Again, Tulsa gets the first store

[OKCTalker]

Although Aubrey has lots of friends and fans in Nichols Hills, he can't blame residents for objecting to his plans. With typical secrecy, he asked for a blank check on his development plans and was told "no." Yes, a huge chunk of the Nichols Hills municipal tax base is from retail sales tax collections at NHP, so clearing a big chunk of it for construction would severely impact city revenues, and he didn't have an answer for that either. As this was all being deliberated, gas prices were starting to plunge, Aubrey's CHK margin call came in October 2008, and the stock market fell apart the next month.

[circuitboard]

Well only one place on utica square map is empty, #24, seems small, but does make sense the Anthropologie in highland park village, in Dallas, is small also.

Utica Square - Map

[metro]

I think all the space vacated by Harold's is already occupied again- they had an outlet which is now Iron Starr Urban BBQ, and the main store which is now an expansion of Cafe Plaid. I think they also had offices in Sooner Theater, and that is Chipotle and Subway now.

I would think Campus Corner would be ideal for Urban/Antropologie, it is the most organic urban shopping district in the state next to the densest concentration of young, urban (future) professionals in the state.

It's Iron Starr BBQ & there is also an In The Raw Sushi

[metro]

I agree, Nichols Hills Plaza has a much nicer feel than Classen Curve ever will. Too bad they spent the money building the Curve instead of fixing up NHP. OKC's lack of a Utica Square-type area is the biggest detriment to not landing certain high end retailers, IMO.

FYI, they've already publically said that Nichols Hills Plaza renovations are next and will be done in 2 phases. Think of Classen Curve as a decent moving spot until the completely occupied Nichols Hills Plaza gets its renovations. And besides who knows, NONE of us know or have seen Chesapeakes master development plan for the area. It may all make sense once we see the bigger picture. Especially if say Whole Foods (which is rumored to be) moving in adjacent from the NE corner of Classen Curve.

[onthestrip]

So are you saying we should get rid of our "retail recruiter" or that our "retail recruiter" is doing a good job. Let me ask you this, in the last 4 years, what major retailers has the Chamber and CVB really landed. I don't buy the "NBA" answer as Bennett and Co. were already deadset on moving the team here.

I have no idea what retailer the chamber has landed, I guess when there is a new one I just credit the developer/broker that lands it. There is only so much OKC's recruiter can do, they definitely dont deserve the blame. Its mostly up to our city planners and developers. And I would imagine Allison Oshel is probably trying to attract bigger things than an Anthropoligie that will only employ a handful of people.

I know they hired someone to recruit retailers for the downtwon area but I doubt she (I think it was a she) will be able to attract much. You cant make retailers locate downtown when it is currently a retail wasteland. Once you get a couple more thousand DT residents things might change.

[onthestrip]

A lot of this changes with the new grocery store going in. It will draw high traffic, and will be an upper end retail location, a lot like utica square. And if ya think about it some...utica doesn't have good curb appeal either from the main street.

Classen Curve will be the closest thing OKC will ever have to Utica Square. The NH plaza is going to dry up with in the next couple of years. Lot of retailers will move to Classen Curve.

Utica doesnt need much curb appeal because it is a destination, has large anchors and many other smaller tenants. Having a Whole Foods near CC will bring more traffic but it being across the street certainly doesnt help CC very much.

And God help us if CC is the closest thing to Utica we will ever have. However, I dont think that will be the case, always will be something new and improved.

[scootinger]

Classen Curve will be the closest thing OKC will ever have to Utica Square. The NH plaza is going to dry up with in the next couple of years. Lot of retailers will move to Classen Curve.

Will ever have? Maybe for the next few years, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that OKC will never have any sort of retail development on par with Utica Square.

[brownb01]

Will ever have? Maybe for the next few years, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that OKC will never have any sort of retail development on par with Utica Square.

I hope you're right, but so far for the past 35 years...it hasn't happened.

