Streetcar

[stdennis]

I just had another idea... I know most people don't like park and rides but what if the parking is put inside on and off ramps?like the ones on 4th?

[betts]

Here's an article from Steve today:

Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars
Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system.

BY STEVE LACKMEYER

Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system. The city literally was built around a streetcar system from statehood through World War II. But the system was abandoned in the late 1940s, and for some the effort to bring it back started right then and there. Voters approved MAPS 3 funding for a streetcar system after being shown renderings portraying the cars going through Bricktown. Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars Research shows that serious planning for a reintroduction of rail-based streetcars took place in the 1980s and continued through the early 1990s. Voters were promised a streetcar system would be one of the city's nine Metropolitan Area Projects — but it came with a big “if” — and that “if” was federal funding.

A couple of years earlier, with veteran Mickey Edwards representing District 5, that funding probably would have been a slam dunk. But a rubber-check controversy ended his tenure, and then Mayor Ron Norick discovered that successor Ernest Istook had a strong dislike for rail-based passenger transit. The city was offered a substitute of rubber tire trolleys. When the city attempted to install tracks in Bricktown anyway (I saw the grooves cut into the bricks at Reno and Mickey Mantle Drive), they were ordered to halt work immediately or risk future funding.

Looking back, installation of such tracks downtown likely would have been premature. Deep Deuce was a blighted no man's land, and not the thriving downtown neighborhood it is today. And the tragic birth of downtown's top destination — the Oklahoma City National Memorial — had not occurred yet.



Read more: http://newsok.com/debate-continues-o...#ixzz1AEL0S2WI

[Urban Pioneer]

Just to follow Betts lead, here is the article last week that was in the Gazette about Pete White.

Jill Adler and Mark Gibbs spoke following Rick Cain's presentation and rebuffed some of the arguments that he was making.

Yesterday at council, I had a chance to also challenge some of his lines of thinking about what people voted for and why we couldn't do buses if we wanted to.

I was surprised to run into Nick Roberts (Spartan) who was also there to speak on the issue.



Bumper Cars

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1124889

Although he’s for public transit, one City Council member is railing against the method and cost of the fixed downtown streetcar concept.

One of the major projects of the approved MAPS 3 program came under fire by an Oklahoma City council member who said it was at odds with other city initiatives and something city leaders would end up regretting.

Around $130 million from the MAPS 3 fund is dedicated to the modern streetcar project, which will likely be on a fixed rail system downtown. Those involved with the project say it will hopefully eventually connect with a larger public rail system that is currently being studied.

At the Dec. 21 City Council meeting, city leaders were presented with possible routes for the downtown streetcar, as well as an intermodal hub, which is planned to serve several public transportation methods.

Around $10 million of MAPS 3 money is set aside to develop an intermodal hub, and the possible sites for the hub have been whittled down from 10 to three, said Rick Cain, public transportation director.

The MAPS 3 streetcar system is separate from the planned commuter rail service, which would likely extend to several surrounding communities such as Norman, Midwest City, Yukon and Edmond, Cain said.

The possible routes presented at the meeting came from the Alternatives Analysis Steering Committee, a group seeking ways to bring the area rail system to reality. The committee does not have a budget to implement the downtown rail project; official recommendations for the exact route will come from the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee, which will pass its recommendations on to the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board and eventually on to the City Council.

The MAPS 3 modern streetcar project plays a very important role in eventually implementing the larger rail system, Cain said, because the MAPS 3 funds going toward the streetcar might be considered local matching funds for public transit — a requirement to qualify for federal funding for the area rail system.

The downtown streetcar will not be cheap, however. Some estimates put the cost of laying the track and utility relocation at around $20 million per mile, with the city getting 5 or 6 miles of track out of its MAPS 3 funds.

Councilman Pete White questioned the wisdom of having a fixed-rail streetcar downtown, rather than a rubber-tire type streetcar.

White had voted to include the streetcar as part of the MAPS 3 initiative, but said he is beginning to regret that decision.

