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Thread: Maps 3

  1. #201

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Popsy View Post
    Pardon, but my brain cannot grasp "rightfully so". When proponents claim economic impact due to construction of the line that is saying that it would not have happened without the line, which in the example given would be very disingenious. Please explain.
    How about this then. Put together a quick list of all the future development that will take place around OKC and after the streetcar is built, anything that gets constructed along the route that was on your list we won't credit to the streetcar. That should be fair.

  2. #202

    Default Re: Maps 3

    The route hasn't even gone through environmental analysis and if problems are found there may be changes, so anyone who doesn't already own property would be foolish to purchase now. It's going to be 3 to 5 years before the streetcar line is completed, so certainly anyone wanting to rent to capitalize on the route would be foolish to do so now as well. It's simply too early. Economic development will occur over time regardless, it won't simply mushroom in a month or two.

  3. #203

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    How about this then. Put together a quick list of all the future development that will take place around OKC and after the streetcar is built, anything that gets constructed along the route that was on your list we won't credit to the streetcar. That should be fair.
    I think I will just wait and if something is built along the line I will go ask them if they located there because of the streetcar and get back to the forum with what I found out.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Maps 3

    There's a lot of open land along Robinson and on cross streets between Broadway and Robinson that has not been developed, as well as a lot of open land near 11th St. Perhaps we can watch these areas once the final route is officially announced and see what happens. One could also argue that anything sold prior to the official route announcement is buying for speculation as well, but for that you will have to ask.

    I wouldn't claim the Devon Tower regardless, nor would I claim anything that had been in the planning stages for years. I will tell you that retailers who are going to be on or near the proposed route are thrilled at the prospect. Midtown will suddenly be accessible to visitors staying in Bricktown or downtown hotels, and people living in Mesta Park and Heritage Hills will have easy access to Bricktown and downtown. Those are probably distances requiring driving for all but the most intrepid casual walkers.

  5. #205

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by mcca7596 View Post
    In an article I read about the potential Tuscon streetcar, opponents said that most of the surrounding development occurs because of tax incentives. Any thoughts about that?
    Well actually, that's not true. I don't know where you saw that, but in many cases, it's actually the opposite. To fund streetcar expansions, often what happens in Portland and Seattle is they levy a tax district that raises property taxes on the TOD impact area, issues bonds, and then repays the bonds over time with the new property taxes on the infill area.

    I want to make a few essential comments about the concept of economic development regarding the streetcar. First, there is a difference between the streetcar attracting investment to the greater metropolitan area and attracting demand to the greater metropolitan area. Of course the streetcar improves quality of life in Oklahoma City and makes our downtown much more attractive, and that will interest many prospective new residents, but the potential for it to actually grow regional housing demand isn't really relevant. But it does attract investment that otherwise would not come to OKC. That is because people are right, that it does shift demand from one area (suburbs) to another area (downtown). It does this in a natural way that doesn't involve leveraging taxes to make life unpleasant for suburbanites.

    There are investment opportunities that exist with urban development that don't hardly exist with suburban developments. If they decide to let MAPS3 pay for a FULL downtown streetcar system, as voters expected, then there will be a lot of investment from OUTSIDE of OKC that would go into OKC real estate. Obviously this is not the case with suburban development. Furthermore, just compare the cost differential between suburban housing and urban housing. Which do you think is better for the economy?

    Then regarding convention center economic development potential, I think that is an argument of the 1990s. It was very true then. Now? It seems to be proving a lot less true. I think streetcar economic development is the trend of the future. How ironic that OKC always seems 10-20 years behind, and then we wonder why? This is why. We are so convinced by looking at old data and old arguments, and we refuse to believe new data and new arguments until 10-20 years too late. That is what we are seeing with the convention center v. streetcar.

    But even if you want to go above trends, which I believe is needed (there is no point in just "keeping up with trends" regardless of what economic development argument someone gives you), then it should come down to livability and quality of life. Which the convention center does nothing for, as a black hole in our downtown that doesn't interact with people at all.

  6. #206

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Popsy View Post
    I think I will just wait and if something is built along the line I will go ask them if they located there because of the streetcar and get back to the forum with what I found out.
    I would just recommend everyone puts a particular poster on ignore...

  7. #207
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    Default Re: Maps 3

    Spartan, you make a great case. I am not sure about CC's being dead, but I do know the current trends are away from big conventions. I suspect that the more expensive travel is and the more opportunities in mass electronic communication grow we will see some diminishing of conventions. However, I think there will always be needs for group meetings and a competitive facility is needed. As to it being a "black hole", it doesn't have to be. That said, I have spent a lot of time in Europe and am a HUGE proponent of urban mass transit systems. I go to Paris quite a bit and never rent a car except to go travel the country. Even in Lyon where I have worked quite a bit, and is a city very comparably sized, etc. to OKC, they have a good transit system. So, I totally agree with the need on many levels.

    Choosing between these two is like choosing between your daughter and son. You love them both.

  8. #208

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    I would just recommend everyone puts a particular poster on ignore...
    Why is that Sparky? Does your lack of maturity not allow you to read a different view than your own? No need to answer either of those questions because I already know.

