Council resolution to accept 5% paycut

[OSUFan]

A wiser, older person mentioned that Mr. Couch might have done the interveiw with the Sentinel to see what the public opinion would be. Give this interview, wait a week and do some polling. Test the waters, so to speak.

If that is the case why the Sentinel?

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

I would think that is crap considering a certain incident that happened downtown about 15 years ago.

I agree with you completely. I was just trying to let these people know how serious this is by poking some fun at them. Nobody wants their neighborhood fire station closed, but thats exactly what is going to happen, not to mention staffing any future stations. Such much for keeping up with the city growth.

OKC has not built a new fire station in 15 years. I can assure you that we have been building houses and developing neighborhoods like wildfire in OKC for the last 15 years, not to mention the increase in population.

Still, the city choses to keep their head stuck in the sand and not want to address the reality and/or state of the city.

[LakeEffect]

OKC has not built a new fire station in 15 years. I can assure you that we have been building houses and developing neighborhoods like wildfire in OKC for the last 15 years, not to mention the increase in population.

Still, the city choses to keep their head stuck in the sand and not want to address the reality and/or state of the city.

Isn't Station 4 under construction right now, moving to Hogback & Memorial? Also, the 2007 GO Bond Election approved new stations to be constructed at SE 149th & Douglas, SW 104th & Council, and SW 59th & Richland... so it's not completely fair to say that OKC and Fire aren't actually planning for an expanding populous.

I know the response back - there won't be firefighters to fill those new stations, unless we close existing, or find some other way to create new funding. I agree, that's a huge issue that should be taken up ASAP.

[Mikemarsh51]

I believe BTB was talking about additional stations. Those new stations are projected to be 6, 8 and 12 years respectively away form reality. That's twenty years and more between additional stations. The cities growth won't even be close to being kept up with.

#26 119th and Rockwell 6 years away
#38 59th and Richland 8 years away
#29 149th and Douglas 12 years away

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

I believe BTB was talking about additional stations. Those new stations are projected to be 6, 8 and 12 years respectively away form reality. That's twenty years and more between additional stations. The cities growth won't even be close to being kept up with.

#26 119th and Rockwell 6 years away
#38 59th and Richland 8 years away
#29 149th and Douglas 12 years away

These are the stations that I was referring too in my last post from the GO BOND 2007. The earliest that one is planning on being completed in 2016.
These stations are new ones, not replacing existing ones. By the time these stations get built we will be needing 3 or 4 more.

The one at SW 119th and Rockwell was needed about 5 years ago when development churned up in that area of the city.

[ljbab728]

These are the stations that I was referring too in my last post from the GO BOND 2007. The earliest that one is planning on being completed in 2016.
These stations are new ones, not replacing existing ones. By the time these stations get built we will be needing 3 or 4 more.

The one at SW 119th and Rockwell was needed about 5 years ago when development churned up in that area of the city.

I'm sure that a station is need in that area but SW 119th and Rockwell is not heavily developed. It is still mostly rural estates with a small amount of regular housing additions. The city can't be expected to build a new station for every new addition that is developed.

[MikeOKC]

Did anybody find out if Couch would be subject to the cuts?

[Larry OKC]

Did anybody find out if Couch would be subject to the cuts?

Don't know about him personally, but if you look at the recent cuts made this fiscal year (primarily unfilled positions), his office got cut too.

[LakeEffect]

I'm sure that a station is need in that area but SW 119th and Rockwell is not heavily developed. It is still mostly rural estates with a small amount of regular housing additions. The city can't be expected to build a new station for every new addition that is developed.

This is a fundamental question of planning. Do you follow growth and expand City services to provide the same type of coverage that you provide in the original urban areas, or do you keep coverage at a lesser level and keep services internal.

Should people who move way out expect 4 minute engine service and 8 minute ladder service? If they do, who is going to pay? All citizens? Just the outer citizens?

The City doesn't seem to have ever thought this far out. It has a Comprehensive Plan (created in 1977, updated in 1989 and 2000), but few Departments even know about it and follow it. The Comp Plan contains language about keeping growth and services aligned, but it's obvious that the City has outgrown itself and not been able to recover the increased service cost...

On another note, the City Manager's employment is being discussed by City Council in executive session on Tuesday. The agenda doesn't indicate what the discussion includes, but this is a yearly thing, and I think his pay is considered then. I doubt staff will see an overall pay cut... I think the departments all have plans to reduce budgets without pay changes.

