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Thread: Streetcar

  1. #101

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.

    Sorry, credit where credit is due, it was Spartans comment I was commenting on....

  2. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.
    It would be nice, but it's pretty out of the way. If we do spokes, I'd say it's more likely than if it's a loop.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  3. #103

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Sounds like a great "phase 2" consideration.

  4. #104

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

  5. #105

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).
    I have been thinking along the same lines.

  6. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

    a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

    or

    b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


    I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  7. #107

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.

  8. #108

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Hmmm. I probably am biased towards Broadway, because I like it so much better as a street. But also, the concept of a "broad way" implies it is the most important street in a city or town. To me, it's more central, as it's closer to Bricktown, the Ford Center, etc, but again, that's my personal bias. Hudson does have much vaster expanses of open land, but what could we expect to be built along it? Would it have as much visual appeal?

  9. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Broadway vs. Walker/Hudson is a tough question. Broadway already has businesses and it is prime to be a main retail street in the future. Do we reward those businesses by giving them a streetcar connection, or do we encourage more businesses and developments by putting the streetcar in an area with vacant lots.

    If we used Hudson on the west and Oklahoma Ave on the east, then Automobile Alley would be within 3 blocks to the west and 2 blocks to the east of streetcar connection. Is that okay? How far will people walk from a streetcar stop?

    Here is a graphic that Blair Humphreys did showing walk times, to give us an idea of how far people can walk to/from streetcar lines.



    And here is an aerial image showing just how much infill potential there is in our downtown/Midtown areas. Imagine empty lots and parking lots filling with dense, transit-oriented development as a result of having a streetcar connection. Also note that almost every major building in this frame has already been renovated or is currently being renovated to retail or loft residences.



    Quote Originally Posted by okclee View Post
    If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.
    Yeah, I thought it sounded like a lot, and if it existed today it'd be America's biggest modern streetcar system, but imagine if we had 10 miles... But hey, I'm just happy it's really happening at all! Wow!

  10. #110

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by EBAH View Post
    I'm glad you mentioned that UrbanPioneer, I've wondered if the city takes those medians in to account when planning these routes. I mean, these neighborhoods were originally designed around an inner city street car system. One of the old routes dead ends about 2 houses down from me, and I can say, it really makes me sad to think about how awesome the neighborhood would be if it were still there. I would LOVE too see some of those medians torn out and returned to their original use, who knows, they might even be pre-reinforced to handle the weight of the cars. Does anyone know if the original transit layout will have any effect on the new one?
    Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.

  11. #111

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    After looking at the downtown map and considering "who is who", Sheridan will definitely have the east / west line going from Lincoln to Classen.

    That stretch is 1.5 miles, now we are down to 4 miles left.

    The north / south line needs to be? _____ (This is the question remaining.)

  12. #112

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I think that there are a lot of great ideas going around here. I loved EBAH's account of how much he/she would appreciate actually bringing the streetcar back to the neighborhoods it once traveled through. I can also appreciate the perspective that we SHOULD have a stop at OCU Law, the Boathouses, etc.. it should go through Bricktown, Devon should have a stop, etc etc..

    So many good ideas.

    Let's focus on an organic system that covers downtown. Just downtown. Nothing else. If it stops through Bricktown and past Devon and creates some really cool opportunities along Automobile Alley, that's great. But we just need a starter system with this 6 miles. No doubt that we have a big big downtown area to cover, including a lot of areas we never would have considered downtown a few years ago. Let's just cover as much and try and have an organic system approach with this first step.

    It's good that we have so many good ideas. Let's also make plans for a Phase 2 that can include a second loop that goes further out, to Classen and down to the Boathouses, and maybe the State Capitol.. but unfortunately those things are undoubtedly located too far out from the center of the action for us to include in the 6 mile segment.

    But by all means, let's make plans to include these things with street car further down the road..

  13. #113

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Does anyone know how the other cities (Portland, Memphis, Little Rock, Seattle) fund their streetcar system?

  14. #114

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I have just sort of assumed it should go up Broadway and head west at 10th and get on walker there or head NW along Plaza Court.
    However, there are some things to ponder about a Walker line. Broadway is fairly car friendly and its a busier road while Walker would seem like more of the "neighborhood" line, going straight to midtown, our best hope for a dense, urban, and walkable place to live. Also meaning more (re)investment oppurtunities.

  15. #115

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

    It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?

    Does this project offer an opportunity for a more efficient streetcar connection to Midtown?

  16. #116

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).
    Do we have to pick. They would both be great.

    Broadway to 23rd would be cool if it turned on 23rd and went West.

    It would obviously be great to see the land along Walker fill in, though, linking downtown to Midtown.

  17. #117

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by rcjunkie View Post
    Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.
    that's just one of the dead ends.

    There's another one all the way West at 19th and Meridian. It's amazing how far it went at one time.

  18. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

    It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?
    I didn't know anything about this. Got a map?
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  19. #119

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I think we need to start making a list of the places we want to go. Forget about places it "needs" to connect, let's think about who we are and where we would take a streetcar. This will only work if people actually want to use it. I think we get a little ahead of ourselves trying to connect it to everybody, without determining if it takes people where they want to go.

    I'm imagining using it at lunch. There are times when I'd like to go into Bricktown to eat, but I get out of court late, and I'd have to drive over there and park to get back on time, and sometimes I just don't want to do that. So I'd like a stop that ran from the courthouse to Bricktown. Something that would go by Abuelos, put me a short hop from Zio's, and run on down to Crabtown. Something where I'd be within a two minute walk of the nicer places to eat once I got off the streetcar. It would also be nice if I could take it from Bricktown restaurants to the Ford Center. I also would like to be able to take the streetcar up to McNellie's after work. Hit those areas and I'm happy.

