Widgets Magazine
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

  1. #1

    Default MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    "Wenger selected to lead MAPS 3 program" MAPS3 Press Release TwitDoc.com - the EASY way to share your documents on Twitter

  2. #2

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Sorry but this doesn't bode well for MAPS 3

    "He is a proven leader with experience in delivering MAPS and MAPS for Kids projects in budget and on time" -- City Manager Jim Couch

    Mr. Wenger "served as Project manager for the design and construction of the Bricktown Ballpark and Downtown Arena."
    Overall, MAPS projects came in 47.75% over what voters were told ($237.6M), final cost was $351.7M.

    But specifically, lets look at the projects he was in charge of. Did they come in on budget?

    “Voter’s” amounts primarily from “Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan” (11/14/93) and Final Cost numbers are from the City’s Website.

    The Ballpark:
    Voter's: $21.8M
    Final: $34M
    OVER BUDGET: $12.2M (56% or 1.56 times)

    Arena (Ford Center)
    Voter's: $78.9M
    Final: $87.7M*
    OVER BUDGET: $8.8M (11% or 1.11 times**)

    *not including the additional $100M+ to bring the Ford back up to NBA standards that it was supposedly built to).

    **costs projections had far exceeded this amount but several items were deleted from the final building. The City's intent was to have the eventual tenant pay for the completion costs (see the additional $100M+ above).

    Both of the projects he headed were significantly behind schedule as well.

  3. #3

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Both of the projects he headed were significantly behind schedule as well.
    Sounds like we should start these projects now, seriously though why are they waiting so long to start anything? The sooner they start the cheaper it will be.. Constuction cost aren't going to be the same in 5 years.. I hope they figured that into the $777 million. When is the first project suppose to start? Has anyone said?

  4. Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Sorry but this doesn't bode well for MAPS 3



    Overall, MAPS projects came in 47.75% over what voters were told ($237.6M), final cost was $351.7M.

    But specifically, lets look at the projects he was in charge of. Did they come in on budget?

    “Voter’s” amounts primarily from “Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan” (11/14/93) and Final Cost numbers are from the City’s Website.

    The Ballpark:
    Voter's: $21.8M
    Final: $34M
    OVER BUDGET: $12.2M (56% or 1.56 times)

    Arena (Ford Center)
    Voter's: $78.9M
    Final: $87.7M*
    OVER BUDGET: $8.8M (11% or 1.11 times**)

    *not including the additional $100M+ to bring the Ford back up to NBA standards that it was supposedly built to).

    **costs projections had far exceeded this amount but several items were deleted from the final building. The City's intent was to have the eventual tenant pay for the completion costs (see the additional $100M+ above).

    Both of the projects he headed were significantly behind schedule as well.
    Coming in over budget doesn't necessarily mean poor leadership. These projects were being built on a pay-as-you-go basis, so the project didn't start until the funds were available.

    Steel costs skyrocketed unexpectedly in the late 1990s during a national construction surge. Granted, city leaders in 1993 should have counted this in, but there it is nonetheless.

    Not saying he is a good OR bad leader, only stressing that those projects coming in over budget doesn't signal poor leadership. He had both projects scaled back to get construction costs under control. They were still overbudget, yes, however, how much can you possibly scale back on a stadium before you start using shoddy material that doesn't last long?

    It would have been a poor decision if he allowed the original bids and designs to be approved and borrowed money to fund the cost overruns. But that didn't happen. Tulsa, on the other hand, had their Vision 2025 arena come in over budget and borrowed more to cover the gap on top of what they had already bonded. Yeah, they'll be paying off the bonds on Vision 2025 for a LONG time. Meanwhile, the original MAPS is paid for. Done. No interest, no bonds, but straight cash.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  5. #5

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Watson410 View Post
    Sounds like we should start these projects now, seriously though why are they waiting so long to start anything? The sooner they start the cheaper it will be.. Constuction cost aren't going to be the same in 5 years.. I hope they figured that into the $777 million. When is the first project suppose to start? Has anyone said?
    You have to have a steering committee before you can start making decisions like this. The leader was just appointed this week. Patience Danielson, just because we live in an instant gratification society, doesn't mean it will speed up the MAPS 3 process. We all want it as quickly as the other person, but decisions and analysis' like this take time.