  9. #209

    Default Re: Maps 3

    I'm laughing here because I just told one of my co-workers about the plan to move the Convention Center forward. She's the kind of person who votes for MAPS but then doesn't pay a lot of attention. Her comment was: "Why? There's not enough to do downtown right now to attract bigger conventions. People will be saying, 'I don't want to go to a convention there because there's nothing to do' or after attending 'That convention was lame'."

    That was precisely my argument to the committee yesterday. We need time to develop our downtown and downtown transit more. We can build a bigger, fancier space but unless there's more to do than attend the convention, the only ones we'll attract are conventions where no one brings their family and no one wants to do anything but meet. We run the risk of bad reviews that could hurt us attract better conventions even when our downtown is more developed.

  10. #210
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    Default Re: Maps 3

    Compared to Orland or Chicago, you are right. Compared to Columbus or Omaha, not so much. Coming in from Wichita or Gotebo we have tons of entertainment.

  11. #211

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    I'm laughing here because I just told one of my co-workers about the plan to move the Convention Center forward. She's the kind of person who votes for MAPS but then doesn't pay a lot of attention. Her comment was: "Why? There's not enough to do downtown right now to attract bigger conventions. People will be saying, 'I don't want to go to a convention there because there's nothing to do' or after attending 'That convention was lame'."

    That was precisely my argument to the committee yesterday. We need time to develop our downtown and downtown transit more. We can build a bigger, fancier space but unless there's more to do than attend the convention, the only ones we'll attract are conventions where no one brings their family and no one wants to do anything but meet. We run the risk of bad reviews that could hurt us attract better conventions even when our downtown is more developed.
    Not to mention that nobody wants to go to a convention in a city designed around a convention center..

  12. #212

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Actually, Omaha may be a better place, or at least no worse, to go to a convention than OKC. I was pretty shocked when I was there this year. And my sister goes to a fair number of conventions. She lives in a town of 5,000 and she wants to go to San Diego and Boston just like I do. Now, if the Adventure line were functioning or we had some downtown retail of significance that might be different. I'm certainly going to no conventions where I have to rent a car to get around a convention city. If there's no mass trans I'm not going.

  13. #213

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Actually, Omaha may be a better place, or at least no worse, to go to a convention than OKC. I was pretty shocked when I was there this year. And my sister goes to a fair number of conventions. She lives in a town of 5,000 and she wants to go to San Diego and Boston just like I do. Now, if the Adventure line were functioning or we had some downtown retail of significance that might be different. I'm certainly going to no conventions where I have to rent a car to get around a convention city. If there's no mass trans I'm not going.
    So how did you get around in Omaha? Just wondering. (smiley emoticon)

  14. #214

    Default Re: Maps 3

    I walked. Got a ride downtown and then never left. I'm not really saying Omaha should be a convention destination, but I'm not really sure it has less to offer than OKC. And they've got some retail downtown.

  15. #215

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Have to be careful with assigning cause and effect. I could present data that shows that the Bricktown Canal was responsible for the $3 Billion in development around it since it went in. That would be absurd. We don't know from the numbers you show what the NET affect in the CITY was. We only know from that info that there was great investment apparently in the area around the tracks. While many people have a fever when they die, they don't die from the fever.
    I agree. I'm sure there are economic values included in those figures that would have occured with or without the streetcar. The studies were, however, prepared by qualified consultants who understand transit oriented development and have experience separating out economic impacts that are primarily driven by streetcar system development versus those that would have occurred otherwise.

    Anyone familiar with TOD and the various streetcar and other rail transit systems throughout the country knows that there is substantial economic development directly related to development of those systems. You can discount the figures provided with any hocus-pocus factor you choose...20%...30%...even 50%...and they are still very significant.

    The point of posting those wasn't to argue their specificity. It was meant only to generally demonstrate the significant economic development potential of the MAPS 3 streetcar system. Will it create $3.5 billion in economic development. I doubt it. Will it generate hundreds of millions? Probably.

  16. #216

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Popsy View Post
    I have always questioned the numbers relating to economic impact touted by streetcar proponets, but now I think I am getting a clearer picture. If anything is built near a streetcar line, then the proponets will claim it as being because of the streetcars. It is too bad that the streetcar was not in place two years ago. Had it been, proponets could claim the devon tower, project 180, the new I-40 replacement, the new convention center and central park and anything else that happens, even if it had nothing to do with the street car. Those projects add to what? Two billion? Just think how other streetcar proponents in other cities could point to OKC as a shining example of the impact streetcars have had in the southern plains. I guess since streetcars have been proposed for a while it might be possible to claim those numbers anyway.
    .
    Which is exactly what the Chamber did with their economic impact of MAPS "study". They included anything and everything that fell within a certain boundary that happened after the MAPS vote passed. Including the I-40 relocation and the Memorial.

