Streetcar

[Kerry]

For those that interested, and have the time, check out the streetcar system in Oslo, Norway. They have an extensive downtown circulator with branches that go out to the city at large (kind of like spokes on a wheel). I started mapping it in Google Earth but it has many more miles of track than I was expecting so it is taking a while.

[Urban Pioneer]

For those that interested, and have the time, check out the streetcar system in Oslo, Norway. They have an extensive downtown circulator with branches that go out to the city at large (kind of like spokes on a wheel). I started mapping it in Google Earth but it has many more miles of track than I was expecting so it is taking a while.

When you are able to assemble something on this, I would be very interested. I don't think that any of us have studier Norway yet. Don't feel obligated, but if you have some pictures and maps, that would be cool.

[Spartan]

Platemaker, I don't think downtown can be served with just a Broadway/Robinson transit mall. I think you have to pair it with something else, and I think like it or not, we need to focus the 6 miles on something more comprehensive that serves more of downtown. There is not the kind of density needed to start supporting streetcar to larger portions of the city overall. You have to start by transforming one square mile into a streetcar district. Once you've done that, move on to more ambitious goals.

It's also very important that the first phase is a complete system on its own, because it will have to stand alone for the time being until more funding is found. Initial success will also be pivotal to expanding the system, winning over the public, gaining public trust, and gaining confidence from funding sources at the local, state, and federal level--we have to rely on other funding sources for expansion, period. They will be judging based on the first phase, so it is important that the first phase not be incomplete and that it take people everywhere they could want to go within downtown, first. It must be whole; the first phase can not be an incomplete downtown system matched with an incomplete north side system because that will fail.

It might also be easier if we went back to the basics, with the clear understanding that there should be a E/W spine and a N/S spine. Robinson-Broadway is clearly our N/S spine, and that's a winner, we all agree on that--but we can't leave out the E/W spine, and it needs to be something that can thread together the mixed-use developments forming vibrant areas in Bricktown, Deep Deuce, and the Arts District. Sheridan works for that, but you can only go one way down Sheridan due to some underground utilities on one side. Reno goes nowhere near Deep Deuce, so that's not a good pair imo but the closest potential pair in Deep Deuce is NE 2nd Street. Would Sheridan-2nd/Kerr be a good couplet for an E/W spine?

[Platemaker]

I just feel like a Broadway/Sheridan spine is already walkable to the already walkable districts in our already compact downtown... If we try connecting every 'district' we've created we are just making a tourist trolley going in circles. I think we have to open the streetcar to 'regular' residents and not just those that can afford to live downtown.

[Spartan]

I just feel like a Broadway/Sheridan spine is already walkable to the already walkable districts in our already compact downtown... If we try connecting every 'district' we've created we are just making a tourist trolley going in circles. I think we have to open the streetcar to 'regular' residents and not just those that can afford to live downtown.

I'm not sure it will be a tourist trolley unless someone comes along who starts prioritizing the Ballpark, the memorial, bar and the convention center and literally builds a system around that. I think downtown already has a lot of regular residents, and in order for there to be a resurgence in urban living in OKC, it has to first win downtown over.

The problem with going north is Heritage Hills and Mesta Park aren't very dense. If you dropped someone from an older, eastern city in the middle of those neighborhoods the first impression they'd have is of being in a very nice suburb. I think there is some serious potential for turning 23rd into a transit corridor and doing a few neighborhood loops, such as a Classen/Western couplet and finding a couplet through the Plaza/Gatewood/Classen-Ten-Penn/OCU area (and the Plaza and Western couplets could easily be a self-functioning loop that connects to the entire system as well).

And I'd say not to forget about the south side of the city. You're going to have to balance the streetcar investment to not leave the southside out or else voters will be put off, and won't think all citizens are being served fairly.

[ljbab728]

And I'd say not to forget about the south side of the city. You're going to have to balance the streetcar investment to not leave the southside out or else voters will be put off, and won't think all citizens are being served fairly.

Agreed, Spartan. The Capitol Hill area, as a minimum, needs to be considered in the long range streetcar planning.

[Spartan]

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

[ljbab728]

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

And I think the inner city southside residents are probably more open to using forms of mass transit than those of the north side.

