Tulsa and the cost of public safety. Is OKC next?

[Steve]

Tulsa World: Ex-member of council sounded alarm early

"History of growth: On the night in June that the council approved the budget, Martinson and the council's policy administrator, Jack Blair, gave a presentation that showed that Tulsa's combined police and fire general fund budgets have grown by more than three times the rate of inflation over 40 years.

Between 1968 and 2008, the budgets increased from $7.7 million to $149.9 million. At the rate of inflation, they would have totaled $44.6 million.

The departmental budgets have grown 14 times as fast than the number of fire and police personnel, their presentation showed. The police and fire departments now have 1,607 employees, fewer than a decade ago when they had 1,660.

"They always claim they need new officers, but anything they get goes into the pockets of the existing employees and not new help," Martinson said.

The fire and police departments take the entire 2 percent of Tulsa's sales tax dedicated for operations, forcing the city to rely on other revenue sources to fund all other needs.

That has gutted other city departments, Martinson said.

"Quite frankly, we're already seeing the impact of some of the other departments being cut below any semblance of reason," he said.

Although police and fire union officials maintain that it is important to preserve and raise salaries to remain competitive with peer cities, Martinson said a better measurement is what Tulsa's market will bear. He noted that the departments always get plenty of academy applications.

"Bottom line, the police and fire compensation structures are way out of line with the local economy," he said. "

[LakeEffect]

Quite fascinating. Thanks Steve (I don't normally peruse the World - maybe I should).

[Spartan]

Martinson is absolutely right. I have been following the situation in Tulsa and they're looking at cutting at least a hundred (1/6th) of their fire dept and quite a few police officers as well. Overall public safety is going to be cut 8.8% along with every other dept unless Tulsa sales tax collections miraculously spike upwards after the Holidays. Tulsa has been hit much harder than OKC which is remarkable considering that Tulsa has so much BETTER places to shop than OKC (They actually have Saks, Whole Foods, etc).

Public safety is the worst thing we can be spending our money on. Every increased dime that we give them just goes into the pockets of existing employees. They aren't adding to their numbers, despite that being their mantra for more funding, and what these officers do on the clock is a sham in the first place. For an average of $78,000 a year most of OKC's police officers are cruising highways and sitting still along thoroughfares looking for speeders. NOT fighting our city's gang problem. And we wonder why we have gang issues? The fact of the matter is that our gang problems fall on our already $$$-bloated police dept. When you are the highest-paid police dept in the region, in the lowest cost of living city in the region I might add, you can't pass the buck on gang problems. Being featured on Gangland is inexcusable.

Were OKC paid to appear on that show? Probably. So in between going to the donut shop and spending 50% of their time looking for speeders, the rest of their time filing paperwork and police reports on those speeding tickets, taking the occasional domestic dispute sham call where some mom is calling the police on her kid for not eating his veggies, it's amazing they even have the time to appear on TV in the first place!

These people who we like to think are doing the public a service by doing a job none of us could really do are in fact sucking the govt tit as hard as they can squeezing as much out it for themselves as possible. That's the way it is any time you have union employees on the govt payroll. "Public service" my arse. I would even tolerate union politics and union corruption and union worker pay rates if it actually led to a drop in crime and eradicating our city's gangs -- but there is absolutely no evidence available to support that police are effecting in wiping out gangs. This money would be better spent on education, which is the only ingredient our state is really missing. If we were better educated WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE GANG/CRIME PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW. We would be featured on the History Channel for GOOD things.

I say get rid of the unions, cut police pay by at least 40%, don't add any more police to the streets, stop getting them shiny new cars every 2 years, make them use their equipment to last, and abolish the permanent funding source that they have that no other public safety dept in this region has anything like. We need to see an end to the day where police unions have held us all hostage and won't let us go. As we increase police budgets, crime has soared. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. We want to lower crime..oh I know, let's triple the police budget again!