[ljbab728]

This is a fundamental question of planning. Do you follow growth and expand City services to provide the same type of coverage that you provide in the original urban areas, or do you keep coverage at a lesser level and keep services internal.

Should people who move way out expect 4 minute engine service and 8 minute ladder service? If they do, who is going to pay? All citizens? Just the outer citizens?

The City doesn't seem to have ever thought this far out. It has a Comprehensive Plan (created in 1977, updated in 1989 and 2000), but few Departments even know about it and follow it. The Comp Plan contains language about keeping growth and services aligned, but it's obvious that the City has outgrown itself and not been able to recover the increased service cost...

Those who move to the far flung suburban areas have to accept some responsibility for not being near city services. An example which is not a responsibility of the City but has to be taken into account is access to hospitals. There are many other types of services and activities desired that have to be sacrificed to some extent to live in those areas. I have lived in both the suburbs and in the city and have never complained about what the services are based on where I lived. I knew that ahead of time.

[Mikemarsh51]

ljbab728, there may be a grain of reality in your statement. I have this idea of you driving by a burned down house in the rural part of town and you saying, "it's their fault that happened, after all they chose to live there". Those people who live out the pay their taxes same as you. The did vote for more protection and it will come. Don't feel bad, they are closing stations in town. Station 11 at 50th and Western will be one of the first. I'm wondering what the folks around McGuinness are going to say when that station closes?

[ljbab728]

ljbab728, there may be a grain of reality in your statement. I have this idea of you driving by a burned down house in the rural part of town and you saying, "it's their fault that happened, after all they chose to live there". Those people who live out the pay their taxes same as you. The did vote for more protection and it will come. Don't feel bad, they are closing stations in town. Station 11 at 50th and Western will be one of the first. I'm wondering what the folks around McGuinness are going to say when that station closes?

Mike, you are at least partly right. Those people knew what the services are when they moved there and shouldn't expect that just because they pay their taxes they will receive more service than what was already available. If the City agrees to make changes and can fund it that's great. Does someone living at 119th and Rockwell expect to have city bus services? Losing services in an area where it already exists is an entirely different matter and I won't disagree with you about that.

[kevinpate]

... Station 11 at 50th and Western will be one of the first. I'm wondering what the folks around McGuinness are going to say when that station closes?

Is closure set as part of meeting targets for the planned budget reduction for 2010-11, or is it slated to close for a different reason?

Irrespective of the reason for the closure of the station, what station(s) will be tasked to provide coverage for the area after Station 11 closes, and where are they located?

Will all the personnel staffed in Station 11 have their positions eliminated, or will some staff positions at one or more new stations?

Where does Station 11 equipment end up after closure?

Just curious, and imagine others may be as well.

[LakeEffect]

I'm curious about the overall budget report. I assume that, like police, cuts of personnel are the last part of the proposed 12% cut proposal. What are the other parts of the cut? Is there anything else to cut before personnel?

[Larry OKC]

At least one Councilman has stated we are past the point of cutting office supply expenses (due to the tight budgets of at least the past couple of years and the actual cuts this fiscal year). The next step is personnel (positions themselves and/or the related costs...insurance, furloughs, pay rates, vacation etc, etc).

[BOBTHEBUILDER]

This is a fundamental question of planning. Do you follow growth and expand City services to provide the same type of coverage that you provide in the original urban areas, or do you keep coverage at a lesser level and keep services internal.

Should people who move way out expect 4 minute engine service and 8 minute ladder service? If they do, who is going to pay? All citizens? Just the outer citizens?

The City doesn't seem to have ever thought this far out. It has a Comprehensive Plan (created in 1977, updated in 1989 and 2000), but few Departments even know about it and follow it. The Comp Plan contains language about keeping growth and services aligned, but it's obvious that the City has outgrown itself and not been able to recover the increased service cost...

On another note, the City Manager's employment is being discussed by City Council in executive session on Tuesday. The agenda doesn't indicate what the discussion includes, but this is a yearly thing, and I think his pay is considered then. I doubt staff will see an overall pay cut... I think the departments all have plans to reduce budgets without pay changes.

I dont believe for a minute that the city has a long term plan for public safety other than cuts. They have done a poor job of keeping up with the population growth. Public safety is not a priority for the city and has not been for 15 years. Of course PS eats up about 2/3 of the budget, but the public safety funding source is 20 years outdated.

The priorities that the city are committed too are developing bricktown and the core to shore plan. They are going to do "whatever that takes" to do that. I am all for the C2S and bricktown development, but public safety has to keep up with that development and it has not.

