Streetcar

[Laramie]

In all fairness to the streetcar routes especially in the vicinity of the park, hotel & convention center; the streets are in disarray with all the construction, street barriers & detours in place. Making comparisons to Kansas City's free ride 2 miles circular SC system that services a vibrant downtown isn't a fair gauge.

There is no way you can accurately gauge the streetcar's potential, success or failure. We didn't build the streetcar with hopes that it would pay for itself; we certainly don't want it to a drag on the city financially.

We have enough streetcar rail (4.8 miles) already established; the streetcar was more of a mini-transit mechanism to service Downtown, Midtown & Bricktown. Somewhat of a novelty in that it adds a little prestige to larger cities; our streetcars are colorful, sleek and modern--leaves an impression on visitors.

If OKC were to make the streetcar a free ride; you'd probably see the ridership numbers triple.

[RedDollar]

For what it's worth, DART and TRE operate in this fashion as well. Pay your fare and board, but nobody checks every ticket. It'll just take a little time for people to get used to, that's all.

It doesn't matter if anyone pays a fare, because the taxpayers are gonna pick up the tab for this boondoggle.

Year after year after year, money will be appropriated from the General Fund to cover the operating losses of streetcar.

So who really cares if anyone pays a fare ? Everything is free !!

And this is just one of a multitude of reasons I'm voting NO on MAPS4 .

[HangryHippo]

It doesn't matter if anyone pays a fare, because the taxpayers are gonna pick up the tab for this boondoggle.

Year after year after year, money will be appropriated from the General Fund to cover the operating losses of streetcar.

So who really cares if anyone pays a fare ? Everything is free !!

And this is just one of a multitude of reasons I'm voting NO on MAPS4 .

lulz. It's just like subsidizing the "free" roads!

[RedDollar]

lulz. It's just like subsidizing the "free" roads!

Terrible, simplistic analogy that's been beat to death.

[Plutonic Panda]

lulz. It's just like subsidizing the "free" roads!

cars are the least subsidized form of transit that exist and the highest user capital cost as well.

[HangryHippo]

Terrible, simplistic analogy that's been beat to death.

Okay. Lulz

[dankrutka]

cars are the least subsidized form of transit that exist and the highest user capital cost as well.

Can you explain this? I would think car infrastructure requires massive public spending. The cost of roads, highways, repairs, etc. would be far more subsidized than all other forms of transit... combined.

[Plutonic Panda]

Can you explain this? I would think car infrastructure requires massive public spending. The cost of roads, highways, repairs, etc. would be far more subsidized than all other forms of transit... combined.

Sure! This article has a great run down on costs and subsidies of transit modes. This can obviously vary and is more varied with transit as the more people that use it the more impactful revenue and subsidies would be.

https://opportunityurbanism.org/2019...idies-by-mode/

[dankrutka]

Sure! This article has a great run down on costs and subsidies of transit modes. This can obviously vary and is more varied with transit as the more people that use it the more impactful revenue and subsidies would be.

https://opportunityurbanism.org/2019...idies-by-mode/

I read through the article, but to be honest, I don't have the 1-2 hours to work through all the details. Obviously, the organization has an agenda to prove suburbs are good. That's fine. New urbanists have an agenda too. I just think the former is generally wrong and latter right in what's better for the environment, people's heath, and local economies. Anyway, some of the data is obviously and purposely skewed. For example, comparing subsidies per mile is silly considering the entire point of urban transit is to reduce the miles traveled. Anyway, thanks for sharing even though I'm not really buying their interpretation, selection, and framing of data.

[TheTravellers]

Sure! This article has a great run down on costs and subsidies of transit modes. This can obviously vary and is more varied with transit as the more people that use it the more impactful revenue and subsidies would be.

https://opportunityurbanism.org/2019...idies-by-mode/

Just want to point out that per Wikipedia, our streetcar's cost per mile (including the cost of the streetcars) is $29.6 million, and the article you posted says that the least expensive light rail line under construction at the time the article was written (Sep 2019) is $75 million per mile (probably not including the cost of the rail cars). So while the article is a good generalization, it appears our streetcar is way under normal costs, not sure how that translates into actual dollars in subsidies, though.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just want to point out that per Wikipedia, our streetcar's cost per mile (including the cost of the streetcars) is $29.6 million, and the article you posted says that the least expensive light rail line under construction at the time the article was written (Sep 2019) is $75 million per mile (probably not including the cost of the rail cars). So while the article is a good generalization, it appears our streetcar is way under normal costs, not sure how that translates into actual dollars in subsidies, though.

