Streetcar

[Urban Pioneer]

Keep in mind folks that Jeff Speck has sold this city on street narrowing and eliminating all one way streets. It is a great opportunity to consider taking a lane here or there and making exclusively for transit. EK Gaylord in front of SanteFe Station is a great example.

[EBAH]

It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.

Sorry, credit where credit is due, it was Spartans comment I was commenting on....

[betts]

I'm perfectly happy to have it run right by my house. I've already got the trains, might has well have the streetcar. On a cold or rainy night, it would beat walking to the Ford Center.

[onthestrip]

I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.

[jbrown84]

I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.

It would be nice, but it's pretty out of the way. If we do spokes, I'd say it's more likely than if it's a loop.

[Urban Pioneer]

Sounds like a great "phase 2" consideration.

[Urban Pioneer]

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

[okclee]

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

I have been thinking along the same lines.

[krisb]

I have been thinking along the same lines.

No pun intended, right?

[soonerguru]

How do people in general feel about Broadway in a transit context? I mean, speculatively if it were Walker versus Broadway on a "Northbound route" which has greater appeal in a redevelopment impact? For that matter even Hudson (great expanses of vacant lots).

Do we have to pick. They would both be great.

Broadway to 23rd would be cool if it turned on 23rd and went West.

It would obviously be great to see the land along Walker fill in, though, linking downtown to Midtown.

[jbrown84]

Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

or

b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.

[Kerry]

Interesting question. I think it comes down to this: Do you believe that

a) the streetcar would have the most impact where it can front completely new development

or

b) the streetcar would have the most impact where it fronts existing buildings that are prime for mixed use redevelopment


I lean towards opinion B, but I'm not married to the idea.

I prefer the Broadway option.

[okclee]

If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.

[shane453]

Broadway vs. Walker/Hudson is a tough question. Broadway already has businesses and it is prime to be a main retail street in the future. Do we reward those businesses by giving them a streetcar connection, or do we encourage more businesses and developments by putting the streetcar in an area with vacant lots.

If we used Hudson on the west and Oklahoma Ave on the east, then Automobile Alley would be within 3 blocks to the west and 2 blocks to the east of streetcar connection. Is that okay? How far will people walk from a streetcar stop?

Here is a graphic that Blair Humphreys did showing walk times, to give us an idea of how far people can walk to/from streetcar lines.



And here is an aerial image showing just how much infill potential there is in our downtown/Midtown areas. Imagine empty lots and parking lots filling with dense, transit-oriented development as a result of having a streetcar connection. Also note that almost every major building in this frame has already been renovated or is currently being renovated to retail or loft residences.

If only we had more than the 5 or 6 miles to work with.

Yeah, I thought it sounded like a lot, and if it existed today it'd be America's biggest modern streetcar system, but imagine if we had 10 miles... But hey, I'm just happy it's really happening at all! Wow!

[betts]

Hmmm. I probably am biased towards Broadway, because I like it so much better as a street. But also, the concept of a "broad way" implies it is the most important street in a city or town. To me, it's more central, as it's closer to Bricktown, the Ford Center, etc, but again, that's my personal bias. Hudson does have much vaster expanses of open land, but what could we expect to be built along it? Would it have as much visual appeal?

[okclee]

After looking at the downtown map and considering "who is who", Sheridan will definitely have the east / west line going from Lincoln to Classen.

That stretch is 1.5 miles, now we are down to 4 miles left.

The north / south line needs to be? _____ (This is the question remaining.)

[Spartan]

I think that there are a lot of great ideas going around here. I loved EBAH's account of how much he/she would appreciate actually bringing the streetcar back to the neighborhoods it once traveled through. I can also appreciate the perspective that we SHOULD have a stop at OCU Law, the Boathouses, etc.. it should go through Bricktown, Devon should have a stop, etc etc..

So many good ideas.

Let's focus on an organic system that covers downtown. Just downtown. Nothing else. If it stops through Bricktown and past Devon and creates some really cool opportunities along Automobile Alley, that's great. But we just need a starter system with this 6 miles. No doubt that we have a big big downtown area to cover, including a lot of areas we never would have considered downtown a few years ago. Let's just cover as much and try and have an organic system approach with this first step.

It's good that we have so many good ideas. Let's also make plans for a Phase 2 that can include a second loop that goes further out, to Classen and down to the Boathouses, and maybe the State Capitol.. but unfortunately those things are undoubtedly located too far out from the center of the action for us to include in the 6 mile segment.

But by all means, let's make plans to include these things with street car further down the road..

[EBAH]

Not sure where your neighborhood is, but I know that on N. Youngs Blvd., just S. of NW 23rd, there's still a small section of tracks in the pavement.

I live in Crestwood, at the intersection of Miller Ave, and NW 16th. I LOVE riding my bike through the neighborhoods following the old routes, and I do know the tracks that you are referring to, in the intersection of NW 19th and Youngs, I shed a metaphorical tear every time my wheels pass over them.

I think that there are a lot of great ideas going around here. I loved EBAH's account of how much he/she would appreciate actually bringing the streetcar back to the neighborhoods it once traveled through. I can also appreciate the perspective that we SHOULD have a stop at OCU Law, the Boathouses, etc.. it should go through Bricktown, Devon should have a stop, etc etc..