[betts]

Capitol Hill needs to be in the medium-range. If you go to Paseo, you better go to Capitol Hill before you go to Plaza as well. I'd say get to Stockyards City and some of the areas in between too--the southside is the densest part of the city, so it shouldn't be too hard to get at least a 40/60 balance of streetcar north and south (excluding areas between Reno and 10th).

That's one of the appeals of Robinson as part of the route, IMO: you have direct access to Capitol Hill. And I agree that extensions to both the south and north need to be considered equally when the time comes.

[Rover]

I think preferences should be given to areas where the local businessmen/developers are already investing to make better. For instance, through Asian district and Paseo vs. Capital Hill where there has been very little private investment, it seems.

[Spartan]

Rover, You should take another look at Capitol Hill, while I would agree some of the businesses aren't very white bread-friendly, the district is increasingly becoming more diverse in its businesses, and there are a few community groups doing a lot of clean-up there. Sometime this week you should go and try the chicken fried steak at the Grill on the Hill, which is popular with the Gazette.

[Rover]

Rover, You should take another look at Capitol Hill, while I would agree some of the businesses aren't very white bread-friendly, the district is increasingly becoming more diverse in its businesses, and there are a few community groups doing a lot of clean-up there. Sometime this week you should go and try the chicken fried steak at the Grill on the Hill, which is popular with the Gazette.

Just drove through there 2 days ago on my way to a great Mexican food store on 29th as I do occasionally. While I think it is diverse, I just don't see evidence of the area businessmen investing in improving the area as much as I see in the Asian district or Paseo or the Plaza area. The Capital Hill business area has HUGE potential. It has the best view of downtown and now the core to shore park. It has a great legacy. It has a pod of great old buildings that could be a great environment if maintained and improved. And it has an exciting cultural base to create a wonderful special environment. Yet it is poorly maintained and there seems to be no vision or leadership there. In the very least, there doesn't seem to be investment form those with the most to gain who live, work and do business there. If they believed in their own future then maybe the rest of the city would invest in them too. Just my opinion based on observation.

By the way, I don't think "white bread" friendly is an appropriate description and not very veiled. The reason for the comments I made are based on maintenance and improvement issues, not cultural or racial. I have been going there and in the area for decades to eat, visit and do business. One of my favorite Aunt and Uncle even had a store there at one time. But it is run-down now and has stayed that way. A little investment, even if it is elbow grease, goes a long way.

[Spartan]

By the way, I don't think "white bread" friendly is an appropriate description and not very veiled. The reason for the comments I made are based on maintenance and improvement issues, not cultural or racial. I have been going there and in the area for decades to eat, visit and do business. One of my favorite Aunt and Uncle even had a store there at one time. But it is run-down now and has stayed that way. A little investment, even if it is elbow grease, goes a long way.

Well, I understand if you'd be uncomfortable agreeing to that phrase, but I have no problem. I think that's definitely what is at play, and I definitely admit I think about it in some degree. I make no bones about being really familiar with Capitol Hill, so I don't feel squirmy characterizing it that way. I definitely prefer ethnic restaurants that meet suburban standards of cleanliness, and always shiny new tables, chairs, etc. Some of the businesses just aren't maintained as pristine, which is more along how you'd prefer to put it.

But people who are more keen on Mexican food than I am might be more willing to experience a real local choice that's more authentic. But it's important for those to coexist with restaurants next door that have the nicer sheen and less authentic food for people looking for that. When it comes to food I'm more keen on like Italian, I have no problem going to a kind of sloppy place in Little Italy or somewhere like that, or with Thai food.

But I am very big on the Grill on the Hill and a couple of other places in there.

[SkyWestOKC]

Okay....for a starter system (red) and possible future extensions MAPS4? (green). Connects mostly all of downtown: the CBD, Deep Deuce, Bricktown (via either deep deuce or EK Gaylord), Automobile Alley, and touches the Arts District. With a grand total of 4.59 miles of track. (with .44 miles of two-way track (.22 miles each way)). Uses the loop system which I know have changed my position on and think is the way to go. As long as the loop is only separated by a block or two from each direction.
You may have to click on it to get a better view.

The streetcars on the E/W loop would not use the Northbound tracks except to get to Robert S. Kerr from Park Ave. or to get to Dean A. McGee from Robert. S. Kerr. The N/S streetcars would always stay on the N/S tracks. The only common tracks for both loops (spines) would be Broadway between Park Ave. and 3rd St./Dean A. McGee.

Sample itineraries.