[soonerguru]

For a real laugh, read some of the comments at the bottom of the article. My favorites are the people calling for privatization of the police and fire departments. LOL. Tulsa is full of people who think that way, which is one reason their city is circling the drain right now. NOT ANOTHER TAX EVER thinking has drained them of revenue sources to do the basics, let alone anything that will get them ahead.

[Spartan]

Yeah it kind of sucks when you're to the point that you refuse to fund anything BESIDES police. What do you brag about as a city? An over-funded police force and a high crime rate (Tulsa)? That's getting bang for your tax buck..

[Thundercitizen]

Yeah it kind of sucks when you're to the point that you refuse to fund anything BESIDES police.

An imbalanced union influence.

[Pete]

This should get interesting.


Hopefully we can have an even-handed discussion.

[Spartan]

I would rather everyone just realize that the unions need to go and that public safety really isn't that great. I have been complaining on here for about a month now that public safety is arguably the #1 money drain in this state. Look at how the cop unions have manipulated OKC, Tulsa, Norman, Stillwater, and other cities around the state, and look at the gang problem in OKC and the burgeoning overall crime rate in Tulsa. We need to have a different priority than so-called "public safety" which has for TOO LONG been the #1 priority in this state. We need someone with the common sense to stand up to cop bullying and say NO MORE for lavish overpriced jail facilities, no more for union kickbacks, no more raises..cops don't need to be making twice the state average income. Last but not least, no more unions. We are a poor state and we can not afford to piss money down the drain in the way that we have with so-called "public safety." Look what becoming a police state has accomplished for Oklahoma -- we are one of the most backward, washed-up, uneducated, poorest states in the nation. No wonder we have to try so hard in OKC just to compete with places half our size like Omaha and Des Moines.

[jbrown84]

Harsh words from Spartan, but I have to agree for the most part.

[barnold]

I kinda wondered when this type of thread would start. And it appears the leading voice of ignorance will be Spartan to the lead.......kinda thought we were a "right to work state".

Ok High and mighties, tell me all about the evil unions and we'll banter about the evil "city leaders and their flunkies" we have to try and talk with every year. Can we at least try and keep it civil; or should we resort straight to the bullying?

[OUGrad05]

Martinson is absolutely right. I have been following the situation in Tulsa and they're looking at cutting at least a hundred (1/6th) of their fire dept and quite a few police officers as well. Overall public safety is going to be cut 8.8% along with every other dept unless Tulsa sales tax collections miraculously spike upwards after the Holidays. Tulsa has been hit much harder than OKC which is remarkable considering that Tulsa has so much BETTER places to shop than OKC (They actually have Saks, Whole Foods, etc).

Public safety is the worst thing we can be spending our money on. Every increased dime that we give them just goes into the pockets of existing employees. They aren't adding to their numbers, despite that being their mantra for more funding, and what these officers do on the clock is a sham in the first place. For an average of $78,000 a year most of OKC's police officers are cruising highways and sitting still along thoroughfares looking for speeders. NOT fighting our city's gang problem. And we wonder why we have gang issues? The fact of the matter is that our gang problems fall on our already $$$-bloated police dept. When you are the highest-paid police dept in the region, in the lowest cost of living city in the region I might add, you can't pass the buck on gang problems. Being featured on Gangland is inexcusable.

Were OKC paid to appear on that show? Probably. So in between going to the donut shop and spending 50% of their time looking for speeders, the rest of their time filing paperwork and police reports on those speeding tickets, taking the occasional domestic dispute sham call where some mom is calling the police on her kid for not eating his veggies, it's amazing they even have the time to appear on TV in the first place!

These people who we like to think are doing the public a service by doing a job none of us could really do are in fact sucking the govt tit as hard as they can squeezing as much out it for themselves as possible. That's the way it is any time you have union employees on the govt payroll. "Public service" my arse. I would even tolerate union politics and union corruption and union worker pay rates if it actually led to a drop in crime and eradicating our city's gangs -- but there is absolutely no evidence available to support that police are effecting in wiping out gangs. This money would be better spent on education, which is the only ingredient our state is really missing. If we were better educated WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE GANG/CRIME PROBLEMS WE HAVE NOW. We would be featured on the History Channel for GOOD things.