Good point! Our streetcar uses a single wire being a loop system though I’m not educated enough in the engineering aspect of civil projects to know exactly what the difference between rapid light rail and a streetcar system.

I should also point out this article I posts leaves much to be desired as you pointed out some flaws. Infrastructure is complex and I’m not convinced light rail is as subsidized as this article claims. I’m generally in favor of subsidized transportation anyways as I think the poor(monetarily), students, government employees, minors,and disabled should be able to ride free. I don’t support free fares entirely but I don’t fare enforcement either. So for the most part I’d base it on an honor system and let those who can pay do so as it would be policy. I know it sounds silly but I think more people would abide by it than most think. There are times I’ve hopped turnstiles and even ran from transit police who will pursue you when I couldn’t pay. Though almost always I pay when I have it.

I think there are many factors into how different modes of transportation are subsidized. I support it so it doesn’t bother me. My beef with the streetcar which I’ve emphasized is it doesn’t move fast enough though I suppose most in OKC don’t care about that. I support streetcar for Edmond as a novelty and tool to connect a college town with its downtown and university but for a major city like OKC it needs an elevated or subterranean line that moves faster. The demand isn’t there yet than build enhanced bus service.

But since that hope is gone I support backing the streetcar and I think the best way now is to ban cars from using the streetcar lane and removing adjacent parking to the streetcar, a physical barrier between the line & other lanes, and installing protected bike lanes. I bet if this is done end to end travels are reduced, capacity increases, reliability increases, and ridership goes up.

[Plutonic Panda]

I read through the article, but to be honest, I don't have the 1-2 hours to work through all the details. Obviously, the organization has an agenda to prove suburbs are good. That's fine. New urbanists have an agenda too. I just think the former is generally wrong and latter right in what's better for the environment, people's heath, and local economies. Anyway, some of the data is obviously and purposely skewed. For example, comparing subsidies per mile is silly considering the entire point of urban transit is to reduce the miles traveled. Anyway, thanks for sharing even though I'm not really buying their interpretation, selection, and framing of data.

New urbanism is specially formulated to address and include cars. To the extreme anti-car crowd even this is now too pro-car for some to chew.

I don’t see a problem with a per mile comparison. There are articles posted all the time by Vox(curbed) and CityLab or Strongtowns, with those publications having big biases. Yes New Geography is biased towards suburbs. Your preference to urban areas is great but the point cars are the least subsidized form of transportation is true and even can be argued they are less subsidized than that article claims.

I like new urbanism though I prefer the traditional urban layout seen in many older cities like Philadelphia. But it I still prefer suburbs over anything. Good for the environment or not, people have a right to choose how they want to live.

[catch22]

It doesn't matter if anyone pays a fare, because the taxpayers are gonna pick up the tab for this boondoggle.

Year after year after year, money will be appropriated from the General Fund to cover the operating losses of streetcar.

So who really cares if anyone pays a fare ? Everything is free !!

And this is just one of a multitude of reasons I'm voting NO on MAPS4 .

every year dollars are earmarked out of the general fund to pay for the losses incurred by our streets.

[TheTravellers]

Good point! Our streetcar uses a single wire being a loop system though I’m not educated enough in the engineering aspect of civil projects to know exactly what the difference between rapid light rail and a streetcar system.
...
But since that hope is gone I support backing the streetcar and I think the best way now is to ban cars from using the streetcar lane and removing adjacent parking to the streetcar, a physical barrier between the line & other lanes, and installing protected bike lanes. I bet if this is done end to end travels are reduced, capacity increases, reliability increases, and ridership goes up.

Yes, absolutely to the last paragraph, OKC needs, needs, needs, to get its sh*t together WRT pedestrians, bicycles and streetcar.

For the first paragraph, I had gone to this article to see if I could find out what the difference is, and the author lays out the major differences, but in the end pretty much says "Good luck, almost every light-rail system has streetcar aspects, and vice versa". It is pretty good at just listing all that goes into defining (as much as it can be) streetcar and light-rail.

https://ggwash.org/view/36980/how-to...and-light-rail

Oh, and I think PluPan's article mentions how money is taken from other federal funds to go to the highway fund, per catch22's post, I think he allowed for $10 billion annually for that, not sure how much is done in OK/OKC for that.