* Deep Deuce resident at Block 42 wanting to go to a Thunder game at the Ford Ce....OKC Arena. Get on the westbound in Deep Deuce to the Robinson Ave stop.(west on 4th, south on Oklahoma, west on Robert S. Kerr, north on Broadway and west on Dean A. McGee to the Robinson Ave stop.). At the Robison Ave. stop and wait for the southbound at Robinson. Take the Robinson southbound to the Cox Center/OKC Arena stop. (South on Robinson Ave. and then east on Reno to the OKC Arena/Cox Center stop).

*Devon employee going to Hideaway Pizza in AA for lunch. Board at the Park/Harvey stop and join the eastbound to the Broadway stop. Board the northbound at Park Ave. and Broadway and take north to AA.

Obviously there are more possibilities, but this seems to cover the most ground with a relatively efficient system.

I don't like the systems shown that go all the way up and connect neighborhoods right away. We need to get a nucleus in downtown working before we start bringing in people from neighborhoods further away. Once we can move people in downtown efficiently, it will be more attractive to connect more neighborhoods (and people) into the system. With the idea of connecting neighborhoods right away, how are they going to get around in downtown if all the money was spent on track to get them downtown, and not being able to move them around downtown?

[Popsy]

skywest

I approve your route, by far, over anything else I have seen, but still feel it needs to go into Bricktown.

[stdennis]

I just had another idea... I know most people don't like park and rides but what if the parking is put inside on and off ramps?like the ones on 4th?

[stdennis]

If you are gonna make it so you have to change trains why not a system like this? The dark blue are only single track but would be expandable to double down the line especially if they get a phase 2 attached to them or a small loop if better. This would cover most of the core area and be easily expandable.




here is an idea of future expansions including double line down Lincoln. and could even be expanded to the airport if need be ( i would prefer commuter rail at that point though with a stop at the last point of the street car and at the central hub allowing you to get on the street car at two points)

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UT...1fdb9&t=h&z=13

[betts]

Here's an article from Steve today:

Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars
Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system.

BY STEVE LACKMEYER

Some old nagging questions are popping up again as the city takes its second try at creating a downtown streetcar system. The city literally was built around a streetcar system from statehood through World War II. But the system was abandoned in the late 1940s, and for some the effort to bring it back started right then and there. Voters approved MAPS 3 funding for a streetcar system after being shown renderings portraying the cars going through Bricktown. Debate continues over Oklahoma City streetcars Research shows that serious planning for a reintroduction of rail-based streetcars took place in the 1980s and continued through the early 1990s. Voters were promised a streetcar system would be one of the city's nine Metropolitan Area Projects — but it came with a big “if” — and that “if” was federal funding.

A couple of years earlier, with veteran Mickey Edwards representing District 5, that funding probably would have been a slam dunk. But a rubber-check controversy ended his tenure, and then Mayor Ron Norick discovered that successor Ernest Istook had a strong dislike for rail-based passenger transit. The city was offered a substitute of rubber tire trolleys. When the city attempted to install tracks in Bricktown anyway (I saw the grooves cut into the bricks at Reno and Mickey Mantle Drive), they were ordered to halt work immediately or risk future funding.

Looking back, installation of such tracks downtown likely would have been premature. Deep Deuce was a blighted no man's land, and not the thriving downtown neighborhood it is today. And the tragic birth of downtown's top destination — the Oklahoma City National Memorial — had not occurred yet.



Read more: http://newsok.com/debate-continues-o...#ixzz1AEL0S2WI

[Urban Pioneer]

Just to follow Betts lead, here is the article last week that was in the Gazette about Pete White.

Jill Adler and Mark Gibbs spoke following Rick Cain's presentation and rebuffed some of the arguments that he was making.

Yesterday at council, I had a chance to also challenge some of his lines of thinking about what people voted for and why we couldn't do buses if we wanted to.

I was surprised to run into Nick Roberts (Spartan) who was also there to speak on the issue.



Bumper Cars

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1124889

Although he’s for public transit, one City Council member is railing against the method and cost of the fixed downtown streetcar concept.

One of the major projects of the approved MAPS 3 program came under fire by an Oklahoma City council member who said it was at odds with other city initiatives and something city leaders would end up regretting.

Around $130 million from the MAPS 3 fund is dedicated to the modern streetcar project, which will likely be on a fixed rail system downtown. Those involved with the project say it will hopefully eventually connect with a larger public rail system that is currently being studied.

