Maps 3

[Cocaine]

I wonder dow much of these maps 3 projects will actually get done.

[rcjunkie]

I wonder dow much of these maps 3 projects will actually get done.

That's an easy one, all of them.

[dmoor82]

I wonder dow much of these maps 3 projects will actually get done.

Just by going on track record of all the other MAPS votes/projects,all of these projects will be completed!

[Laramie]

That one thing I can say about the MAPS PROJECTS (MAPS I, MAPS II for KIDS, MAPS for HOOPS) the city has maintained a track record for delivery. MAPS III shouldn't be any different. MAPS for HOOPS has improved the Chesapeake Energy Arena which is used for many events as well as the NBA Thunder being its anchor tenant. The Thunder's new practice facility which many people questioned, does provide for the team and it is City-owned. The amount of support the players and the Thunder personnel give back to this community is immeasureable.

[Snowman]

Today's maps3 board meeting video seems to only cover like items 1 & 2 before cutting out abruptly, did anything interesting happen in discussion of the like 12 agenda items that got cut out?

[Larry OKC]

Just by going on track record of all the other MAPS votes/projects,all of these projects will be completed!

Yes indeed. And by that same track record, we can expect that they will NOT be built:

1) On time
2) On budget
3) As promised

Currently there are several MAPS 3 projects that have already followed the pattern.

[rcjunkie]

Yes indeed. And by that same track record, we can expect that they will NOT be built:

1) On time
2) On budget
3) As promised

Currently there are several MAPS 3 projects that have already followed the pattern.

Glad you didn't disappoint us. try to have a Good Day Mr. OKC Negative.

[dmoor82]

Yes indeed. And by that same track record, we can expect that they will NOT be built:

1) On time
2) On budget
3) As promised

Currently there are several MAPS 3 projects that have already followed the pattern.

I'm gonna guess you voted NO to all the MAPS votes?Other than my quick comment,you are %100 correct but what would OKC be w/o the MAPS taxes?My guess is that we would have NO NBA,NO improved or rebuilt schools,NO Boathouse row and just maybe no Devon tower and the P180 that goes with it,I'm just guessing!

[Bellaboo]

I'm gonna guess you voted NO to all the MAPS votes?Other than my quick comment,you are %100 correct but what would OKC be w/o the MAPS taxes?My guess is that we would have NO NBA,NO improved or rebuilt schools,NO Boathouse row and just maybe no Devon tower and the P180 that goes with it,I'm just guessing!

dmoor82 - you're spot on........................about OKC without MAPS

[dmoor82]

I remember back in 1993 when the first MAPS had passed and thinking WOW,a 20,000 seat arena and a canal!I think it is very safe to say that all installments of the MAPS projects have been extremely successful and each have had some sort of spin off or spurred development from each of the projects.IF the first vote had not passed back in 93',Bricktown might very well still be dead and our idea of a good night would only consist of dinner at Spaghetti Warehouse.Each action in life has either a positive or negative reaction,and I think with each MAPS project built creates civic pride within the community,because we know that our city is thriving BECAUSE of us!

[dankrutka]

The amazing amount of progress is not enough to stop the determined negativism of Larry OKC - the king of Debbie Downer.

[Larry OKC]

Glad you didn't disappoint us. try to have a Good Day Mr. OKC Negative.

I prefer Mr. OKC Realistic, but no to worry, I am having a great day. I actually was born here, moved back in my college days and continue to live and work here.

I'm gonna guess you voted NO to all the MAPS votes?Other than my quick comment,you are %100 correct but what would OKC be w/o the MAPS taxes?My guess is that we would have NO NBA,NO improved or rebuilt schools,NO Boathouse row and just maybe no Devon tower and the P180 that goes with it,I'm just guessing!

You are correct. I voted No to every round of MAPS for various reasons.

MAPS was a mixed bag of items, some of which government should be involved with and some not. Also, the original MAPS Ballot/Ordinance was illegal due to the logrolling nature of lumping unrelated projects together in an all-or-nothing format. The City admiotted this and promised that they wouldn't do it again (then they did)

MAPS 4 Kids. The City of Oklahoma City has nothing to do with the school district and as such shouldn't have been involved. It should have been entirely up to the school district. While new buildings have been built the purpose behind those new/renovated buildings haven't materialized. A few years behind schedule (according to the Mayor) and untold multi-millions over budget.

MAPS for the NBA. Citizens paying for the place of business for a private, for profit professional sports team. no thanks. they can afford to build their own places of business and certainly don't deserve the naming rights etc to buildings they dont own.

MAPS 3. I wanted to vote for it as nearly all of the projects were ones where government should be involved. But then they went back to that nagging illegal Ballot format and I had to vote No on it.

The amazing amount of progress is not enough to stop the determined negativism of Larry OKC - the king of Debbie Downer.