I say get rid of the unions, cut police pay by at least 40%, don't add any more police to the streets, stop getting them shiny new cars every 2 years, make them use their equipment to last, and abolish the permanent funding source that they have that no other public safety dept in this region has anything like. We need to see an end to the day where police unions have held us all hostage and won't let us go. As we increase police budgets, crime has soared. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over and expecting a different result. We want to lower crime..oh I know, let's triple the police budget again!

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.

The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

[OUGrad05]

For a real laugh, read some of the comments at the bottom of the article. My favorites are the people calling for privatization of the police and fire departments. LOL. Tulsa is full of people who think that way, which is one reason their city is circling the drain right now. NOT ANOTHER TAX EVER thinking has drained them of revenue sources to do the basics, let alone anything that will get them ahead.

Well said...

[barnold]

Spartan, I thought I remember you saying the gangs featured on the show weren't really a problem and with a little sensitivity training all would be well......
So in your expert opinion, do we have a gang problem or is it really just a good starting point for your next boisterous opinion on unions and how you believe anyone in public safety is overpaid? Either way, this should be interesting.

[OKCGUY3]

I think it is a shame that some people believe everything they see on T.V. I watched the Gangland show too...I believe that the same T.V. producer could make Union City look just as scary and bad. Come on, this show is edited, emphasized, supersized, and overly dramatized FOR RATINGS! Sure, there are a few groups of thugs in OKC. But hardly is there blood running in the streets every day from the horrific gangland killings that are depicted on the show. Maybe someone can post our yearly murder rate. I bet it isn't quite as dramatic as the show makes it sound. (don't get me wrong, one killing is too many). Our crime rate is low comparitivly speaking because of the men and women that we have in our law enforcement groups. As for ticket writing, this brings in revenue and helps to save lives every day by getting people to slow down, wear seat belts, stop driving drunk, etc......Do away with competent officers and then you really would see our city on t.v. shows with more accurate depictions that are close to what Gangland tried to insenuate that we already have. As for being highest paid in the region, please Sparton, give me what you are considering a region. OCPD officers are not the highest paid in our region. Nor are the Firefighters in OKC since you are blasting the unions.
Do yourelf a favor, turn off the t.v. once in a while, don't believe every word of the newspaper, and get out into the real world by talking to a VARIETY of people with information on what ever subject you are interested in . Take some information from each person and figure out what the real story is and what is over dramatized, falsefied, exagerated, and just plain made up for the hell of it. Remember the old saying for computers..GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT.

[Bunty]

I would rather everyone just realize that the unions need to go and that public safety really isn't that great. I have been complaining on here for about a month now that public safety is arguably the #1 money drain in this state. Look at how the cop unions have manipulated OKC, Tulsa, Norman, Stillwater, and other cities around the state, and look at the gang problem in OKC and the burgeoning overall crime rate in Tulsa. We need to have a different priority than so-called "public safety" which has for TOO LONG been the #1 priority in this state. We need someone with the common sense to stand up to cop bullying and say NO MORE for lavish overpriced jail facilities, no more for union kickbacks, no more raises..cops don't need to be making twice the state average income. Last but not least, no more unions. We are a poor state and we can not afford to piss money down the drain in the way that we have with so-called "public safety." Look what becoming a police state has accomplished for Oklahoma -- we are one of the most backward, washed-up, uneducated, poorest states in the nation. No wonder we have to try so hard in OKC just to compete with places half our size like Omaha and Des Moines.

Well, can you cite a metro area where the police are not unonized and their pay and crime rates are significantly lower? If being a police officer is one of the last jobs you would ever want, then I think you need to better appreciate the police. Besides, a lot of people in Oklahoma strongly feel that meth users and pot smokers need to be caught and put in jail. Putting away drug users is a big priority for public safety in Oklahoma.

