Maps 3

[HOT ROD]

Proposed schedule "Option #1" approved and moves forward to council. Streetcar schedule safe and reasonably timed.

Whew...

Many thanks to those who came out and to our Chair and Co Chair of the MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee.

Very good news UP!

You all have mass support from China!!!

[Spartan]

Good news!

[Larry OKC]

Would be interested in hearing Urban & Betts take on it.

I watched it and towards the end, the head of the Oversight Committee made statements that I found troubling. He noted that among the "experts", that the ranking put the Whitewater Rafting, State Fair & Convention Center as the top 3 "by any measurement you want to give that are going to have the most economic impact". No mention by him at all of Transit when it came to economic impact. He went on to say that Transit needs more study.

[rcjunkie]

Would be interested in hearing Urban & Betts take on it.

I watched it and towards the end, the head of the Oversight Committee made statements that I found troubling. He noted that among the "experts", that the ranking put the Whitewater Rafting, State Fair & Convention Center as the top 3 "by any measurement you want to give that are going to have the most economic impact". No mention by him at all of Transit when it came to economic impact. He went on to say that Transit needs more study.

He's correct, the proposed "Transit" does nothing that will impact the economy.

[Rover]

I would expect that the transit system will definitely spur development along its route, but probably is a shifting of development areas, not necessarily a net gain for the city for awhile. On the other hand, the ones mentioned, the cc, white water rafting and fairgrounds all tend to bring in money from the outside and more immediately. I am sure that is the thinking.

[HOT ROD]

I would expect that the transit system will definitely spur development along its route, but probably is a shifting of development areas, not necessarily a net gain for the city for awhile. On the other hand, the ones mentioned, the cc, white water rafting and fairgrounds all tend to bring in money from the outside and more immediately. I am sure that is the thinking.

Rover, I politely and respectfully disagree with a portion of your statement. You mentioned that the transit system probably will shift development areas and therefore will not necessarily be a net gain for the city as a whole. I disagree with this.

If there streetcar results in ANY new/additional residential/commercial/retail space that is built along its route or in downtown (within the stated access of its route), then it is a net gain for the city because nothing is there now. For it to not be a net gain, then something would need to be torn down outside of downtown and something built along the route of the streetcar. Also, the development along the streetcar will most likely be URBAN in nature and nothing like it exists outside of the current downtown districts - again, nothing suburban is compromised for streetcar development.

I think this is what many are failing to realize/see, that the streetcar will/should have an impact on the city far greater and more tangible than any other project. It also has an immediate and tangible benefit to the citizens of the central city. The cc will have an impact, but OKC must still compete with other cities and unless we build a Tier I convention center, I don't see there being a huge increase in business given the competition. I am not anti-cc, I am anti-cc instead of more popular/promising projects like streetcar and the park.

Back to the streetcar/'transit': I thought MAPS III was the START of a regional transportation system, beginning with a streetcar network for the immediate downtown area - so for those who keep complaining of the small segment being served by Maps III; realize this is a start and it is appropriate to build at the most dense section of your city then move out. If any of the suburbs already had plans for CR, then that too could be realizes, but I think it might be unrealistic at this point given the relative lack of critical mass commuting to downtown for work. 3-5 years from now, that probably will change and we should be implementing CR or at least Commuter Bus.

Again, this transit is a process and there is no reason for any other part of OKC to get rail right now other than downtown and parts of the inner city, due to the critical mass that does (or very soon will) exist and will use the system daily. The streetcar will be much more than a tourist circulator, it is the start of OKC's transit network.

Look for Maps 4 to expand on transit - with transit center, expanded city/regional bus, and commuter rail as highlights; and MAPS probably becoming a true "metropolitan area" initiative.

[Larry OKC]

He's correct, the proposed "Transit" does nothing that will impact the economy.

How so? We have been told repeatedly by those that should know these things have a 10 to 1 return (or even higher). Sounds like economic impact to me, but maybe we have different definitions?

[Urban Pioneer]

Would be interested in hearing Urban & Betts take on it.

I watched it and towards the end, the head of the Oversight Committee made statements that I found troubling. He noted that among the "experts", that the ranking put the Whitewater Rafting, State Fair & Convention Center as the top 3 "by any measurement you want to give that are going to have the most economic impact". No mention by him at all of Transit when it came to economic impact. He went on to say that Transit needs more study.

That's because he was right. He was reffering to "direct economic impact" based on job creation and sales tax generation that could be projected by the consultants and described at the joint meeting earlier this month.