  6. #6

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    *not including the additional $100M+ to bring the Ford back up to NBA standards that it was supposedly built to).
    The Ford Center already was at NBA standards (hint hint...the Hornets played there)...it was just the cheapest arena ($90m compared to other competing arenas from $200-350m).

    Seattle wouldn't upgrade to make their arena compete with the rest of the league, but we decided that we would upgrade to compete, looks like it was a good idea.

  7. #7

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    90 + 100 = 190, and we're having to compete with 200-350. Looks like we need to spend another 100 or so if we really want to be competitive.

  8. #8

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    It will be interesting to see how the committee stacks up.

  9. #9

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Watson410 View Post
    Sounds like we should start these projects now, seriously though why are they waiting so long to start anything? The sooner they start the cheaper it will be.. Constuction cost aren't going to be the same in 5 years.. I hope they figured that into the $777 million. When is the first project suppose to start? Has anyone said?
    The tax that will pay for the projects is either not yet being collected, or has only just begun. In other words, while the gurus and citizens have been dreaming, hoping, and voting, no money exists today, or not near enough to get busy, busy. (mind is suddenly blank on when MAPs 3 tax starts, but I'm thinking it is next month.)

    Sure they have options, e.g., securing the old postie bldg and the goodwill bldg. already, but of course there are costs associated with trying to do alot now and pay it back, plus interest, as M3 funds do become available.

    It's gonna happen, but it will not happen rapidly. Such is the nature of a (mostly) pay as you go plan.

  10. #10

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    In your analysis of two projects Eric Wenger did 15 years ago, perhaps you might also throw in the fact that he has been responsible the past 9 years for the entire MAPS for Kids initiative, which includes 75 projects, not counting the many suburban projects, and that has come in on budget, on time, and scandal-free.

  11. #11

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCouch View Post
    In your analysis of two projects Eric Wenger did 15 years ago, perhaps you might also throw in the fact that he has been responsible the past 9 years for the entire MAPS for Kids initiative, which includes 75 projects, not counting the many suburban projects, and that has come in on budget, on time, and scandal-free.
    Well said.

    Also, project management at the City is not like project management in private industry. Project managers are more like facilitators; the budget, time lines, architects/engineers, and the construction contractors are decided by others. Project managers can hound A/Es and contractors to move along, but the initial budget is set by those above, and the project managers aren't involved in consultant selection. Contractors are lowest and best bidder... So, purely basing an analysis of Eric on items out of his control is unfair.

  12. #12

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by kevinpate View Post
    mind is suddenly blank on when MAPs 3 tax starts, but I'm thinking it is next month.
    April 1.

  13. #13

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyCornett View Post
    April 1.
    Thanks. I shoulda looked it up, but I was running late to do away with the evidence of a danged tasty burger.

  14. Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    I've never heard anything but the highest of praise for Eric Wenger. And the summary of the budgets for the MAPS projects listed above is grossly out of context.

  15. #15

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by workman45 View Post
    It will be interesting to see how the committee stacks up.
    If at all.

  16. #16

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Overall, MAPS projects came in 47.75% over what voters were told ($237.6M), final cost was $351.7M.

    But specifically, lets look at the projects he was in charge of. Did they come in on budget?

    “Voter’s” amounts primarily from “Major-league status sought voters to decide on $237.6 million plan” (11/14/93) and Final Cost numbers are from the City’s Website.