About response times for fire and police, the people that live in the outer fringe of the city pay their taxes also. The city has an obligation and a duty to provide them with adequate police and fire protection. All citizens are going to pay for this, just as all citizens are paying for MAPS. As far as a bus route and other things like that, save your money and use those services where they are doing the most good, in the inner city.

I would be very suprised if the city mgr, his staff to include the dept heads will receive any pay cuts. If anything they will get a bonus for cutting the personnel in their respective departments.

About saving money for the city, I think the city spend entirely too much money on remodel projects as well as new construction projects.
For example, the new bricktown fire station is going to cost somewhere in the vicinity of 3 million dollars to build. I was told by a credible source that a fire station on the southside of the city was to require a new roof, total tearoff and replacement, to go back with comp shingles almost $ 60,000, or to go back with a metal roof almost $ 120,000. You have got to be kidding me, are they going to use "gold" to roof this station with. Either way, I think that a reputable roofing contractor could do this project for a quarter to a third of what this bid is for.

MWC, just built 4 new fire stations for a total of 4.5 million dollars.
Moore is in the process of doing the same thing.
OKC fire stations are more than double the price of the ones in other metro cities. Why is that????? HMMMMMM. I have been in the ones in MWC, they are state of the art and they are energy efficient. So what gives.
Could it be OKC's bid process? Could it be the outlandish architecture fees?
Could it be whomever is getting these bids is getting some kickbacks?
Do we need to change the way that the city does this process to eliminate the probability of impropriety. What the hell are we doing wrong?

Oh for the record, I am a home builder/ land developer outside of the OKC limits, so I do not have any sort of interest financially or otherwise in any OK city projects or C2S or bricktown. Just trying to help trim the fat, if that is truly the goal here and not to trim personnel from public safety.

I cant wait for the thoughts.....

[okcsmokeandfire]

I dont believe for a minute that the city has a long term plan for public safety other than cuts. They have done a poor job of keeping up with the population growth. Public safety is not a priority for the city and has not been for 15 years. Of course PS eats up about 2/3 of the budget, but the public safety funding source is 20 years outdated.

The priorities that the city are committed too are developing bricktown and the core to shore plan. They are going to do "whatever that takes" to do that. I am all for the C2S and bricktown development, but public safety has to keep up with that development and it has not.

About response times for fire and police, the people that live in the outer fringe of the city pay their taxes also. The city has an obligation and a duty to provide them with adequate police and fire protection. All citizens are going to pay for this, just as all citizens are paying for MAPS. As far as a bus route and other things like that, save your money and use those services where they are doing the most good, in the inner city.

I would be very suprised if the city mgr, his staff to include the dept heads will receive any pay cuts. If anything they will get a bonus for cutting the personnel in their respective departments.

About saving money for the city, I think the city spend entirely too much money on remodel projects as well as new construction projects.
For example, the new bricktown fire station is going to cost somewhere in the vicinity of 3 million dollars to build. I was told by a credible source that a fire station on the southside of the city was to require a new roof, total tearoff and replacement, to go back with comp shingles almost $ 60,000, or to go back with a metal roof almost $ 120,000. You have got to be kidding me, are they going to use "gold" to roof this station with. Either way, I think that a reputable roofing contractor could do this project for a quarter to a third of what this bid is for.

MWC, just built 4 new fire stations for a total of 4.5 million dollars.
Moore is in the process of doing the same thing.
OKC fire stations are more than double the price of the ones in other metro cities. Why is that????? HMMMMMM. I have been in the ones in MWC, they are state of the art and they are energy efficient. So what gives.
Could it be OKC's bid process? Could it be the outlandish architecture fees?
Could it be whomever is getting these bids is getting some kickbacks?
Do we need to change the way that the city does this process to eliminate the probability of impropriety. What the hell are we doing wrong?

Oh for the record, I am a home builder/ land developer outside of the OKC limits, so I do not have any sort of interest financially or otherwise in any OK city projects or C2S or bricktown. Just trying to help trim the fat, if that is truly the goal here and not to trim personnel from public safety.

I cant wait for the thoughts.....

Bob, contrary to what the city wants us to believe, public safety eats up 2/3 of every other city budget as well, we are no different. However, Oklahoma City has a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax supposedly earmarked for public safety. That dedicated sales tax provides general fund relief to the tune of 70 million dollars a year. In other words, that is 70 million dollars less a year that OKC has to spend out of its general fund to fund the police and fire.
That 3/4 cent sales tax was more than adequate 20 years ago. Due to increased personnel costs, insurance and the like it appears that it is not a sufficient funding source any longer. We need to look at increasing this tax to a full one cent.