At the Dec. 21 City Council meeting, city leaders were presented with possible routes for the downtown streetcar, as well as an intermodal hub, which is planned to serve several public transportation methods.

Around $10 million of MAPS 3 money is set aside to develop an intermodal hub, and the possible sites for the hub have been whittled down from 10 to three, said Rick Cain, public transportation director.

The MAPS 3 streetcar system is separate from the planned commuter rail service, which would likely extend to several surrounding communities such as Norman, Midwest City, Yukon and Edmond, Cain said.

The possible routes presented at the meeting came from the Alternatives Analysis Steering Committee, a group seeking ways to bring the area rail system to reality. The committee does not have a budget to implement the downtown rail project; official recommendations for the exact route will come from the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee, which will pass its recommendations on to the MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board and eventually on to the City Council.

The MAPS 3 modern streetcar project plays a very important role in eventually implementing the larger rail system, Cain said, because the MAPS 3 funds going toward the streetcar might be considered local matching funds for public transit — a requirement to qualify for federal funding for the area rail system.

The downtown streetcar will not be cheap, however. Some estimates put the cost of laying the track and utility relocation at around $20 million per mile, with the city getting 5 or 6 miles of track out of its MAPS 3 funds.

Councilman Pete White questioned the wisdom of having a fixed-rail streetcar downtown, rather than a rubber-tire type streetcar.

White had voted to include the streetcar as part of the MAPS 3 initiative, but said he is beginning to regret that decision.

“As I see it going forward, and I see what the cost of it is going to be and how few people it’s going to serve and how much better that money could be spent on overall transportation things, I’m much less enchanted with it than I was,” White said.

Though the MAPS 3 subcommittee is working with the planners of Project 180, the $140 million redesign of downtown streetscapes, to coordinate efforts and possibly save money on utility relocation, a “tremendous amount of loss” and wasted money are possible, White said, and initiatives to improve walkability downtown are also at odds with the streetcar.

“I think it’s going to be so expensive.

We’re spending all this money downtown on walkability, and yet we’re concentrating this thing in an area where we want people to walk. I think we can do better,” White said. “It’s at counter purpose with 180. It’s at counter purpose with walkability. It’s at counter purpose that we ought to be doing things sustainable financially.”

Mark Gibbs, a member of the MAPS 3 transit subcommittee, addressed the council and defended the streetcar project, citing the project’s high poll numbers and the need for an expanded public transpor tation system.

“It’s a project I firmly believe in,” Gibbs said. “I see the streetcar and the hub and the commuter rail as very much intertwined. The streetcar will introduce people in Oklahoma City to mass transit.”

People who would otherwise not use public transit would be more likely to ride the streetcar, Gibbs said, and the fixed nature of the streetcar would provide predictability and reliability. Though the streetcar has a high initial cost, it would have an extremely lower operating cost than other forms of public transportation, he said.

“The streetcar is the first component in substantially improving transit in the city and the metro area,” Gibbs said.

Jill Adler, another subcommittee member, also defended the project, saying that it would allow people to get around downtown easier, and, with the creation of the hub, encourage people to use public transportation more often.

“People in Oklahoma used to driving cars are going to have difficulty with this concept of ‘let’s come into the hub and walk everywhere there is to walk downtown,’” Adler said. “I think one of the things the streetcar can do is open the concept of mass transit to people who would never consider using it. I think if you get people from Oklahoma City to ride the streetcar, stop at the hub where buses are going, all of a sudden it opens up the whole concept of ‘I don’t have to use my car.’” White responded that he was not opposed to downtown public transportation, just the method and cost of the streetcar.

“I’m not against transportation downtown; I’m against $20 million a mile for transportation that can’t be changed,” White said. “We have people in this town who can’t get to work because they can’t afford it because we don’t have an extensive enough bus route. And yet we’re willing to sink $20 million a mile to get you from Robinson to Walker.”

Councilman J. Brian Walters also took issue with the idea of the government encouraging the use of public transportation.

“Our cars are an extension of our freedom … It’s not our job to convince people to get out of their cars and take away that freedom,” Walters said.

Mayor Mick Cornett responded. “Yeah, but Brian, government subsidizes the streets and the fuel that goes into your car, so it is subsidizing your transportation,” Cornett said.