Nichols Hills is the closest thing OKC has to Tulsa's midtown, if anything is to develop with the character of Utica, it will be in this area.

I think you guys will be surprised with CC after it all completed, whole foods and all. It will draw a certain type of crowd, simular to Utica Square, and with the growth of Chesapeake continuing, it will someday evolve into something to be proud off. Lots of areas very near to CC that could still be developed someday in far future, and house large anchor tenants!

[Chase]

I am glad to hear Oklahoma is getting more visibility from retailers. This is a high profile opening for the state in a down economy.

[BG918]

I think all the space vacated by Harold's is already occupied again- they had an outlet which is now Iron Starr Urban BBQ, and the main store which is now an expansion of Cafe Plaid. I think they also had offices in Sooner Theater, and that is Chipotle and Subway now.

I would think Campus Corner would be ideal for Urban/Antropologie, it is the most organic urban shopping district in the state next to the densest concentration of young, urban (future) professionals in the state.

The actual Harold's is still empty. Part of it was taken up by an expansion of Cafe Plaid but an Urban Outfitters or Anthropologie-sized chunk of space is still available.

[z28james]

For those who don't know me, I am the store manager of a certain kids plastic blocks store at Penn Square. I can tell you that from first hand experience the reasons why a certain specialty store came to OKC in ascending order, keep in mind that the people who pick where stores will be built are in Denmark. 1. They heard and read all the news stories on how great OKC was with growth and the NBA. 2. They liked the demographics. 3. They liked the mall and the low costs. Having said that off the record, they also looked at Tulsa for kicks and did not see any of those 3 on their visits, doesn't mean it isn't true though. Since there are only 39 stores in the the company, I think that says a lot that we have one, we are probably in the 2nd smallest market for our company, but lets just say we do more in sales than a lot of others.

As far as Antropologie, I have been told by mall workers(not mall management) that they are on the list of trying to get into Penn Square, but since its at 100% they have to wait, same with Forever 21.

[okclee]

What happened to the 50 Penn, retail?

It seems to me if the same people managed Penn Square were to manage 50 Penn we could add more stores.

Then if the managing company were to add some kind of free bus trolley to move people back and forth between the two malls, instant connection.

[OKCTalker]

50 Penn - Dead retail location for a long time, primarily due to ingress/egress issues, parking, competition from PSM, and tenants-in-common issues.

Simon Properties wouldn't develop synergy by owning two locations across from each other, especially with the TIC problem, and were they to near 100% occupancy at PSM, they'd simply raise rental rates.

[circuitboard]

I would like to see 50 Penn bulldozed and something similar to Park Lane constructed.

[z28james]

I read yesterday that Simon tied to buy GGP for 10 Billion, and GGP rejected it! I would have sold out and bought a tiny little island in the pacific and relax like on the Corona commercials.

[Jethrol]

CC will be successful because it's a new venue and will add flavor to the area. It will have higher end retail and it will have kind of a special appeal because it's turned in on itself....so when you're there, it'll feel more intimate and special.

NH Plaza will get a makeover. Chesapeake owns both locations and with the downturn in the economy/gas prices, certain plans had to be slowed down. That doesn't mean they were cancelled.

I love OKC but I can't for the life of me understand why so many of you dog new development so much. I remember when the first maps program was being proposed and many people in OKC just couldn't see the vision. I heard comments like, "We don't need a ditch in downtown OKC" and "Why spend so much for a new baseball park, we're still not getting a major league team" and many other comments that bashed the plans.

Now I didn't agree with all the original maps plans but I sure like what it's done for our city. There is no way we'd have the Thunder here if not for that original maps plan. Yeah I know...it didn't bring the Thunder here but it started the process of investing in our city in a big way and there is a direct line from that program all the way to where we are now.

Have a little more faith people. IMO the CC will be a HUGE success and provide a very unique shopping experience. 3-5 years from now, you'll agree with me.....just watch.