    The Ballpark:
    Voter's: $21.8M
    Final: $34M
    OVER BUDGET: $12.2M (56% or 1.56 times)

    Arena (Ford Center)
    Voter's: $78.9M
    Final: $87.7M*
    OVER BUDGET: $8.8M (11% or 1.11 times**)
    What was the alternative Larry? Build half-ass projects just so they would stick to a made up budget estimate. You kind of strike me as the type of person that buys at the cheap end of the scale and then complains when all your stuff doesn't work after a few uses.

    I had a friend like you once. We went with him and his wife to Disney World and while we were there they got in a huge fight over a $3 bottle of water. She was thirsty and he thought the water cost too much. A trip that cost them $125 was ruined because of a $3 cost over run on water. If the bottle of water cost $12 would still be smart to ruin the trip over it?

  17. #17

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by andy157 View Post
    90 + 100 = 190, and we're having to compete with 200-350. Looks like we need to spend another 100 or so if we really want to be competitive.
    Andy, you can't just go on cost comparison. The price of building a house on either coasts can be two to three times as much as here and the same is true of other construction.

  18. #18

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    Andy, you can't just go on cost comparison. The price of building a house on either coasts can be two to three times as much as here and the same is true of other construction.
    I know. I was just going off of Casey's reasoning and his justification for spending another 100 mil. on an arena that was already up to NBA standards.

  19. #19

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCouch View Post
    In your analysis of two projects Eric Wenger did 15 years ago, perhaps you might also throw in the fact that he has been responsible the past 9 years for the entire MAPS for Kids initiative, which includes 75 projects, not counting the many suburban projects, and that has come in on budget, on time, and scandal-free.
    Do you have any links or support on that (other than the City saying so?).

    Granted there has been scant reporting on MAPS for Kids program (compared to MAPS), but does it seem reasonable that given all of the delays and cost over runs with just 9 projects, that there wouldn't be any of that with 75 projects? Then there are all of the suburban projects that you mentioned.

    Maybe there hasn't been any investigative reporting on it because everything has indeed been brought in on time and on budget. But the odds seem decidedly against that notion. Perhaps the lack of reporting hasn't been because of lack of problems but a lack of resources or willingness of the various media to report on it. Then there is the enormity of the number of projects themselves. The media seems to have been focused on the various leadership challenges the OKC school district has had during that time period. IMO

  20. #20

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    What was the alternative Larry? Build half-ass projects just so they would stick to a made up budget estimate. ...
    With one project in particular, that describes what happened fairly accurately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    You kind of strike me as the type of person that buys at the cheap end of the scale and then complains when all your stuff doesn't work after a few uses.

    I had a friend like you once. We went with him and his wife to Disney World and while we were there they got in a huge fight over a $3 bottle of water. She was thirsty and he thought the water cost too much. A trip that cost them $125 was ruined because of a $3 cost over run on water. If the bottle of water cost $12 would still be smart to ruin the trip over it?

    While it is true I am a "value for the money" guy, I learned a long time ago that sometimes the cheapest thing isn't the best value (as you said, "cheap" stuff is often that way). But that isn't the issue here, the issue is City leaders telling voters one thing, then delivering another. Just saying, expect much of the same with MAPS 3 (history has already been repeating itself up to this point).

    I wouldn't let it ruin the trip, but I would be a little peeved at the vendor if they advertised the water at $2, then turned around and charged me $3.

  21. #21

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by cafeboeuf View Post
    Well said.

    Also, project management at the City is not like project management in private industry. Project managers are more like facilitators; the budget, time lines, architects/engineers, and the construction contractors are decided by others. Project managers can hound A/Es and contractors to move along, but the initial budget is set by those above, and the project managers aren't involved in consultant selection. Contractors are lowest and best bidder... So, purely basing an analysis of Eric on items out of his control is unfair.
    Sounds like you are saying that the Project Manager doesn't have any control over the budgets etc? If that is the case, why did Mr. Couch even mention it (and incorrectly at that)?

  22. #22

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    ...Maybe there hasn't been any investigative reporting on it ....
    Dont expect the print media to do anything remotely investigative, much less reporting...