“As I see it going forward, and I see what the cost of it is going to be and how few people it’s going to serve and how much better that money could be spent on overall transportation things, I’m much less enchanted with it than I was,” White said.

Though the MAPS 3 subcommittee is working with the planners of Project 180, the $140 million redesign of downtown streetscapes, to coordinate efforts and possibly save money on utility relocation, a “tremendous amount of loss” and wasted money are possible, White said, and initiatives to improve walkability downtown are also at odds with the streetcar.

“I think it’s going to be so expensive.

We’re spending all this money downtown on walkability, and yet we’re concentrating this thing in an area where we want people to walk. I think we can do better,” White said. “It’s at counter purpose with 180. It’s at counter purpose with walkability. It’s at counter purpose that we ought to be doing things sustainable financially.”

Mark Gibbs, a member of the MAPS 3 transit subcommittee, addressed the council and defended the streetcar project, citing the project’s high poll numbers and the need for an expanded public transpor tation system.

“It’s a project I firmly believe in,” Gibbs said. “I see the streetcar and the hub and the commuter rail as very much intertwined. The streetcar will introduce people in Oklahoma City to mass transit.”

People who would otherwise not use public transit would be more likely to ride the streetcar, Gibbs said, and the fixed nature of the streetcar would provide predictability and reliability. Though the streetcar has a high initial cost, it would have an extremely lower operating cost than other forms of public transportation, he said.

“The streetcar is the first component in substantially improving transit in the city and the metro area,” Gibbs said.

Jill Adler, another subcommittee member, also defended the project, saying that it would allow people to get around downtown easier, and, with the creation of the hub, encourage people to use public transportation more often.

“People in Oklahoma used to driving cars are going to have difficulty with this concept of ‘let’s come into the hub and walk everywhere there is to walk downtown,’” Adler said. “I think one of the things the streetcar can do is open the concept of mass transit to people who would never consider using it. I think if you get people from Oklahoma City to ride the streetcar, stop at the hub where buses are going, all of a sudden it opens up the whole concept of ‘I don’t have to use my car.’” White responded that he was not opposed to downtown public transportation, just the method and cost of the streetcar.

“I’m not against transportation downtown; I’m against $20 million a mile for transportation that can’t be changed,” White said. “We have people in this town who can’t get to work because they can’t afford it because we don’t have an extensive enough bus route. And yet we’re willing to sink $20 million a mile to get you from Robinson to Walker.”

Councilman J. Brian Walters also took issue with the idea of the government encouraging the use of public transportation.

“Our cars are an extension of our freedom … It’s not our job to convince people to get out of their cars and take away that freedom,” Walters said.

Mayor Mick Cornett responded. “Yeah, but Brian, government subsidizes the streets and the fuel that goes into your car, so it is subsidizing your transportation,” Cornett said.

Rick Cain's Power Point Presentation at council, courtesy of a link on the Gazette's website-

http://uploads.ftp-wehaa.com/okc/MAPS_HUB_Update_CC.pdf

[Urban Pioneer]

For the record, this was also in the Gazette about Mark Gibbs. I think this made for a surreal meeting for him and Jill. lol

I know the last two council meetings have been somewhat surreal for us volunteers. Ah, the public process.



Registering a complaint

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1124899

The Oklahoma City Council may not have expected the third degree or Spanish Inquisition when it opened the floor to let citizens speak at its regular Dec. 21 meeting.

But then again, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

After a presentation over the proposed routes and hub location for Oklahoma City’s planned streetcar system, several City Council members had questions and comments on the issue. One of those who addressed the City Council on the matter was Mark Gibbs, a board member on the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee and secretary of the board for Urban Neighbors, the downtown neighborhood association.

Gibbs, who has addressed the council in the past because of his role on the MAPS 3 subcommittee, speaks with a British accent.