Hey, I resemble that comment. LOL
If you want to dispute the historical facts, feel free.

Oh, by the way, you don't have to take my word for it...will let the Mayor's responsible for the various MAPS speak to the matter:
http://www.kansas.com/2010/06/06/134...ls-turned.html (think the link is now broken but it was an interview with the 3 mayors. Apparently someplace in Kansas was trying to do a MAPS style thing)

* The City Council must develop and maintain credibility with the public: Get quality projects done on time and on budget.

"It's vital. Just vital," Norick said. "If you don't have credibility with the public, you won't get anything done.

"As long as the city and your leadership does and says what it's going to do, the voters will keep voting for what we want to do.

"But if you trip up, you lose credibility, you lose the faith of your voters and it's over."

Any project that veers off-track, coming in late, over-budget or less than advertised, is disaster, the mayors said.

"It's a really delicate balance," Humphreys said. "You keep credibility as long as you keep performing and you keep encouraging people to invest in the right kind of things, keep investing in themselves."

How many of the original MAPS projects:
1) veered off track?
2) were behind schedule?
3) over budget?
4) less than advertised?

By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

[dankrutka]

And by the definition of any reasonable person, the MAPs projects have been an unqualified success. Luckily, most people disagree with you. Hopefully, they continue to do so so this city might continue to succeed. It's easy to critique others...

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

- Teddy Roosevelt

[kevinpate]

... By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

I don't dispute that. But, I would absolutely dispute that OKC would be better off if none of the MAPs votes had ever passed.
The bottom line, for me anyway, is that even with the problems, cost overruns, iffy political posturing, ballot formats, yada, yada, yada, yada, OKC is better off having gone with the MAPs route than its citizens and visitors would be if the various votes had gone the other way.

For you, what's important is how they got there. For me, that's the yada, yada, yada, part. I'll take the arena naming rights as an example. That's a point you don't often skip over. It's a completely meaningless point to me, irrespective of whether the naming rights annually brings the team 1 grand, 1 million, 10 million, or more. The city is better off having the exposure, and the regular influx of people dropping dimes and dollars, than they would be if there wasn't a team in place and those 40 nights were a hodge podge of lesser events.

So while I agree MAPs could be handled better, the results make it easier to overlook that it wasn't. At least for many.

[Larry OKC]

Ah, so the end justifies the means...gotchya.

Overlooking it is exactly what they are expecting you to do. Congratulations. Until the voters demand otherwise, expect more of the same.

I would have whole heartedly supported MAPS 3 if they had only done what they said they were going to do before the ballot was unveiled. They didn't. Then the spinning, half-truths and in some cases out right lie machine of the campaign went into full gear. We are continuing to see the results of that and some of the most ardent supporters (even on this board) are slowly waking up to that realization (based on the posts i have been reading lately).

[okcpulse]

MAPS was a mixed bag of items, some of which government should be involved with and some not. Also, the original MAPS Ballot/Ordinance was illegal due to the logrolling nature of lumping unrelated projects together in an all-or-nothing format. The City admiotted this and promised that they wouldn't do it again (then they did)

MAPS 4 Kids. The City of Oklahoma City has nothing to do with the school district and as such shouldn't have been involved. It should have been entirely up to the school district. While new buildings have been built the purpose behind those new/renovated buildings haven't materialized. A few years behind schedule (according to the Mayor) and untold multi-millions over budget.

MAPS for the NBA. Citizens paying for the place of business for a private, for profit professional sports team. no thanks. they can afford to build their own places of business and certainly don't deserve the naming rights etc to buildings they dont own.

MAPS 3. I wanted to vote for it as nearly all of the projects were ones where government should be involved. But then they went back to that nagging illegal Ballot format and I had to vote No on it.


By their own definition, MAPS qualified as being a "disaster."

MAPS wrapped up with every single project addressed. You are correct in that some of the projects were scaled back, however, all of the projects materialized. We all tend to forget the Civic Center Music Hall, built as planned. Same goes with the library and the fairgrounds. However, do you REALLY think any public project in ANY city is built as planned. Every project faces a revised budget. We forget that the solution most other cities seek is to bond out the funding gaps, not to mention the entire project itself is bonded, which leaves cities with years of debt to pay off. Oklahoma City never had to pay a penny of interest in the original MAPS. Why would you think the government shouldn't have been involved with some of the projects? These are all public facilities.

MAPS for Kids The City of Oklahoma City has everything to do with the school district. OKCPS is a public entity. Every single city in Oklahoma holds bond elections for public school projects. Not sure why MAPS for Kids comes as a surprise.

MAPS for the NBA. Honestly, Larry. The arena was scaled back the first go-round. NBA or no NBA, the arena needed the improvements. Let's quit using the NBA as a pawn over why the improvements shouldn't have happened. Have you been there lately? Wouldn't you agree that the improvements puts our facility up to par with others across the nation?