But the consultant went out of her way and ADG reaffirmed that they did not even attemp to rank transit against the other projects because they didn't have enough time, final route, and hub location information. So even in the meeting today, it was reaffirmed by Chairman McDaniels that it needed more study. Subcommittee Chair Nathaniel Harding stressed the indirect return observed in other cities.

We had more prepped on this subject to speak on but it was obvious they wanted to get the vote over with while they had a quorum.

[Hutch]

That's because he was right. He was reffering to "direct economic impact" based on job creation and sales tax generation that could be projected by the consultants and described at the joint meeting earlier this month.

But the consultant went out of her way and ADG reaffirmed that they did not even attemp to rank transit against the other projects because they didn't have enough time, final route, and hub location information. So even in the meeting today, it was reaffirmed by Chairman McDaniels that it needed more study. Subcommittee Chair Nathaniel Harding stressed the indirect return observed in other cities.

We had more prepped on this subject to speak on but it was obvious they wanted to get the vote over with while they had a quorum.

There is no question that the OKC modern streetcar system will generate very significant economic development activity, potentially greater than all other MAPS 3 projects when all economic impact data is considered. Economic impact studies from existing and proposed streetcar systems confirm that fact. The results of those studies report real and projected economic impacts from streetcar systems beyond the economic development that would occur without those systems.

Here are the numbers:

Real Economic Impact Data from Studies of Streetcar Systems in Operation

Portland:
Modern Streetcar
4.0-mile alignment - $103 million capital cost
$3.5 billion in economic development within 2 blocks of alignment
10,200 new residential units within 2 blocks of alignment
5.4 million square feet of new commercial and retail development within 2 blocks of alignment

Seattle:
Modern Streetcar
1.3-mile alignment - $52 million capital cost
$2.5 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment
6,100 new residential units within 3 blocks of alignment
3.3 million square feet of new commercial and retail development within 3 blocks of alignment

Tampa:
Heritage Streetcar
2.4-mile alignment - $53 million capital cost
$1 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment
2,740 new residential units within 3 blocks of alignment

Little Rock:
Heritage Streetcar
3.5-mile alignment - $27 million capital cost
$400 million in new economic development within 2 blocks of alignment
600 new residential units within 2 blocks of alignment

Projected Economic Impact Data from Studies of Proposed Streetcar Systems

Milwaukee
Modern Streetcar
3.55-mile alignment - $95.8 million capital cost
$3.35 billion in new economic develoment
9,000 new residential units
13,500 new residents
5 million square feet of new commercial and retail development
20,500 new jobs

Los Angeles
Modern Streetcar
4.75-mile alignment - $110 million capital cost
$1.1 billion in new develoment
$24.5 million in new retail, hotel, restaurant, entertainment annually
$47 million in cumulative new city tax revenues
2,600 new residential units
3,600 new residents
675,000 square feet of new and renovated office space
7,200 new construction jobs providing $500 million in total compensation
2,100 new permanent office, retail, entertainment, hotel jobs providing $120 million annual compenstation
5,800 new hotel room nights annually

Cincinnati
Modern Streetcar
4.9-mile alignment - $102 million capital cost
$1.4 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment

[Rover]

There is no question that the OKC modern streetcar system will generate very significant economic development activity, potentially greater than all other MAPS 3 projects when all economic impact data is considered. Economic impact studies from existing and proposed streetcar systems confirm that fact. The results of those studies report real and projected economic impacts from streetcar systems beyond the economic development that would occur without those systems.

Here are the numbers:

Real Economic Impact Data from Studies of Streetcar Systems in Operation

Portland:
Modern Streetcar
4.0-mile alignment - $103 million capital cost
$3.5 billion in economic development within 2 blocks of alignment
10,200 new residential units within 2 blocks of alignment
5.4 million square feet of new commercial and retail development within 2 blocks of alignment

Seattle:
Modern Streetcar
1.3-mile alignment - $52 million capital cost
$2.5 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment
6,100 new residential units within 3 blocks of alignment
3.3 million square feet of new commercial and retail development within 3 blocks of alignment

Tampa:
Heritage Streetcar
2.4-mile alignment - $53 million capital cost
$1 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment
2,740 new residential units within 3 blocks of alignment

Little Rock:
Heritage Streetcar
3.5-mile alignment - $27 million capital cost
$400 million in new economic development within 2 blocks of alignment
600 new residential units within 2 blocks of alignment

Projected Economic Impact Data from Studies of Proposed Streetcar Systems

Milwaukee
Modern Streetcar
3.55-mile alignment - $95.8 million capital cost
$3.35 billion in new economic develoment
9,000 new residential units
13,500 new residents
5 million square feet of new commercial and retail development
20,500 new jobs

