking for, despite that most of them are interested in OKC. So the fact that Tulsa clearly has one of the best lifestyle centers (built in the early 20th Century, making it about 80 years ahead of its time) simply puts Tulsa in a different league than OKC. Also, having a Whole Foods (considering a "big league" retailer, kind of like having an NBA/NFL franchise in the retail world) puts Tulsa in a different league. Anthropologie is another one that says you've arrived (or it would for OKC).

Spartan's use of dishonest rhetorical devices (straw men, ad hominem attacks, made-up statistics) is quite remarkable. One gets the idea he is really auditioning for a job as a politician's speechwriter.

[metro]

Spartan, were you even old enough to shop in the early 1990's? In case you don't remember other than BabyGap, Penn Square sucked back then. Simon has completely transformed it and continues to lure some high end retailers (Coach, Apple, WHBM, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, etc. etc.). As ljbab pointed out, no one is saying they are satisfied with our current retail selections and don't want anymore. FYI, we're getting a Container Store soon. You have to admit that Tulsa isn't that superior and we have options they don't and vice versa. Utica Square is old and could use some serious updating, especially the north end of the center. Saks is in an old dumpy building on the outside and there are vacant storefronts in the center. As someone stated, there is no waiting list, Harolds was empty for several years. It' ain't Dallas and if you're so moved by Tulsa, why don't you move there from Calgary and help Tulsa continue the momentum?

Oil Capital - Spartan's use of dishonest rhetorical devices (straw men, ad hominem attacks, made-up statistics) is quite remarkable. One gets the idea he is really auditioning for a job as a politician's speechwriter.

Touche' - The word "touché" is also often used in popular culture and general conversation — for example, in an argument or debate — to commend someone on a clever response to an argument.

[jdcf]

Wow. That is ridiculous. Utica Square easily has twice the amount of retail as Nichols Hills Plaza. Have you been to Saks? Miss Jackson's? Petty's Fine Foods?

Utica Square also has the Thursday evening concerts during the summer months, kind of like Jazz in June all summer long.