[icecold]

I would think Campus Corner would be ideal for Urban/Antropologie, it is the most organic urban shopping district in the state next to the densest concentration of young, urban (future) professionals in the state.

I am not sure I would say it is "ideal" but that being said I think it could work there. East Lansing, MI (where MSU is) has a campus corner a lot like Norman. They have an Urban Outfitters there and it was busy a random weekday when I was there, then again East Lansing is quite a bit more "urban" than Norman.

[brownb01]

CC will be successful because it's a new venue and will add flavor to the area. It will have higher end retail and it will have kind of a special appeal because it's turned in on itself....so when you're there, it'll feel more intimate and special.

NH Plaza will get a makeover. Chesapeake owns both locations and with the downturn in the economy/gas prices, certain plans had to be slowed down. That doesn't mean they were cancelled.

I love OKC but I can't for the life of me understand why so many of you dog new development so much. I remember when the first maps program was being proposed and many people in OKC just couldn't see the vision. I heard comments like, "We don't need a ditch in downtown OKC" and "Why spend so much for a new baseball park, we're still not getting a major league team" and many other comments that bashed the plans.

Now I didn't agree with all the original maps plans but I sure like what it's done for our city. There is no way we'd have the Thunder here if not for that original maps plan. Yeah I know...it didn't bring the Thunder here but it started the process of investing in our city in a big way and there is a direct line from that program all the way to where we are now.

Have a little more faith people. IMO the CC will be a HUGE success and provide a very unique shopping experience. 3-5 years from now, you'll agree with me.....just watch.

I agree 100%. You are right on track.

[BDP]

I'd say the biggest reason that you sometimes see this is that our best mall is full, not very big, and hard to get into. It is one of the highest grossing malls per square foot in the country.

The other reason is that no one who has had the opportunity to build anything for retail has basically chosen not to or compromised it to such a degree that no real retail synergy is achievable (lower bricktown is the best example. Automobile Alley is another).

Oklahoma City's density demographics for retail sucks and one of the few places to really capitalize and sell good demographics is always full and no attempt has really been made to overcome it.

That being said, I can't say that I'm going to lament not being first in the state to get the next mall chain store, because 1) I have the internet, 2) I don't go to the mall unless I have to, and 3) at this point, I'd much rather have the things we have that Tulsa doesn't than what they have and we don't. Obviously, that's simply personal preference, but I will certainly have more fun at NBA games than going to an Anthropolgie, for example.

Besides, didn't we get Apple first and a Lego store first? I know Lego's not "high end" (not sure that an "upscale" Urban Outfitters is high end either), but it's more fun and an example of that it does happen. But oh well... let the chain store envy continue...

[Spartan]

I think what may skew our stats is that so many of Tulsa's uber-rich live in the Midtown area, whereas ours live in Nichols Hills and Edmond.

Yeah, that's somewhat true. But the entire south side of Tulsa seems very affluent. It's hard to tell a difference in affluence from the area around 21st and Utica to the area around 41st and Lewis to the area around 81st and Yale to the area around 111th and Sheridan. My point is that it's all incredibly affluent.

The state's #1 highest income ZIP is Midtown Tulsa. #2 is far-south Tulsa, across the Arkansas River from Jenks. And speaking of Jenks, that's also a highly affluent rapidly-growing area. So is Bixby and Owasso, and BA is at least as "affluent" as Moore or Yukon (mix of middle class and upper-middle class).

BG918 hit it on the head. OKC lacks quality urban development like Tulsa has in abundance. 21st Street in Tulsa is just loaded with dense, urban development..that's attractive.

[dismayed]

It is really surprising how attractive pretty much any development that goes up in Tulsa is. In the OKC metro we just don't get the same long-term quality. I'm not sure why. I just don't believe that the issue is building codes.

[z28james]

I'd say the biggest reason that you sometimes see this is that our best mall is full, not very big, and hard to get into. It is one of the highest grossing malls per square foot in the country.