Rick Cain's Power Point Presentation at council, courtesy of a link on the Gazette's website-

http://uploads.ftp-wehaa.com/okc/MAPS_HUB_Update_CC.pdf

[Urban Pioneer]

For the record, this was also in the Gazette about Mark Gibbs. I think this made for a surreal meeting for him and Jill. lol

I know the last two council meetings have been somewhat surreal for us volunteers. Ah, the public process.



Registering a complaint

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1124899

The Oklahoma City Council may not have expected the third degree or Spanish Inquisition when it opened the floor to let citizens speak at its regular Dec. 21 meeting.

But then again, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

After a presentation over the proposed routes and hub location for Oklahoma City’s planned streetcar system, several City Council members had questions and comments on the issue. One of those who addressed the City Council on the matter was Mark Gibbs, a board member on the MAPS 3 Modern Streetcar Subcommittee and secretary of the board for Urban Neighbors, the downtown neighborhood association.

Gibbs, who has addressed the council in the past because of his role on the MAPS 3 subcommittee, speaks with a British accent.

The accent was too much to bear for one member of the audience, Oklahoma City resident and former candidate for county commissioner Fannie Bates, who decided to first address the obvious British invasion when the time came to allow citizens to address the council.

“Before I say what I got up here to say, I’d like to say that I’m really tired of coming to these meetings and seeing somebody with an English accent or an Australian accent that knows nothing about our culture getting up here and telling us what they think we ought to do,” Bates told the council. “They don’t know anything about our history. They just sound silly. I hope you don’t think that because someone has an English accent that they know more than us Okies do.”

Bates went on to say that it was not right to charge non-Greater Oklahoma City Chamber members $75 to attend the annual State of the City event, and that many Chamber businessmen who will attend the event don’t live in Oklahoma City, but during the day run payday loan services, bars, liquor stores and “arcades that teach our kids how to kill cops and steal cars” before going home to Nichols Hills and Edmond at night.

“We’ve got problems in Oklahoma City,” Bates said. “Real problems that these people with an English accent don’t know anything about.”

Perhaps Bates is right. The problems of British railways have been well documented in Monty Python’s “Dead Parrot Sketch,” with people headed toward pet shops in Bolton, and then inexplicably winding up in Ipswitch.

[TheTravellers]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

[betts]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

But there are people like Fanny Bates all over the country, not just in Oklahoma. If you don't understand that, you haven't gotten out much. I used to go to City Council meetings in Denver from time to time and there was plenty of hilarity there as well. Oklahoma does not have a monopoly on eccentricity.

[Architect2010]

And people wonder why I think OK is still kind of backwards - thank you, Fannie Bates, for giving me some supporting evidence.

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

[TheTravellers]

So one single person, that was at a City Council Meeting mind you, gives you enough evidence to be able to paint a wide generalization over an entire populace; one person that most people in OKC could never relate to. There's weird people in every city, get over it.

Nope, I meet and have seen lots of Fannie Bates-type people here. I work with quite a few I (and others) would characterize as rednecks, I hear from a lot of other people about creationism, sharia, "keep the tax cuts, they do no harm and are good for the economy", etc. All the (IMO) stupid stuff that I'm just amazed that people still believe and bring into political discourse and decision-making and voting. I get out plenty, I've lived plenty, and yes, crazy/stupid people are everywhere, but I just seem to run across a lot more here and they seem to be taken more seriously here. That's what's discouraging to me.

Kerry - please explain to me why I'm a left-winger? What's the criteria for being one? I have never identified myself as such and don't really want to be associated with Fannie Bates in any way.

This part of the discussion should really be moved, but I'll let the mods deal with that if they care to.

[ljbab728]

Nope, I meet and have seen lots of Fannie Bates-type people here. I work with quite a few I (and others) would characterize as rednecks, I hear from a lot of other people about creationism, sharia, "keep the tax cuts, they do no harm and are good for the economy", etc. All the (IMO) stupid stuff that I'm just amazed that people still believe and bring into political discourse and decision-making and voting. I get out plenty, I've lived plenty, and yes, crazy/stupid people are everywhere, but I just seem to run across a lot more here and they seem to be taken more seriously here. That's what's discouraging to me.

Travellers, the only one who seems to take people like that more seriously here is you. I don't see that sentiment too much from anyone else. There certainly are far right-wingers who post here but don't take that to mean they are in the majority here or will have any undue influence and yes you are straying into topics that should be in the politcal forum.