  23. #23

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Sounds like you are saying that the Project Manager doesn't have any control over the budgets etc? If that is the case, why did Mr. Couch even mention it (and incorrectly at that)?
    Their control is minimal. They do have some control to tell the A/E to remove items or look for cost cutting, but if a project needs more money, that always goes to higher up minds for approval. However, as the Maps for Kids director, Mr. Wenger has certainly had more control over budgets, so his track record there is fantastic.

    Also, a budget is always subject to its original creator... if the original budget project was missing a key element, or the price of a few elements skyrockets, the budget then must change. Why limit a project in the end if the person who created the initial estimate didn't foresee that oil and steel prices would increase much more than inflation?

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,512
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    I think there are some on here who have NO clue as to how development projects work. I deal worldwide with large commercial construction projects and can tell you that it is nearly impossible to totally forecast the cost of materials in projects that develop over long periods of time. For instance, the original estimates of the Devon tower have been reduced by almost 25%, not because the project manager was so smart, but from the time it was conceived til bids were let, the cost of materials plummeted due to the recession. Sometimes it works in reverse such as in the ballpark, etc. A couple of years ago we saw cost of copper piping rise nearly 300% within a few short months. Project costs skyrocketed. Steel did similarly. Concrete too. When there were few work crews available nationally with the building boom, labor costs escalated. Most vendors do not lock in pricing long term and the ones who do generally find themselves out of business when they are caught in an escalating market.

    The voters think they want pay as you go and over a long period, but the longer the period the more risk...period. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. To blame Wenger for the cost overruns is gross over-simplification and reveal the commenter to have no insight into the process. Original estimates are just that...estimates. Actual costs are not know until bidding takes place. Efficient oversight and proper contractor selection can save SOME cost, but not like many of you think. It is simple economics.

    Some people on here will be critical of any project the city does unless it fits their own personal agenda. That is sad. Fortunately, in general the citizenship and leadership is smarter than that.

  25. #25

    Default Re: MAPS 3 Leader chosen

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I think there are some on here who have NO clue as to how development projects work. I deal worldwide with large commercial construction projects and can tell you that it is nearly impossible to totally forecast the cost of materials in projects that develop over long periods of time. For instance, the original estimates of the Devon tower have been reduced by almost 25%, not because the project manager was so smart, but from the time it was conceived til bids were let, the cost of materials plummeted due to the recession. Sometimes it works in reverse such as in the ballpark, etc. A couple of years ago we saw cost of copper piping rise nearly 300% within a few short months. Project costs skyrocketed. Steel did similarly. Concrete too. When there were few work crews available nationally with the building boom, labor costs escalated. Most vendors do not lock in pricing long term and the ones who do generally find themselves out of business when they are caught in an escalating market.

    The voters think they want pay as you go and over a long period, but the longer the period the more risk...period. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. To blame Wenger for the cost overruns is gross over-simplification and reveal the commenter to have no insight into the process. Original estimates are just that...estimates. Actual costs are not know until bidding takes place. Efficient oversight and proper contractor selection can save SOME cost, but not like many of you think. It is simple economics.

    Some people on here will be critical of any project the city does unless it fits their own personal agenda. That is sad. Fortunately, in general the citizenship and leadership is smarter than that.

    Well said and only too true.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. 2010 State of the City Address
    By zachnash in forum General Civic Issues
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 01-17-2010, 05:02 PM
  2. MAPS Fundraising Reports
    By betts in forum General Civic Issues
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 12-05-2009, 08:55 PM
  3. New info on MAPS 3
    By metro in forum General Civic Issues
    Replies: 533
    Last Post: 12-02-2009, 10:56 AM
  4. MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...
    By warreng88 in forum General Civic Issues
    Replies: 220
    Last Post: 09-28-2009, 08:14 AM
  5. MAPS Impact continues
    By Patrick in forum General Civic Issues
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-22-2005, 12:53 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO