Streetcar

[goldenHurricane22]

I will say whenever I have my parents or extended family visit, they love riding the streetcar to the point where they'll just like to get on to do a complete loop, then get off at the same spot--so I think that aspect of "amusement park ride" is going to be part of the street car in that it has some level of pizzazz that a bus doesn't provide (think San Fran's cable car or even the OKC Canal). Not to say that practicality/usability shouldn't be a priority, as that is what locals want, who have the potential to be a large userbase. Per Teo's comment, I don't see the Streetcar reaching a high level of practicality until more urban development (i.e. Classen Marquette and two new Midtown office buildings built right on the route, and a commuter rail to bring people downtown without cars) and an expanded Streetcar network occur. That said, I do think the Downtown loop can be improved by continuing south either on Robinson or E.K. Gaylord (to have it go by the Amtrak station, and that detour rail is already there) and not go into Bricktown. Would require running the Bricktown loop more.

Obviously I am not an urban planner, so take the design I did for fun with a grain of salt, but some grand system like shown below would make all the big downtown districts accessible and connect many of the surrounding neighborhoods, which would likely see much higher usage, especially if a commuter rail is assumed to exist. (This design assumes that all the new routes are double-railed/both ways and that true rapid buses run down Reno, N 23rd, Shields, Eastern, and May). Now if such expansions would be worth the cost or if any of these route are realistic, that's a whole other debate. But it's fun to think of what could be.

[Jeepnokc]

I think a line that ran down sheridan to western area, south through farmers market, over exchange to stockyards and then out 15th to meridan and then south to airport would make sense on tying in several districts (3 of 4 if you consider meridian hotel area a district) and ties in airport.

(full disclosure that I am a stakeholder on Sheridan but still think it makes most sense)

[dankrutka]

While I know this is an overly simple route, I would have loved one line that ran North/South on Walker from from SW 25th to NW 29th. This would cover Capitol Hill, Scissortail Park/Convention Center, Myriad Gardens, Central Business District, Bombing Memorial, Midtown, Uptown, and Paseo. Then you run an East/West line on Reno Ave from Klein Ave to Eastern Ave that covers Farmers Market, Scissortail, Myriad Garden, Amtrak, Bricktown, Greyhound Station, FAM/OKANA. Those two routes would actually move people efficiently far enough distances to make the streetcar useful. Moreover, there's a ton of development opportunities along the line for those that think of the streetcar as an economic engine. I also think those routes would be really successful.

[Laramie]

While I know this is an overly simple route, I would have loved one line that ran North/South on Walker from from SW 25th to NW 29th. This would cover Capitol Hill, Scissortail Park/Convention Center, Myriad Gardens, Central Business District, Bombing Memorial, Midtown, Uptown, and Paseo. Then you run an East/West line on Reno Ave from Klein Ave to Eastern Ave that covers Farmers Market, Scissortail, Myriad Garden, Amtrak, Bricktown, Greyhound Station, FAM/OKANA. Those two routes would actually move people efficiently far enough distances to make the streetcar useful. Moreover, there's a ton of development opportunities along the line for those that think of the streetcar as an economic engine. I also think those routes would be really successful.

Agree 100%

Fund streetcar alterations along with the New NBA arena and Bricktown canal extension.

[BoulderSooner]

While I know this is an overly simple route, I would have loved one line that ran North/South on Walker from from SW 25th to NW 29th. This would cover Capitol Hill, Scissortail Park/Convention Center, Myriad Gardens, Central Business District, Bombing Memorial, Midtown, Uptown, and Paseo. Then you run an East/West line on Reno Ave from Klein Ave to Eastern Ave that covers Farmers Market, Scissortail, Myriad Garden, Amtrak, Bricktown, Greyhound Station, FAM/OKANA. Those two routes would actually move people efficiently far enough distances to make the streetcar useful. Moreover, there's a ton of development opportunities along the line for those that think of the streetcar as an economic engine. I also think those routes would be really successful.

Politically. There is about 0 chance getting the street car built from 13th-23rd on Walker.

Those neighborhoods would never let that happen. Then or now.

[dankrutka]

Politically. There is about 0 chance getting the street car built from 13th-23rd on Walker.

Those neighborhoods would never let that happen. Then or now.

You're probably right, but you don't even have to have stops in those neighborhoods if the NIMBY opposition is strong. You could just have stops on 13th and 23rd. Of course, I'd dream of having a stop in my neighborhood if I lived there, but I know most people with wealthier homes are accustomed to transportation systems increasing class and racial segregation so as to isolate them to in more homogenous neighborhoods. The same thing happens in Dallas where wealthier neighborhoods north of downtown have fought tooth and nail against the DART, buses, or even sidewalks being built. I just wish this attitude was at least isolated to more distant suburbs, not older neighborhoods in the core.

[Teo9969]

I remember Sid Burgess suggesting that route. While it would likely be the most successful route we could have done, I honestly don't think it would be substantially more successful than the current route.

The longer I live here, the more I think we're 20 years away from being able to institute any sort of effective transit system. We need more bodies concentrated between Portland and Lincoln, Memorial and SW 29th. If we could add 200,000 residents in that area over 20 years, we'd be able to come up with a much more comprehensive system that gets regular utilization.

[SEMIweather]

I remember Sid Burgess suggesting that route. While it would likely be the most successful route we could have done, I honestly don't think it would be substantially more successful than the current route.

The longer I live here, the more I think we're 20 years away from being able to institute any sort of effective transit system. We need more bodies concentrated between Portland and Lincoln, Memorial and SW 29th. If we could add 200,000 residents in that area over 20 years, we'd be able to come up with a much more comprehensive system that gets regular utilization.

I pretty much agree with the second paragraph of this comment. I’m on Round Two of living in the Paseo, and my calculus has basically never changed from walking anywhere under a mile and driving anywhere further away. Our roads simply are not heavily trafficked enough to justify a different decision-making process.

[Mississippi Blues]

I wouldn’t even say the roads aren’t trafficked enough to make walking or taking transportation more appealing. For me, as someone that needs little justification to walk or take public transit, the infrastructure for anything besides a personal vehicle just isn’t worth the effort in most situations. As is, it’s more appealing to take public transit if you live 15-25 minutes from city center than if you live in the core itself and even that’s only in very specific situations.

[dankrutka]

I pretty much agree with the second paragraph of this comment. I’m on Round Two of living in the Paseo, and my calculus has basically never changed from walking anywhere under a mile and driving anywhere further away. Our roads simply are not heavily trafficked enough to justify a different decision-making process.

Yeah, but this also like not building a bridge because people aren't swimming across the river. I disagree with the notion that a streetcar with a good route would fail. It's not going to be the NYC subway, but I think a better route could [obviously guessing here] triple its ridership. Of course, this I say this as someone who doesn't own a car. Maybe I'm overoptimistic that other people would prefer to live without one.

[Teo9969]

Yeah, but this also like not building a bridge because people aren't swimming across the river. I disagree with the notion that a streetcar with a good route would fail. It's not going to be the NYC subway, but I think a better route could [obviously guessing here] triple its ridership. Of course, this I say this as someone who doesn't own a car. Maybe I'm overoptimistic that other people would prefer to live without one.

I know I would love to live without a car, but even if so, a 4.5 mile track of Street Car probably wouldn't regularly fit into my plans unless I happened to live right on the route and need it for work.

The point I made above about extending the system North to South still hinges on a quality local bus system to collect people withing a few miles of the outside area and then dropping them off timely for a transfer to the Street Car. So if you live @ Villa & 63rd, you need to be collected, taken to NWX/Classes, transfer to street car and then wait for the right line to ensure you don't end up somewhere you don't intend to go.

Like, that's doable, but at some point the 30-45 minutes you'd lose on each of those trips just isn't worth not owning the car.

I think the Streetcar in it's current format could also get some major improved ridership just from an Edmond to Norman BNSF route.

[dankrutka]

I know I would love to live without a car, but even if so, a 4.5 mile track of Street Car probably wouldn't regularly fit into my plans unless I happened to live right on the route and need it for work.