The other reason is that no one who has had the opportunity to build anything for retail has basically chosen not to or compromised it to such a degree that no real retail synergy is achievable (lower bricktown is the best example. Automobile Alley is another).

Oklahoma City's density demographics for retail sucks and one of the few places to really capitalize and sell good demographics is always full and no attempt has really been made to overcome it.

That being said, I can't say that I'm going to lament not being first in the state to get the next mall chain store, because 1) I have the internet, 2) I don't go to the mall unless I have to, and 3) at this point, I'd much rather have the things we have that Tulsa doesn't than what they have and we don't. Obviously, that's simply personal preference, but I will certainly have more fun at NBA games than going to an Anthropolgie, for example.

Besides, didn't we get Apple first and a Lego store first? I know Lego's not "high end" (not sure that an "upscale" Urban Outfitters is high end either), but it's more fun and an example of that it does happen. But oh well... let the chain store envy continue...

BDP, I would say you are correct. My store is certainly not high end, because the prices on our bricks are cheaper than TRU and Target, but its a destination store. 1/4th, I said 1/4th of my customers that come in are from out of state or Tulsa(Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, West Texas). And when summer hits its much higher. In most cases, a lot of people from the states north of us come down for a weekend trip to see us, then I would purposely tell them about Bricktown and Frontier City, Zoo, etc...and on their way back home they would shop more before their drive back and tell my employees what a great time they had here and never knew we had all this. Most of our out of state shoppers are from Wichita, Little Rock and Kansas City because the closest store north is in Chicago. When we grand opened last year the mall told us we had the longest grand opening line ever for the mall and our month events bring in more people than any other store at one time. Enough tooting my stores horn, but that's good for everyone's local business's, I am very happy to take out of state money to help our local economy.

[Jethrol]

*we need a delete post button*

[kevinpate]

BDP, I would say you are correct. My store is certainly not high end, because the prices on our bricks are cheaper than TRU and Target, but its a destination store. 1/4th, I said 1/4th of my customers that come in are from out of state or Tulsa(Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, West Texas). And when summer hits its much higher. In most cases, a lot of people from the states north of us come down for a weekend trip to see us, then I would purposely tell them about Bricktown and Frontier City, Zoo, etc...and on their way back home they would shop more before their drive back and tell my employees what a great time they had here and never knew we had all this. Most of our out of state shoppers are from Wichita, Little Rock and Kansas City because the closest store north is in Chicago. When we grand opened last year the mall told us we had the longest grand opening line ever for the mall and our month events bring in more people than any other store at one time. Enough tooting my stores horn, but that's good for everyone's local business's, I am very happy to take out of state money to help our local economy.

And the colors are pretty too. But I will ALWAYS hate stepping on one in the dark

[Jethrol]

BDP, I would say you are correct. My store is certainly not high end, because the prices on our bricks are cheaper than TRU and Target, but its a destination store. 1/4th, I said 1/4th of my customers that come in are from out of state or Tulsa(Missouri, Kansas, Arkansas, West Texas). And when summer hits its much higher. In most cases, a lot of people from the states north of us come down for a weekend trip to see us, then I would purposely tell them about Bricktown and Frontier City, Zoo, etc...and on their way back home they would shop more before their drive back and tell my employees what a great time they had here and never knew we had all this. Most of our out of state shoppers are from Wichita, Little Rock and Kansas City because the closest store north is in Chicago. When we grand opened last year the mall told us we had the longest grand opening line ever for the mall and our month events bring in more people than any other store at one time. Enough tooting my stores horn, but that's good for everyone's local business's, I am very happy to take out of state money to help our local economy.

I gotta say, I love your store. Even bought the Start Wars motorized AT-AT. I built it over a weekend and it was great fun. Some of my friends gave me grief for building a toy when I'm over 40 but I don't care....I had fun with it.

I've got to say with your store and the Apple store, Penn Sq has really matured and has a much different feel than it did even 5 years ago.