The accent was too much to bear for one member of the audience, Oklahoma City resident and former candidate for county commissioner Fannie Bates, who decided to first address the obvious British invasion when the time came to allow citizens to address the council.

“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”

Bates went on to say that it was not right to charge non-Greater Oklahoma City Chamber members $75 to attend the annual State of the City event, and that many Chamber businessmen who will attend the event don’t live in Oklahoma City, but during the day run payday loan services, bars, liquor stores and “arcades that teach our kids how to kill cops and steal cars” before going home to Nichols Hills and Edmond at night.

“We’ve got problems in Oklahoma City,” Bates said. “Real problems that these people with an English accent don’t know anything about.”

Perhaps Bates is right. The problems of British railways have been well documented in Monty Python’s “Dead Parrot Sketch,” with people headed toward pet shops in Bolton, and then inexplicably winding up in Ipswitch.

[TheTravellers]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

[betts]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

But there are people like Fanny Bates all over the country, not just in Oklahoma. If you don't understand that, you haven't gotten out much. I used to go to City Council meetings in Denver from time to time and there was plenty of hilarity there as well. Oklahoma does not have a monopoly on eccentricity.

[Architect2010]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

[kevinpate]

Apparently, there are lots of things to dislike in OKC. maybe those who have many such dislikes ought to form a club and get together for a fret and froth party one Wednesday eve a month, maybe two even.

[Kerry]

“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”

So who is Fannie Bates? She is a left wing nut job (not your typical Oklahoman)

http://fanniebates.wordpress.com/200...-commissioner/

Fannie Bates, a local teacher and activist, has entered the race to become the County Commissioner for Oklahoma County District I.

Bates received her B.S. from OU in 1971 and her M.P.H. from OUHSC in 2001.

She was one of the complainants who successfully attacked TABOR in the Oklahoma Supreme Court.

Bates was one of eleven citizens who successfully attacked the English Only Initiative Petition in 2001.

...

6. Supporting mass transit within Oklahoma County – including utilization of existing tracks

Wow -talk about hypocrisy

[Rover]

So who is Fannie Bates? She is a left wing nut job (not your typical Oklahoman)

Talk about stereotyping.

It actually sounds more like the conservative right wingers who think everyone not like them should be banned from the country. No more immigrants. No more people who are different. Sheesh.

[Kerry]

Talk about stereotyping.

It actually sounds more like the conservative right wingers who think everyone not like them should be banned from the country. No more immigrants. No more people who are different. Sheesh.

You didn't read the link I attached did you. The irony is Travellers is a left-winger that is referencing a fellow left-winger as proof Oklahoma is full of crazy right-wingers.

[betts]

Maybe we should avoid characterizing people as one wing or the other. There are nuts on both sides of the spectrum, and reasonable conservatives and liberals. Reasonable people of both schools of thought care about what's best for the city and country, even if their methods aren't always the same.

[Kerry]

One of the areas where I have refined my thought process is on the downtown loop/circulator. While I can live with the coupling idea (although I really don't like it either) I am not in favor of a loop that circulates around downtown. The track need to reach out into the residential areas instead of wasting track making circles downtown.

[betts]

There are significant distances involved in getting places downtown. For those who haven't done it, I would suggest walking from Deep Deuce to the Art Museum, from the Iguana Grill to the Ford Center or from City Hall to Midtown. I am accustomed to walking and I've been struck by how long a casual stroll from place to place actually takes. I think one can argue that both circling downtown, which is the place people from north, south, east and west congregate, is a reasonable idea, as well as attempting to serve residential areas. While reaching residential areas is desirable, it may be difficult to choose one over all others, and there's no way to reach more than one direction. In the ideal world, we'd have enough money to circle downtown as well as go north, south, east and west. But there will probably need to be a long-range plan and the initial route needs to be devised so that it can logically be extended.

Or, and perhaps simultaneously, we need to work on better bus service to connect with the intial streetcar route.