MAPS 3. So now that they've taken care of the log-rolling issue to no one's satisfaction, people can now use the 'vague' wording as an excuse to claim not all of the projects will get built. In reality, if the City of OKC did that, it would be a death knell for the entire MAPS series. Then we're back to square one with voter's disdain, and the next CIP package would fail at the polls. We can all agree to disagree over the various blemishes with the MAPS series, but I don't subscribe to nit-picking. While I agree the city needs to improve on project estimates on a pay-as-you-go program, to say that any part of MAPS was a failure is nothing more than a grudge-filled approach.

[rcjunkie]

MAPS wrapped up with every single project addressed. You are correct in that some of the projects were scaled back, however, all of the projects materialized. We all tend to forget the Civic Center Music Hall, built as planned. Same goes with the library and the fairgrounds. However, do you REALLY think any public project in ANY city is built as planned. Every project faces a revised budget. We forget that the solution most other cities seek is to bond out the funding gaps, not to mention the entire project itself is bonded, which leaves cities with years of debt to pay off. Oklahoma City never had to pay a penny of interest in the original MAPS. Why would you think the government shouldn't have been involved with some of the projects? These are all public facilities.

MAPS for Kids The City of Oklahoma City has everything to do with the school district. OKCPS is a public entity. Every single city in Oklahoma holds bond elections for public school projects. Not sure why MAPS for Kids comes as a surprise.

MAPS for the NBA. Honestly, Larry. The arena was scaled back the first go-round. NBA or no NBA, the arena needed the improvements. Let's quit using the NBA as a pawn over why the improvements shouldn't have happened. Have you been there lately? Wouldn't you agree that the improvements puts our facility up to par with others across the nation?

MAPS 3. So now that they've taken care of the log-rolling issue to no one's satisfaction, people can now use the 'vague' wording as an excuse to claim not all of the projects will get built. In reality, if the City of OKC did that, it would be a death knell for the entire MAPS series. Then we're back to square one with voter's disdain, and the next CIP package would fail at the polls. We can all agree to disagree over the various blemishes with the MAPS series, but I don't subscribe to nit-picking. While I agree the city needs to improve on project estimates on a pay-as-you-go program, to say that any part of MAPS was a failure is nothing more than a grudge-filled approach.

Save your breath, all MAPS projects could have been built exactly as planned, on or under budget, and he still would complain. Some are never happy and bitch because they can!!

[Bellaboo]

No comment, this is been re-hashed umpteen times.........

A few folks out there in the world just don't get it, and for that matter, never will get it.

[Larry OKC]

Bellaboo: how true, how true.

[Rover]

http://newsok.com/article/3634521

Was this position aggressively recruited to? Given the controversy expressed here on project mismanagement and cost overruns, was this the best hire? Now that Wenger is out what will his legacy be regards Maps? What will change with this hire?

Given the amount of money being spent, this is an important hire.

[Spartan]

I don't believe that Eric Wenger was popular with many. Any time you have somebody who clings to their job by appeasing only their bosses, you have an awkward situation, and it doesn't take much for them to lose favor with the only people who were keeping them around. I don't know 100% of the details surrounding Wenger's departure, but I can also say that I question anyone who really thinks the Project Manager carries that much weight to begin with.

How do we know that Wenger is the one who wanted MAPS3 to be bastardized? All we do know is that Wenger's fiscal figures were consistently off. And while that's not helpful, it isn't going to give one project an explicit advantage over another. I just don't see the change-up as that big of a deal.

By the way Rover, sorry if my last response to you (about "conspiracies") was rather terse. I don't think I was in a bad mood or anything, but it was a rash knee-jerk on second thought. I am very curious about your thoughts on Wenger. That said, I am shocked that they haven't decided to fold project management under the duties of the Alliance. That's pretty much why the Alliance was created, and we know that they will take the lead on many aspects of MAPS.

[Pete]

Wenger isn't out, he's been promoted and will still be heavily involved in all these civic projects.

[rcjunkie]

Wenger isn't out, he's been promoted and will still be heavily involved in all these civic projects.

With his promotion to Department head of the Public Works Division, he'll be more directly involved then he was in his previous position.

[Rover]

So, with all the cost overruns, bad communications, etc. on P180, the Conference Center, Central Park, etc., why is this appointment so low key and no one seems to care who it is or that the same people will continue to manage the projects? We all talk about wanting to improve bad processes and decisions, but who is hired is pretty key to getting things done right.

[Steve]

Answer: almost certainly good.
Some, but not all, of the problems witnessed are, in my observation, due to a city staff that is stretched farthest that I've seen since the mid-90s when city staff, again shrunk by cuts, etc, were hit with adding bombing recovery efforts to an already full plate. The bench needs to be replenished with good, qualified people. Todd enjoys a good reputation and I've never heard a critical comment about him either during his prior years at City Hall or out in private practice.