Los Angeles
Modern Streetcar
4.75-mile alignment - $110 million capital cost
$1.1 billion in new develoment
$24.5 million in new retail, hotel, restaurant, entertainment annually
$47 million in cumulative new city tax revenues
2,600 new residential units
3,600 new residents
675,000 square feet of new and renovated office space
7,200 new construction jobs providing $500 million in total compensation
2,100 new permanent office, retail, entertainment, hotel jobs providing $120 million annual compenstation
5,800 new hotel room nights annually

Cincinnati
Modern Streetcar
4.9-mile alignment - $102 million capital cost
$1.4 billion in new economic development within 3 blocks of alignment

Have to be careful with assigning cause and effect. I could present data that shows that the Bricktown Canal was responsible for the $3 Billion in development around it since it went in. That would be absurd. We don't know from the numbers you show what the NET affect in the CITY was. We only know from that info that there was great investment apparently in the area around the tracks. While many people have a fever when they die, they don't die from the fever.

[Hutch]

Have to be careful with assigning cause and effect. I could present data that shows that the Bricktown Canal was responsible for the $3 Billion in development around it since it went in. That would be absurd. We don't know from the numbers you show what the NET affect in the CITY was. We only know from that info that there was great investment apparently in the area around the tracks. While many people have a fever when they die, they don't die from the fever.

I agree. I'm sure there are economic values included in those figures that would have occured with or without the streetcar. The studies were, however, prepared by qualified consultants who understand transit oriented development and have experience separating out economic impacts that are primarily driven by streetcar system development versus those that would have occurred otherwise.

Anyone familiar with TOD and the various streetcar and other rail transit systems throughout the country knows that there is substantial economic development directly related to development of those systems. You can discount the figures provided with any hocus-pocus factor you choose...20%...30%...even 50%...and they are still very significant.

The point of posting those wasn't to argue their specificity. It was meant only to generally demonstrate the significant economic development potential of the MAPS 3 streetcar system. Will it create $3.5 billion in economic development. I doubt it. Will it generate hundreds of millions? Probably.

[Larry OKC]

Rover: I tend to agree with you about the development aspect (if it is new development or development that would happen elsewhere anyway, no matter where it is built). SImilar to the economic impact associated with the original MAPS projects, how much of that development would have happened anyway (just maybe not in that specific area)?

That said, some (like Kerry) think the C.C. is mostly local anyway and doesn't bring in all that much new, outside visitor type dollars. The same for the Whitewater Facility, sure it is going to bring in some but that seems to be such a niche target market that the economic impact seems likely to be small. But I may be wrong on that. Would be interesting what economic impact it has had in other places that have built similar venues. I also understand the Olympic Training aspect of it.

[SkyWestOKC]

I concur that the streetcar does have an economic impact, but also agree that that impact is shifting money around. For example, a development built elsewhere in the city, might locate closer to the streetcar system. The same money (or very close to) will be spent with or without it, the difference being it will be spent at Point B rather than Point A. On paper, for the entire city, the economic impact is probably close to neutral, probably slightly higher than neutral. On a downtown basis, the impact will be tremendous.

Convention Center will bring money into the economy that otherwise would not have been spent in the economy. So, it is true that it would have both a greater impact on the city, and since it is also downtown, will also have an impact positively on the downtown "economy."

Fairgrounds...hit or miss. I guess if they are increasing exhibition space, etc. it would also have a positive impact on the city economy by possibly attracting larger shows/events.

Whitewater Facility, also, really how many people per year will this attract to OKC that normally would have not visited. I would like to see some data for this as well, as I genuinely am curious.

So, with all that said, it is true that the convention center will have a greater city-wide impact on the economy than the streetcar. While I am 100% in favor of the streetcar, it will not bring in money from outside our economy in the amount as the convention center.

I think the streetcar will have the greatest impact on downtown as a unit, though.

All of these projects are good. They all work with each other. As someone pointed out, without the convention center, the streetcar will not have as many users, without the streetcar, the convention center won't be as attractive, without the park, downtown housing won't be as desirable as suburban living. The whitewater facility will continue to bring guests down to the river, and hopefully act as a catalyst for more development on that front.

I am in favor of all of the MAPS3 projects, so I am very hesitant to say "kill this project" and make MAPS3 a fight for money. The projects will all eventually get built. In the grand scheme of things, the timing isn't THAT important. Downtown is growing at a very steady pace, and having certain projects take a little longer won't kill the private investment that is being poured into downtown.

As soon as most of the preliminary plans are drawn up and locations for everything begins to be firm. Private development will build around it before everything is 100% complete.

For example, knowing the streetcar route, might be enough to spur some development now along the streetcar route, before a single track is down.