[okcsmokeandfire]

At least one Councilman has stated we are past the point of cutting office supply expenses (due to the tight budgets of at least the past couple of years and the actual cuts this fiscal year). The next step is personnel (positions themselves and/or the related costs...insurance, furloughs, pay rates, vacation etc, etc).

Larry, you are correct, we have been taking budget cuts even in the good times, we are way past office supply and toilet paper cuts. We are to the personnel cuts, either in wages or positions.

I really think that the worst of this is behind us. We had a bad last 12-13 months in sales tax revenue. I am optimistic that sales tax revenues are going up at this time. I am hopeful that when the tax revenues return in the very near future that PS concessions and cuts are taken off of the table.
Lets get past all of this budget woe stuff, shop in OKC.
Remember, the new crest is going to be opening for business soon, hopefully we can get back some tax revenue from surrounding cities when it opens and keep it.

[andy157]

Bob, contrary to what the city wants us to believe, public safety eats up 2/3 of every other city budget as well, we are no different. However, Oklahoma City has a dedicated 3/4 cent sales tax supposedly earmarked for public safety. That dedicated sales tax provides general fund relief to the tune of 70 million dollars a year. In other words, that is 70 million dollars less a year that OKC has to spend out of its general fund to fund the police and fire.
That 3/4 cent sales tax was more than adequate 20 years ago. Due to increased personnel costs, insurance and the like it appears that it is not a sufficient funding source any longer. We need to look at increasing this tax to a full one cent.

The 3/4 cent sales tax does in fact provide relief to the General Fund, in more ways than one. First, had there never been a special tax created, the additional stations, equipment, and manpower would still have been needed, and the General Fund would have had to pay the cost. Second, the General Fund receives additional relief from the special tax in the millions of dollars, 11 million this year. Third, the City has come up with creative ways to funnel special tax funds into the General Fund. This year for instance, $961,777. under the guise of an "other" project to fund the cost of 15 additional Fire recruits over and above the normal 951, which don't exist anywhere but on paper. The 3/4 cent special tax is adequate to fund what it was meant to fund if the City would stop putting such a drain on it.

[Steve]

This is a fundamental question of planning. Do you follow growth and expand City services to provide the same type of coverage that you provide in the original urban areas, or do you keep coverage at a lesser level and keep services internal.

Should people who move way out expect 4 minute engine service and 8 minute ladder service? If they do, who is going to pay? All citizens? Just the outer citizens?

The City doesn't seem to have ever thought this far out. It has a Comprehensive Plan (created in 1977, updated in 1989 and 2000), but few Departments even know about it and follow it. The Comp Plan contains language about keeping growth and services aligned, but it's obvious that the City has outgrown itself and not been able to recover the increased service cost...

On another note, the City Manager's employment is being discussed by City Council in executive session on Tuesday. The agenda doesn't indicate what the discussion includes, but this is a yearly thing, and I think his pay is considered then. I doubt staff will see an overall pay cut... I think the departments all have plans to reduce budgets without pay changes.

Careful there Cafe - you're asking the sort of common sense, smart questions that cost Garner Stoll his job. We want it all - unrestricted growth, low taxes, and police and fire protection for every square mile of farmland that gets turned into yet another neighborhood filled with homes that look just like thousands of others built this past decade.
I really wonder what will happen to these neighborhoods in 30 years when they are no longer new and trendy. And how will we maintain the increased level of police and fire protection to these areas as they age and go downhill? (trust me folks, they will. I don't see anything that will make these areas the next Crown Heights, Quail Creek, Heritage Hills or Mesta Park).
Here's the thing folks: in my 20 years I've never heard the police or fire unions say "stop the development - we can't keep up with the growth." I've never heard a council member say "we need a moratorium on housing development in my ward - we can't keep up with the growth." I've never heard a developer say "We should make this rural area off limits to more development - we can't keep up with the growth."
It's interesting to see how crashes occur - the warnings are out there, and yet people move forward as if there will never be a bill to pay at the end of the party. Good luck with that...

[ljbab728]

[QUOTE=BOBTHEBUILDER;316027] Could it be whomever is getting these bids is getting some kickbacks? /QUOTE]

Bob, you make a lot of good points but unless you have some information to back this up, it is reckless statement.

[andy157]

If we are concerned about sprawl and its effect on providing cost effective services, such as Public Safety, there is a solution. Following Councilman Marrs suggestion that department heads should identify certain services to be discontinued, and not in the short term until the economy gets better, but from now on. I can think of a simple way to save the City close to 2 million a year, shut down Fire Station #32.