[Kerry]

Betts here is why I don't like a circulator. If there is a hub (where ever it might be) there will be street cars headed east, west, north, and south from it. If you are going from one part of downtown to another all you need to do is change trains at the hub. Here is the route map of the Oslo system. Their downtown is covered with tracks but no single train goes on all of them.

http://trafikanten.no/Global/linjeka...2010-12Web.pdf

[betts]

Kerry, that looks like the London tube map. How many miles does that system cover? It looks like you've got multiple circulators involving the purple, orange, green and red lines, although it's difficult to know the distances involved so I'm just guessing. And have you ever been on that system to see how intuitive it is for the non-resident? Also, do you know which lines were first? Any idea if the creators and residents love it or if there are things they would change?

A circulator can stop at the hub too, and it can be part of a larger system that extends out further if it is well-planned.

[okclee]

How far will people walk in order to catch a ride?

[TheTravellers]

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

Nope, I meet and have seen lots of Fannie Bates-type people here. I work with quite a few I (and others) would characterize as rednecks, I hear from a lot of other people about creationism, sharia, "keep the tax cuts, they do no harm and are good for the economy", etc. All the (IMO) stupid stuff that I'm just amazed that people still believe and bring into political discourse and decision-making and voting. I get out plenty, I've lived plenty, and yes, crazy/stupid people are everywhere, but I just seem to run across a lot more here and they seem to be taken more seriously here. That's what's discouraging to me.

Kerry - please explain to me why I'm a left-winger? What's the criteria for being one? I have never identified myself as such and don't really want to be associated with Fannie Bates in any way.

This part of the discussion should really be moved, but I'll let the mods deal with that if they care to.

[TheTravellers]

One of the areas where I have refined my thought process is on the downtown loop/circulator. While I can live with the coupling idea (although I really don't like it either) I am not in favor of a loop that circulates around downtown. The track need to reach out into the residential areas instead of wasting track making circles downtown.

Why can't there be both a loop around downtown *and* spurs going out further? Or maybe, as betts says, bus connections. But we better have a really good fare-collection system that makes transfers transparent and as easy as sliding a card through a reader. We should have that regardless - make the streetcar fare-collection (assuming there is one) seamlessly interact with the bus fare-collection system.

[Platemaker]

Not that I'm a fan of a circulator or couplets necessarily... but this is right at 6 miles... makes use of the the new boulevard... and has two way traffic in the Santa Fe (mostly likely spot for the hub) area... and you get Bricktown along Oklahoma Ave... I think it's pretty much genius.. lol.

[betts]

Why can't there be both a loop around downtown *and* spurs going out further? - make the streetcar fare-collection (assuming there is one) seamlessly interact with the bus fare-collection system.

I have to agree with both of these. When the day comes that we have more than one type of mass transit in Oklahoma City, we need a mass transit card that works for all modalities, IMO.

We will need day and monthly passes, to make transit simply.

[Platemaker]

It also interfaces with both the Greyhound Station and the current bus transfer station.... and most importantly... it's simple.

[shane453]

I've ridden the Oslo system that Kerry is researching, it's quite good but obviously way more extensive than 6 miles. Its layout is like a large light rail network. Oslo is also served by a subway loop around the city (T-bane) that interfaces with buses and streetcars at multiple points.

[Urban Pioneer]

Betts here is why I don't like a circulator. If there is a hub (where ever it might be) there will be street cars headed east, west, north, and south from it. If you are going from one part of downtown to another all you need to do is change trains at the hub. Here is the route map of the Oslo system. Their downtown is covered with tracks but no single train goes on all of them.

http://trafikanten.no/Global/linjeka...2010-12Web.pdf

This is pretty cool and "meaningful." The streetcar system has always been in my mind, something that is more than a "tourist ride." Although, they will greatly help support the system.

[Platemaker]

Even more so than tourists... did you know that all the hotels downtown run 85%+ occupancy Monday through Thursday... almost every week. the great majority of these are business travelers that come downtown 2 or more times per month... I can see these individuals being a a major part of the initial ridership.