Oklahoma is one of the most highly imprisoned places on earth. If the citizens think that's a great idea to keep running with, then don't be surprised with more new shiny jails going up and for increasing demand for new, well paid cops to help fill them.

By the way, get up to date. Oklahoma isn't as poor as it used to be. It may be around no. 28 now in per capita income.

[Bunty]

Do yourelf a favor, turn off the t.v. once in a while, don't believe every word of the newspaper, and get out into the real world by talking to a VARIETY of people with information on what ever subject you are interested in . Take some information from each person and figure out what the real story is and what is over dramatized, falsefied, exagerated, and just plain made up for the hell of it. Remember the old saying for computers..GARBAGE IN=GARBAGE OUT.

But he does. He been to a lot of cities. That's why I asked him if he knew of any metro areas where the police are not unionized.

[Chance23]

Who ever said they believed everything they saw on TV?

[andy157]

The good news for us is that the Fire Department's budget actually had a decrease this year.

[rcjunkie]

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.
The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

It's funny you state" they spend their time running from call to call, anduse any spare time doing paper work" excuse my ignorance, but isn't that their job.

[rcjunkie]

This just reeks of ignorance, most of the OCPD does NOT sit around giving traffic tickets and the department is understaffed. Much of their time is spent running from call to call strapped for time and then any spare time is spent doing REQUIRED paperwork that all the officers I am friends with, HATE doing.
The department doesn't get all new cars every two years...cutting the pay of those who risk their lives for the safety of the citizens isn't something people should be advocating, but hey its alright until YOU need OCPD, then when it takes an hour to respond because they're drastically understaffed maybe you'll pull your head out of your hind end and realize that politics and legal issues make policing much more difficult and time consuming today then it was 40 years ago.

A close family member of mine was shot at fourth day on the job, been hit in the face, spit on, bled on time and again...something that happens to NONE of us in our jobs each day so I'd say they are compensated just fine, if not underpaid.

As for the police union, i dont like them much either...but with people such as yourself out there, is it any wonder why the union is so powerful? if it were up to you they'd all make 10 bucks an hour and the city would have all of 500 officers for a population of 540,000 and 600+ square miles that need policing...


edit: I'd also like to see specifics on that pay rate average of 78k/yr
I know a close family member on the force, been on for a couple years and is making about 50k, working the streets...50k isn't enough for what he goes through day in and day out.

78k seems a bit high since the LT's I know have base salaries of somewhere in the mid/upper 70s. I wonder if that includes extra job pay...if it does it is important to note that extra jobs DO NOT cost the city money, the entity requesting the officers pay for them...

It's funny you state" they spend their time running from call to call, and use any spare time doing REQUIRED paper work" (WHICH THEY HATE) excuse my ignorance, but isn't that their job.

[barnold]

RC,
I believe that he was referring to the fact that they spend less time patrolling nowadays and more time mired in endless paperwork. Even within the FD we spend hours on the computer entering data and information every shift which didn't used to be the norm. It's all become part of the job but has taken away from other things that could have been done.

[Steve]

Gotta love a good debate....
Here's the latest story from the Tulsa World, and also a helpful chart showing comparison cities for pay:


So here's my new question: are these cities good comps for OKC and Tulsa when you weigh in cost of living and per capita income?

[mheaton76]

What immediately jumps out on the left chart is that the payscale in Dallas is remarkably similar to that of Tulsa...I know first hand the cost of living in dallas is way, way higher, obviously. Amazing.

[circuitboard]

Gotta love a good debate....
Here's the latest story from the Tulsa World, and also a helpful chart showing comparison cities for pay:


So here's my new question: are these cities good comps for OKC and Tulsa when you weigh in cost of living and per capita income?

Wow, best place to be a police officer is Austin, 82k a year max! lol

[Kerry]

So how bad is crime in Omaha? I don't remember seeing them on COPS.