  17. #217

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry OKC View Post
    Which is exactly what the Chamber did with their economic impact of MAPS "study". They included anything and everything that fell within a certain boundary that happened after the MAPS vote passed. Including the I-40 relocation and the Memorial.
    That's exactly what I was going to say. So it's ok to attribute this to the "OKC renaissance" (aka a convention center and a sports team) but to attribute these sorts of spin-off investments to a so-called "liberal" idea like public transit, that's obscene! lol

  18. #218

    Default Re: Maps 3

    It's already been decided.....the street car is going to be located along Memorial Rd, between MacArthur and Western.

  19. #219

    Default Re: Maps 3

    This week the MAPS 3 committee is considering changing the timing and some other elements of the various projects.

    Interestingly in Option 1, they are proposing doing exactly what has been discussed here regarding Central Park:

    Revised Project Order Option 1
    • Convention Center moves up 30 months
    • Phase 4 of the River, the Lower Park design and construction,
    and Phase 2 of Transit are moved back two years
    • Last three Wellness Centers and the later phases of Trails are
    extended
    • Upper Park is divided into two phases:
    *****First phase early in the program – basic amenities
    *****Completion phase later in the program
    • Fairgrounds project moves up one year
    • River - Whitewater project moves up 6 months
    • Transit has an added Investigation and Standards phase

    Revised Project Order Option 2
    • Convention Center moves up 21 months
    • Phase 4 of the River, the Lower Park design and construction,
    and Phase 2 of Transit are moved back two years
    • Last three Wellness Centers and the later phases of Trails are
    extended
    • Upper Park is completed by the end of 2014
    • Fairgrounds project moves up one year
    • River - Whitewater project moves up 6 months
    • Transit has an added Investigation and Standards phase

  20. #220

    Default Re: Maps 3

    Interesting that heavy hitters got their way, such as Clay Bennett getting his unpopular Fairgrounds project moved up a year. Also, the whitewater rapids deal (probably Aubrey's) is getting moved up.

    This will probably be the last MAPS campaign ever for this city. The backroom politics has been downright nasty, some of which I'm not at liberty to discuss. But make no mistake, there are some really important people in this town who have actively tried to destroy the streetcar. They will have to continue to be watched once the thing is actually built.

  21. #221

    Default Re: Maps 3

    It's easy to say that now, but if the projects are completed successfully and prove to be popular then all this will be forgotten.

  22. #222

    Default Re: Maps 3

    These projects are generally more amorphous and longer-term (not to mention larger scope and budget) than the previous iterations of MAPS, which leaves room for lots of varying opinions and priorities.

    Way, way more planning and collaboration is going into all this than with the other MAPS projects and that's not only required, it's probably a good thing. But it also means tough decisions are having to be made and not everyone that participates in the process is going to get their way.

  23. Default Re: Maps 3

    At yesterday's council meeting, as part of but expanding beyond discussion of the Skydance Bridge status, the following discussion occurred, largely observations by Pete White concerning MAPS 3 specificity (or lack thereof). Good stuff.


  24. Default Re: Maps 3

    I haven't met Pete White, but I already like how he seems to be as confused with things as me or any average Joe and has to ask these basic questions. I can't imagine how hard it is to plan all the huge amount of things going on in the city at once right now. I can't follow all these council meetings religiously, but it seems to me that people aren't all on the same page, or somebody fell asleep during a presentation one day. The "bridge to nowhere" and the power substation relocation thing are examples. When people say things like "we never agreed on that" or people have assumptions on what's going to happen and then they don't it makes people wonder about the whole thing.

    Oh, then there's the original timeline of events that were in place when MAPS 3 was voted on, with the mass transit thing being the linchpin, that gets swept under a rug and pushed back and suddenly it's the convention center we need now instead. Now the idea of a central park is even questioned, with the bridge to it suddenly in this limbo. Seems like there was some other agenda behind the scenes with all the projects getting shuffled around.

  25. #225
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    Default Re: Maps 3

    Quote Originally Posted by UnFrSaKn View Post
    I haven't met Pete White, but I already like how he seems to be as confused with things as me or any average Joe and has to ask these basic questions. I can't imagine how hard it is to plan all the huge amount of things going on in the city at once right now. I can't follow all these council meetings religiously, but it seems to me that people aren't all on the same page, or somebody fell asleep during a presentation one day. The "bridge to nowhere" and the power substation relocation thing are examples. When people say things like "we never agreed on that" or people have assumptions on what's going to happen and then they don't it makes people wonder about the whole thing.

    Oh, then there's the original timeline of events that were in place when MAPS 3 was voted on, with the mass transit thing being the linchpin, that gets swept under a rug and pushed back and suddenly it's the convention center we need now instead. Now the idea of a central park is even questioned, with the bridge to it suddenly in this limbo. Seems like there was some other agenda behind the scenes with all the projects getting shuffled around.
    I don't recall the timeline being part of the promotion of Maps3. Perhaps someone can post something showing how the various project timelines were used to sell the ideas to the public. Was the mass trans promoted as the first to happen? Maybe I just missed that part.

    Oh, and there are always agendas. Many of them good, some bad. The biggest and best agenda is serving our citizens. How that is done best is a matter of opinion.

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