[LakeEffect]

every year dollars are earmarked out of the general fund to pay for the losses incurred by our streets.

Not to mention that owning a car costs people a lot of money... https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loan...st-owning-car/

[Laramie]

Just love the word 'earmarked' reminds me of its use with Oklahoma's vocational & agriculture funds.

[HOT ROD]

the difference between streetcar and light rail are frequency, # of stops, ROW, and capacity. Light Rail tend to be less frequent and fewer stops since the trains ate often longer and stops more pronounced/expensive than streetcar but Ligh Rail makes up for it in capacity - running longer trains than streetcars normally do. Streetcars run almost exclusively in existing vehicular ROW whereas light rail will have much more dedicated ROW to achieve headways.

You can have streetcar approach a light rail when you double them up but then they are often termed the Eurpoean name Tram. They still run in the street and although more capacity than a three car streetcar that we have still far less than a typical light rail train.

Those are the differences. Both modes use the same (light vehicles) and most often overhead Catenary. There isn't a need for a second wire since the rail serves as ground to complete the circuit. 2nd wire is seen for trolleybus and trolleys since they have no ground.

Metro is always fully grade separated (above or under, fenced when on ground/never in the streets). Metro can be automated (Vancouver SkyTrain) but most systems require drivers. Automated metros have incredible frequencies and therefore great capacity without having very long trainsets. Metros have much higher pax loads than light rail but fewer stations since they are buildings vs. just a set of platforms in the open. Metros most often have 3rd rail for power however many new/Asian systems use overhead.

Mode comparison: Most/highest to least

* Frequency: Automated Metro, BRT, Metro, light rail, streetcar, bus, commuter express bus, commuter rail
* Passenger Capacity (Total): Metro, light rail, Commuter Rail, BRT, commuter express bus, streetcar, bus
* Passengers (each): Metro, Auto Metro, Commuter Rail, light rail, BRT, commuter express bus, streetcar, bus
* Grade Seg: Metro, Commuter Rail, light rail, streetcar, BRT, Commuter express bus, bus
* Electrification: (3rd Rail to Cat to Elect/Petro): Metro, light rail/streetcar, Commuter Rail, BRT, Commuter Express bus, bus
* Platform Length: Metro, Auto Metro, Commuter Rail, light rail, BRT, Streetcar, Commuter Bus, bus
* # stops: bus, streetcar, BRT, light rail, Auto metro, metro, Commuter Bus, Commuter Rail, Express bus
* Speed: Metro, Auto Metro, light rail, Commuter Rail, BRT, Express Bus, Commuter Bus, Bus

hope this helps.

[Anonymous.]

Embark announced free weekends (Fri-Sun) beginning November 22 and lasting through January 5.

Babysteps to fare-free.

[HangryHippo]

Embark announced free weekends (Fri-Sun) beginning November 22 and lasting through January 5.Babysteps to fare-free.

This is great.

[PaddyShack]

Embark announced free weekends (Fri-Sun) beginning November 22 and lasting through January 5.

Babysteps to fare-free.

Is this for buses too??

[Pete]

Is this for buses too??

I believe it's only for the streetcar.

[shawnw]

_usually_ the CIRC bus follows along with what the streetcar does, but I'd confirm with embark first.

[hoya]

Saw some dude getting towed at lunch today. Don't know how long the streetcar had been waiting, but glad to see they were getting the inconsiderate jerk out of the way.

[TheSteveHunt]

In all fairness to the streetcar routes especially in the vicinity of the park, hotel & convention center; the streets are in disarray with all the construction, street barriers & detours in place. Making comparisons to Kansas City's free ride 2 miles circular SC system that services a vibrant downtown isn't a fair gauge.

.

Vibrant!!!!!

https://youtu.be/9fmk0lZX5Lc

[kukblue1]

Man I hope when the convention center opens we can get more riders. Rode it at 5 to automobile alley from the park and then back to the thunder game at 6 and 5 of us on it both times. On a Friday night during a Thunder game. Right now it's not a good look when it keeps going bye empty all the time.