[Snowman]

Back to the streetcar/'transit': I thought MAPS III was the START of a regional transportation system, beginning with a streetcar network for the immediate downtown area - so for those who keep complaining of the small segment being served by Maps III; realize this is a start and it is appropriate to build at the most dense section of your city then move out. If any of the suburbs already had plans for CR, then that too could be realizes, but I think it might be unrealistic at this point given the relative lack of critical mass commuting to downtown for work. 3-5 years from now, that probably will change and we should be implementing CR or at least Commuter Bus.

While I have hope for the downtown streetcar, I have little expectation for a regional system. With major construction from the primary routes from Yukon/Mustang/El Reno, Norman, soon Edmond, a gas price spike and little alternatives choice of vehicle power available; now is as good as you are going to get with people being open to mass transit anytime soon with suburbs if it where available. In 4/5 years only Edmond should have the main freeway blocked but they have two paths around, plus outside of significant reduction in fuel costs their should be more CNG and electric options as well.

[Kerry]

When people say that the streetcar only redirects existing future development I have to scratch my head because I don't even know what that means. However, lets look at the current Mercy Hospital site. 6 groups are trying to building on this site. Why are these 6 groups fighting over this site and where would they have been built if this site wasn't available? 5 of these groups are going to lose, are they going to build somewhere else or just put their plans in a file cabinet? The Streetcar is going to change the economics that makes projects viable that otherwise would not be viable, and would never be built anywhere in OKC.

[Rover]

First, I said it wouldn't be a net gain "for awhile". I am a huge proponent of the streetcar and regional mass transit systems and the sooner we start on it the better. My only point was that there is X amount of demand for housing and retail in OKC. The streetcar system will increase demand of people living and working nearby, shifting those dollars from somewhere else in the city. A developer will look at all location options and pick the site that is most economically advantaged. But, people won't necessarily move to the Oklahoma City AREA because we have a few miles of streetcars. Let's be real. As the whole downtown evolves though, that might be enough to persuade a few businesses and residents who might be choosing between taking jobs or locating in OKC vs Austin or Milwaukee or Kansas City to settle here. Is it a huge boost to downtown...yes...both short and long term. Is it a boost to OKC....yes, but longer term.

The "experts" looking at all this have all the data from throughout the US and will or will have put it in perspective against the backdrop of our peer cities. It will be looked at objectively and thats how it should be done. We tend to look at it emotionally and using limited data we quickly find on a few sites we Google. We hope they are factual and we can sit back and be opinionated. Best we can do with our emotions, opinions and voices is to make sure they have pressure to look at ALL the angles and data before committing us in directions which will affect our citizens for decades.

[mcca7596]

In an article I read about the potential Tuscon streetcar, opponents said that most of the surrounding development occurs because of tax incentives. Any thoughts about that?

[Spartan]

In an article I read about the potential Tuscon streetcar, opponents said that most of the surrounding development occurs because of tax incentives. Any thoughts about that?

Well actually, that's not true. I don't know where you saw that, but in many cases, it's actually the opposite. To fund streetcar expansions, often what happens in Portland and Seattle is they levy a tax district that raises property taxes on the TOD impact area, issues bonds, and then repays the bonds over time with the new property taxes on the infill area.

I want to make a few essential comments about the concept of economic development regarding the streetcar. First, there is a difference between the streetcar attracting investment to the greater metropolitan area and attracting demand to the greater metropolitan area. Of course the streetcar improves quality of life in Oklahoma City and makes our downtown much more attractive, and that will interest many prospective new residents, but the potential for it to actually grow regional housing demand isn't really relevant. But it does attract investment that otherwise would not come to OKC. That is because people are right, that it does shift demand from one area (suburbs) to another area (downtown). It does this in a natural way that doesn't involve leveraging taxes to make life unpleasant for suburbanites.

There are investment opportunities that exist with urban development that don't hardly exist with suburban developments. If they decide to let MAPS3 pay for a FULL downtown streetcar system, as voters expected, then there will be a lot of investment from OUTSIDE of OKC that would go into OKC real estate. Obviously this is not the case with suburban development. Furthermore, just compare the cost differential between suburban housing and urban housing. Which do you think is better for the economy?

Then regarding convention center economic development potential, I think that is an argument of the 1990s. It was very true then. Now? It seems to be proving a lot less true. I think streetcar economic development is the trend of the future. How ironic that OKC always seems 10-20 years behind, and then we wonder why? This is why. We are so convinced by looking at old data and old arguments, and we refuse to believe new data and new arguments until 10-20 years too late. That is what we are seeing with the convention center v. streetcar.