I agree with your point that a streetcar wouldn't fundamentally change transportation for most people, but people like me would at least have the option of choosing to live near a stop and use it regularly. I know that it's a small minority who would do that, but in the simple N/S route I proposed, you could live near Paseo, Uptown, or Midtown and use the streetcar to get downtown (and connect to Amtrak) reliably and quickly. That makes it viable for enough areas that some people will choose to take it up. I suspect the streetcar has very few current riders who actually use it for transporation.

[OKC Guy]

I haven’t posted in this thread in a some time but a refresher the SC is a massive failure. We need to cut our losses and pave over it like we did for the last 2 SC’s in our history. Here’s my overiding opinions (yes, opinions and may not mesh with others):

- We are a car city and trying to force people to something that is static and not flexible. You can’t pick up lines and move them. Yet as city grows the existing route is more and more antiquated. Due to 235/40 the only way to grow is west and north. And the SC should have been a tic tac toe design. Should have had 2 east west routes with double tracks and 3 north/south routes with double tracks. Then they go back and forth on same track and are faster, thus can move people faster. One of the E/W tracks should have included medical district, so many potential lunch and after work potential was lost from thousands of highly paid workers. TTT design would have been easier to manage and get places. Would have been easier and cheaper to make an extended spur as well. Closed loop system is just not doable unless tourist with ample time to waste. Free or not its never going to work, we wasted our money once lets not waste more by expanding it.

- Now, I always offer suggestions and had stated this years ago. Since we are a car city (roads vs rail) we could have taken the SC money and had one of the best central city bus systems around. Could have purchased 50 to 100 smaller luxury vans and flooded the central city with them on fast schedules. Could have made them free since we all paid for MAPS anyways. Then could have had outer city buses added to get to where central city buses are. For the cost of SC we lost out on that chance. Micro lux vans can get in/around downtown so much easier than those giant buses we have now. Imagine businesses paying to putting ad signs on them too, knowing they can move people to their business. Imagine medical district if all these micro vans can move them fast to downtown for lunch stopping at eating places. Or event nights you can flood downtown with more.

Thats the short version. And heck, could have paired up with Canoo to get rechargable vans at discount to help showcase Canoo working. OKC had a chance to be a model for micro buses and how much easier it is for them to move around downtown. We are stuck on SC and giant unfilled buses instead. We are trying do too many models now and MAPS is getting long in the tooth plus all this talk of new stadium, if true that means no money for other projects. Now we will spend a yearly fortune just to keep high cost SC system workng. As it ages the costs skyrocket for replacement cars.

I think we missed an opportjnity to do something great with micro lux vans. If trips are faster you then don’t need those giant monster buses in central city.

Again, my opinion amd some may not like it, some will. I hope we make wise choices going forward.

[okccowan]

I was just in Buffalo and they have a dual track streetcar line that is free downtown (it extends farther, but is not free all the way). It seemed quite popular

[HOT ROD]

in no way should the streetcar be paved over, again, like the mistake OKC made of history.

If you really LOOK at history, you'll notice the streetcars were successful because they went somewhere, bringing people to and from downtown. THAT is why the streetcar isn't as successful (I don't call it a failure), if it were free, already had residential density, and/or had a spine, it would be very successful. This current iteration was meant to help spur downtown development, plain and simple, as people on here have said many times. It was meant to be expanded, and THAT's what we need to do for it and transit in OKC in general to be successful.

So, instead of paving over the tracks like transit haters always like to bring up, we need to add more track building reliable spine EW and NS and extensions into the rest of the inner city. Furthermore, we need the Commuter Rail and Bus options going into the suburbs from the also need to be realized Santa Fe Multimodal Hub.

Build this out and tell me it wont be a success.

[David]

I haven’t posted in this thread in a some time but a refresher the SC is a massive failure. We need to cut our losses and pave over it like we did for the last 2 SC’s in our history. Here’s my overiding opinions (yes, opinions and may not mesh with others):

- We are a car city and trying to force people to something that is static and not flexible. You can’t pick up lines and move them. Yet as city grows the existing route is more and more antiquated. Due to 235/40 the only way to grow is west and north. And the SC should have been a tic tac toe design. Should have had 2 east west routes with double tracks and 3 north/south routes with double tracks. Then they go back and forth on same track and are faster, thus can move people faster. One of the E/W tracks should have included medical district, so many potential lunch and after work potential was lost from thousands of highly paid workers. TTT design would have been easier to manage and get places. Would have been easier and cheaper to make an extended spur as well. Closed loop system is just not doable unless tourist with ample time to waste. Free or not its never going to work, we wasted our money once lets not waste more by expanding it.