  20. #120

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by okclee View Post
    I have been thinking along the same lines.
    No pun intended, right?

  21. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by hoyasooner View Post
    Okay, I'm excited that this is all coming to pass. I can barely believe that OKC is moving ahead with this. It's all sort of surreal.

    That said, I have a few questions. I'm sure they're easy to answer, but I just don't know how some of this will work at this point.

    First batch:
    On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
    Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
    If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
    How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
    Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?

    Second:
    With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
    How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
    These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
    What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
    How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?

    Just curious on a lot of this stuff. Urban Pioneer?
    I can try to answer your questions. We have streetcars up here in Tacoma and Seattle got a streetcar and a LRT (light rail transit) line this year. Nearby Vancouver Canada also has streetcar and a very extensive subway (3rd rail). You all already know Portland has streetcar in downtown and pretty extensive LRT.

    1) up here, the streetcar does not turn around. There is a driver seat on both ends, so - when the streetcar gets to the terminus, the driver just goes to the 'back' and starts driving the other way.

    in Tacoma, they have lots of double track for most of the route, with single track for only the last part of the central business district (then the thing just goes back the other way - but ride on the r/h side of the dual track once that starts up).

    in Seattle, it is all single track - so obviously, there is only one train. I think there is a small dual track portion but it is only for switching/passing. I think the industry calls this "headway".

    Obviously you can see, dual track has capacity advantages and I think this is the way OKC should go, at least for most of the routing. Obviously, single tracking has advantages too - mostly cost and right of way.

    2) what happens when an idiot hits a train? They usually die or get sever trauma injuries.

    when there is an accident, yes that spoke would shut down. Depending upon how severe the 'injury' to the train was, depends upon what needs to fix it.

    Yes, the trains are powered by overhead 'catenary' wire, as are most light rail systems. This is the beauty but also problem with light rail and streetcar systems; it's overhead power so it can run on streets BUT it's not 3rd rail dedicated right of way so you can't have true rapid mass transit. ...

    Maintenance will be similar to other streets, just coordinated with the transit agency - similar to how choo choo trains do it with city streets. brick streets dont matter, we have em in Tacoma and Seattle.

    hope that helps
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  22. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Tacoma's streetcar was funded by SoundTransit (our regional transit agency). SoundTransit does LRT in Seattle and regional bus in the Seattle Tacoma CSA. Seattle's streetcar was funded by the city of Seattle bonds (I think) as a seed project for South Lake Union/Vulcan (Paul Allen). I think Portland's streetcar was funded by their city bonds.

    I agree with Spartan, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. We need an extensive system in the downtown districts - before we can start having spokes to here and there. Remember, this is streetcar - so you probably do not want to have any one spoke longer than 3 miles (because it would take way too long to have a streetcar going any further).

    I think if we covered all of the downtown districts very well,

    1) Sheridan E-W (Classen/Western to Lincoln) dual tracked
    2) Walker or Hudson N-S (S 7th to 13th or so) single tracked
    3) EK Gaylord/Broadway (S 7th to 13th) single tracked with dual portions
    4) a deep deuce spur at 4th and Broadway/EK that runs up to Lincoln (and possibly into OHC)
    5) a few single track connectors in the CBD area and maybe running on 4th

    keep in mind, you can have a streetcar turn from one alignment to another, so it dont necessarily need to be a straight line and that's it (like a train or LRT). Streetcars can be quite versatile and I think that is how OKC should do it in the dense downtown CBD (plus opens up options for routes).

    This should be phase 1. If we can't do OHC with our MAPS funds, maybe they could contribute $25M or so to have a circular run through there. (side note) I think it would be way cool if OU had a streetcar circular in place of that trolley, a real trolley line.

    Plase 2+ could extend spokes up to Paseo/OCU/Asia District, Capitol campus, Capital Hill and Stockyard's City, and maybe into the Eastside a bit, and MAYBE Penn Square/Nichols Hills. That's as far as you'd want a streetcar to go, because it would move incredibly slow sharing right of way and ahving so many stops. If OKC got this extensive of a system, it would be the impetis for LRT to cover the rest of the city once we get density (of course, LRT has less stops but is faster - so justifies service to areas away from the inner core but still in OKC city limits).

    Commuter rail is a different animal, since it is even less stops but runs on traditional rail corridors; we could actually do CR tomorrow. I envision the following routes:

    EAST: Choctaw PnR-Tinker-MWC downtown-Del City PnR-DOWNTOWN
    SOUTH: Purcell PnR-OU-Norman downtown-Crossroads PnR-DOWNTOWN
    NORTH: Guthrie downtown-N. Edmond PnR-Edmond downtown (maybe)-S. Edmond PnR-N. 63rd TC-DOWNTOWN

    Then there's the Heritage Train for the North East/Adventure District to DOWNTOWN and the West and South West alignments.

    I honestly think we should probably go from streetcar straight to Commuter rail (or vice versa) and probably skip LRT for a while, because of the cost savings and the fact that OKC aint the densest city in the nation. .....

    Exciting times - definitely!!!
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  23. #123

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown84 View Post
    Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

    a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

    or

    b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


    I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.
    I prefer the Broadway option.

  24. #124

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Broadway just HAS to have a line.

  25. #125

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Platemaker View Post
    Broadway just HAS to have a line.
    Agree - seems like a no-brainer to me. It might not be in first phase but it has to have one.

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