But even if you want to go above trends, which I believe is needed (there is no point in just "keeping up with trends" regardless of what economic development argument someone gives you), then it should come down to livability and quality of life. Which the convention center does nothing for, as a black hole in our downtown that doesn't interact with people at all.

[Kerry]

Maybe if we called it the American Indian Cultural Train Ride and said it would generate $3.8 billion in NEW economic activity Rover would understand it better.

[Popsy]

I have always questioned the numbers relating to economic impact touted by streetcar proponets, but now I think I am getting a clearer picture. If anything is built near a streetcar line, then the proponets will claim it as being because of the streetcars. It is too bad that the streetcar was not in place two years ago. Had it been, proponets could claim the devon tower, project 180, the new I-40 replacement, the new convention center and central park and anything else that happens, even if it had nothing to do with the street car. Those projects add to what? Two billion? Just think how other streetcar proponents in other cities could point to OKC as a shining example of the impact streetcars have had in the southern plains. I guess since streetcars have been proposed for a while it might be possible to claim those numbers anyway.
.

[Larry OKC]

I have always questioned the numbers relating to economic impact touted by streetcar proponets, but now I think I am getting a clearer picture. If anything is built near a streetcar line, then the proponets will claim it as being because of the streetcars. It is too bad that the streetcar was not in place two years ago. Had it been, proponets could claim the devon tower, project 180, the new I-40 replacement, the new convention center and central park and anything else that happens, even if it had nothing to do with the street car. Those projects add to what? Two billion? Just think how other streetcar proponents in other cities could point to OKC as a shining example of the impact streetcars have had in the southern plains. I guess since streetcars have been proposed for a while it might be possible to claim those numbers anyway.
.

Which is exactly what the Chamber did with their economic impact of MAPS "study". They included anything and everything that fell within a certain boundary that happened after the MAPS vote passed. Including the I-40 relocation and the Memorial.

[Spartan]

Which is exactly what the Chamber did with their economic impact of MAPS "study". They included anything and everything that fell within a certain boundary that happened after the MAPS vote passed. Including the I-40 relocation and the Memorial.

That's exactly what I was going to say. So it's ok to attribute this to the "OKC renaissance" (aka a convention center and a sports team) but to attribute these sorts of spin-off investments to a so-called "liberal" idea like public transit, that's obscene! lol

[Rover]

Maybe if we called it the American Indian Cultural Train Ride and said it would generate $3.8 billion in NEW economic activity Rover would understand it better.

I understand perfectly...that people want simple answers to complex problems. That everyone is an expert. That many think opinion is the same as fact. That many perspectives are myopic. That prejudices exist.

[HOT ROD]

popsy, the claim is not for the entire route per se, but new PRIVATE development that was a direct result of the streetcar and typically within a 2-3 block radius of stops (also known as TOD-Transit Oriented Development).

If the streetcar was already running and there was a stop within 2-3 blocks of the brand new Devon, then yes we could claim it just like Seattle Streetcar claims the Vulcan developments in South Lake Union (Paul Allen). It likely would NOT include projects that were already planned before the streetcar and likely would not include the I-40 relocation since it is nowhere near any of the 'current' routing. It likely also would not include project 180/convention center/central park since like I-40 they are not private developments.

Portland, for sure, is absolutely positively streetcar development - I have visited PDX numerous times before the Pearl District was developed and after - it is NIGHT AND DAY, unbelievable!!! and ALL due to the streetcar.

[Popsy]

popsy, the claim is not for the entire route per se, but new PRIVATE development that was a direct result of the streetcar and typically within a 2-3 block radius of stops (also known as TOD-Transit Oriented Development).

If the streetcar was already running and there was a stop within 2-3 blocks of the brand new Devon, then yes we could claim it just like Seattle Streetcar claims the Vulcan developments in South Lake Union (Paul Allen). It likely would NOT include projects that were already planned before the streetcar and likely would not include the I-40 relocation since it is nowhere near any of the 'current' routing. It likely also would not include project 180/convention center/central park since like I-40 they are not private developments.

Portland, for sure, is absolutely positively streetcar development - I have visited PDX numerous times before the Pearl District was developed and after - it is NIGHT AND DAY, unbelievable!!! and ALL due to the streetcar.

Hot Rod,

Aren't you helping me make my point by saying the Devon Tower could be claimed? There would no valid relationship between the two. If proponents of streetcars want to claim an economic impact it should be because whatever was built was only built near that stop because of the streetcar. I don't know if Portland and OKC are comparable in anyway, but it seems to me if there was really demand due to the OKC streetcar, land speculators would be out buying properties along the route to get ready for the onslaught of demand.