- Now, I always offer suggestions and had stated this years ago. Since we are a car city (roads vs rail) we could have taken the SC money and had one of the best central city bus systems around. Could have purchased 50 to 100 smaller luxury vans and flooded the central city with them on fast schedules. Could have made them free since we all paid for MAPS anyways. Then could have had outer city buses added to get to where central city buses are. For the cost of SC we lost out on that chance. Micro lux vans can get in/around downtown so much easier than those giant buses we have now. Imagine businesses paying to putting ad signs on them too, knowing they can move people to their business. Imagine medical district if all these micro vans can move them fast to downtown for lunch stopping at eating places. Or event nights you can flood downtown with more.

Thats the short version. And heck, could have paired up with Canoo to get rechargable vans at discount to help showcase Canoo working. OKC had a chance to be a model for micro buses and how much easier it is for them to move around downtown. We are stuck on SC and giant unfilled buses instead. We are trying do too many models now and MAPS is getting long in the tooth plus all this talk of new stadium, if true that means no money for other projects. Now we will spend a yearly fortune just to keep high cost SC system workng. As it ages the costs skyrocket for replacement cars.

I think we missed an opportjnity to do something great with micro lux vans. If trips are faster you then don’t need those giant monster buses in central city.

Again, my opinion amd some may not like it, some will. I hope we make wise choices going forward.

Summing this opinion up shorter: OKC is a 'car city' so we should never have fixed transit.

[HOT ROD]

OKC wasn't always a 'car city'. OKC was MADE INTO becoming a car city just as many other major cities have been;

no reason why OKC can't have good transit - especially in the core central city area.

[Cocaine]

The real solution to this are street car lines along corridors where people would use. So downtown up MLK to the Adventure district, A line from downtown up Classen to Penn square another one, another line from downtown through capitol hill to OCCC. Along with a 23rd street line going from MLK to May, a NW 10th line going past the Fair grounds to OSU OKC, and finally a SW 44th line. Each of these corridors would get use and they wouldn't be gimmicky it wouldn't be something people only take when they fly in for a few days and don't want to rent a car. It would be something people to work, school, grocery store, church, or to go out drinking, etc. Add in some NW Expressway, S Shields and Memorial Road BRT then it's possible for more people to actually use it.

[Laramie]

Like the plan, Cocaine.

Only problem, the streetcar wasn't intended for city-wide transit or to replace Embark bus service. The Streetcar was to be a shuttle service among Bricktown, Downtown and Midtown.

You want to see the ridership increase. Make it free for one year.

[BoulderSooner]

Like the plan, Cocaine.

Only problem, the streetcar wasn't intended for city-wide transit or to replace Embark bus service. The Streetcar was to be a shuttle service among Bricktown, Downtown and Midtown.

You want to see the ridership increase. Make it free for one year.

street car to 63rd street up classen is part of the long term plan and should have been part of maps 4

[TheTravellers]

...
You want to see the ridership increase. Make it free for one year.

And promote the hell out of it everywhere you can - all social media, flyers, city PR people mentioning it every time they can (in every format - TV, print, social media) for any major event anywhere close to a stop, etc.

[Laramie]

street car to 63rd street up classen is part of the long term plan and should have been part of maps 4

It's wasn't.

So it's time to move on--trouble shoot and fix the system we have before investing more than 6.9 miles of extra track that will cost more than the current $57.2 million it cost to lay 4.6 miles of track.

[Just the facts]

Step 1 has to be to fix the current route. We can't keep building on a shaky foundation. Start with 0.65 miles of new track to get bi-directional travel through AutoAlley.

[kukblue1]

Thought I been the streetcar thread back to life. What have the numbers been lately. Have they increased with conventions in town over the summer. Still always empty before thunder games. Even opening night with a down pour I saw people walking in the rain while I sat on an empty street car.

[Zuplar]

I'm looking forward to trying out the streetcar next weekend. My wife and I are staying at the Omni for the weekend and my plan was to utilize it.