Station 32 is in Ward 8, and for those who are not aware it is the Surry Hills station, in far,far N.W. OKC.

The station houses an Engine and a Brush Pumper and is staffed with 18 Firefighters (3 shifts of 6). When you consider that in a years time they make few if any actual house fires and less than 400 total calls, it seems like a waste of 2 million dollars.

In the rare instance of a house fire why not simply hope no one is home, but if someone should be, then pray they get out in time, and let it burn. If only 2 or 3 burned down a year, at $200-250 k each the City could pay them off and be money ahead.

I'm not sure if the Fire Chief wants to go there and who could blame him. But Marrs could. I'm sure Councilman Ryan would be on board.

[rcjunkie]

[QUOTE=andy157;316246]If we are concerned about sprawl and its effect on providing cost effective services, such as Public Safety, there is a solution. Following Councilman Marrs suggestion that department heads should identify certain services to be discontinued, and not in the short term until the economy gets better, but from now on. I can think of a simple way to save the City close to 2 million a year, shut down Fire Station #32.

Station 32 is in Ward 8, and for those who are not aware it is the Surry Hills station, in far,far N.W. OKC.

The station houses an Engine and a Brush Pumper and is staffed with 18 Firefighters (3 shifts of 6). When you consider that in a years time they make few if any actual house fires and less than 400 total calls, it seems like a waste of 2 million dollars.

In the rare instance of a house fire why not simply hope no one is home, but if someone should be, then pray they get out in time, and let it burn. If only 2 or 3 burned down a year, at $200-250 k each the City could pay them off and be money ahead.

I'm not sure if the Fire Chief wants to go there and who could blame him. But Marrs could. I'm sure Councilman Ryan would be on board.[/QUOTE

Sounds like your proving a point for those that disagree with the firefighters re: staffing. Your saying that St. 32 is not needed, therefore the 18 Firefighters that house there are not needed.

[andy157]

[QUOTE=rcjunkie;316247]

If we are concerned about sprawl and its effect on providing cost effective services, such as Public Safety, there is a solution. Following Councilman Marrs suggestion that department heads should identify certain services to be discontinued, and not in the short term until the economy gets better, but from now on. I can think of a simple way to save the City close to 2 million a year, shut down Fire Station #32.

Station 32 is in Ward 8, and for those who are not aware it is the Surry Hills station, in far,far N.W. OKC.

The station houses an Engine and a Brush Pumper and is staffed with 18 Firefighters (3 shifts of 6). When you consider that in a years time they make few if any actual house fires and less than 400 total calls, it seems like a waste of 2 million dollars.

In the rare instance of a house fire why not simply hope no one is home, but if someone should be, then pray they get out in time, and let it burn. If only 2 or 3 burned down a year, at $200-250 k each the City could pay them off and be money ahead.

I'm not sure if the Fire Chief wants to go there and who could blame him. But Marrs could. I'm sure Councilman Ryan would be on board.[/QUOTE

Sounds like your proving a point for those that disagree with the firefighters re: staffing. Your saying that St. 32 is not needed, therefore the 18 Firefighters that house there are not needed.

Seems to me the only people who have a real problem with staffing is the C.M., the Mayor, and the Council. They can solve the problem,, each of them needs to select 1 station from their respective wards and close it down. Suck it up and cut staffing, or quit whinning about it. If they do cut the 140 or so Firefighters like they have threatened to do, do you think they will repeal the extra 3/4 cent tax they're collecting that was meant to hire those 140?

[Wambo36]

Sounds like your proving a point for those that disagree with the firefighters re: staffing. Your saying that St. 32 is not needed, therefore the 18 Firefighters that house there are not needed.

I think your misreading it rc. I think what he's saying is that if councilman Marrs is serious about making these cuts, that he's called for, he needs to step up and let his constituents in the far NW corner of his ward know that he finds them expendable. As far as that goes, every councilman can make the same decision about their wards. Identify the area that they deem excess and let those people know they are an excessive burden on the system. Of course, then they have to pay for these decisions at the ballot box at the next election. That's why I won't be holding my breath waiting. They are, after all politicians. If these decisions are made, the politicians that called for them will stay as far from the fray as possible.

If he thinks closing that station, and leaving the people in those neighborhoods at least 10 minutes from the nearest help, is a feasible solution then he needs to suggest it and own it. Same thing for each one of them. I don't see that happening and I think thats what Andy is saying.