So many good ideas.

Let's focus on an organic system that covers downtown. Just downtown. Nothing else. If it stops through Bricktown and past Devon and creates some really cool opportunities along Automobile Alley, that's great. But we just need a starter system with this 6 miles. No doubt that we have a big big downtown area to cover, including a lot of areas we never would have considered downtown a few years ago. Let's just cover as much and try and have an organic system approach with this first step.

It's good that we have so many good ideas. Let's also make plans for a Phase 2 that can include a second loop that goes further out, to Classen and down to the Boathouses, and maybe the State Capitol.. but unfortunately those things are undoubtedly located too far out from the center of the action for us to include in the 6 mile segment.

But by all means, let's make plans to include these things with street car further down the road..

Oh I couldn't agree more. I realize that this should be a "starter set" and and that keeping it a quickly moving centralized loop. I will be thrilled as long as it can effectively link Capital Complex, Medical Center, and CBD together. I think that this will prove vital to building a real retail and dining district adjacent to the CBD. The idea of large amounts of workers in all three of those enormous employment centers all having direct access to the shops and eateries in Midtown, Film Row, Automobile Alley, etc. just makes my mind race. Also, the shoppers/diners coming in would be on foot, making them MUCH more likely to make unexpected stops (WOW shops in OKC actually getting foot traffic, like on actual feet). To me at this time, it is mostly about getting the thousands of workers (and their wallets) in to downtown, for lunch, happy hours, and on into the evenings, as well as bringing the now somewhat sequestered Bricktown/inner downtown convention visitors, tourists, business travelers, sports fans, and general entertainment seekers into parts of downtown that currently feel a bit outside of walkability (previously mentioned districts). Which brings me to another question, in other communities with downtown circulators, how late do these things run? Will they be there for me at last call?

Oh, and I am male...

[okclee]

Does anyone know how the other cities (Portland, Memphis, Little Rock, Seattle) fund their streetcar system?

[onthestrip]

I have just sort of assumed it should go up Broadway and head west at 10th and get on walker there or head NW along Plaza Court.
However, there are some things to ponder about a Walker line. Broadway is fairly car friendly and its a busier road while Walker would seem like more of the "neighborhood" line, going straight to midtown, our best hope for a dense, urban, and walkable place to live. Also meaning more (re)investment oppurtunities.

[Urban Pioneer]

You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?

Does this project offer an opportunity for a more efficient streetcar connection to Midtown?

[jbrown84]

You know, another thing to think about is that diagonal street we approved in the 2007 bond issue that goes from Hudson (7th I think) to the Midtown Traffic Circle. Brand new street, cost savings?

It is my understanding that the city is going to buy that duplex at 8th/Hudson and demolish it?

I didn't know anything about this. Got a map?

[hoya]

I think we need to start making a list of the places we want to go. Forget about places it "needs" to connect, let's think about who we are and where we would take a streetcar. This will only work if people actually want to use it. I think we get a little ahead of ourselves trying to connect it to everybody, without determining if it takes people where they want to go.

I'm imagining using it at lunch. There are times when I'd like to go into Bricktown to eat, but I get out of court late, and I'd have to drive over there and park to get back on time, and sometimes I just don't want to do that. So I'd like a stop that ran from the courthouse to Bricktown. Something that would go by Abuelos, put me a short hop from Zio's, and run on down to Crabtown. Something where I'd be within a two minute walk of the nicer places to eat once I got off the streetcar. It would also be nice if I could take it from Bricktown restaurants to the Ford Center. I also would like to be able to take the streetcar up to McNellie's after work. Hit those areas and I'm happy.

[HOT ROD]

Tacoma's streetcar was funded by SoundTransit (our regional transit agency). SoundTransit does LRT in Seattle and regional bus in the Seattle Tacoma CSA. Seattle's streetcar was funded by the city of Seattle bonds (I think) as a seed project for South Lake Union/Vulcan (Paul Allen). I think Portland's streetcar was funded by their city bonds.

I agree with Spartan, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. We need an extensive system in the downtown districts - before we can start having spokes to here and there. Remember, this is streetcar - so you probably do not want to have any one spoke longer than 3 miles (because it would take way too long to have a streetcar going any further).

I think if we covered all of the downtown districts very well,

1) Sheridan E-W (Classen/Western to Lincoln) dual tracked
2) Walker or Hudson N-S (S 7th to 13th or so) single tracked
3) EK Gaylord/Broadway (S 7th to 13th) single tracked with dual portions
4) a deep deuce spur at 4th and Broadway/EK that runs up to Lincoln (and possibly into OHC)
5) a few single track connectors in the CBD area and maybe running on 4th

keep in mind, you can have a streetcar turn from one alignment to another, so it dont necessarily need to be a straight line and that's it (like a train or LRT). Streetcars can be quite versatile and I think that is how OKC should do it in the dense downtown CBD (plus opens up options for routes).

This should be phase 1. If we can't do OHC with our MAPS funds, maybe they could contribute $25M or so to have a circular run through there. (side note) I think it would be way cool if OU had a streetcar circular in place of that trolley, a real trolley line.

Plase 2+ could extend spokes up to Paseo/OCU/Asia District, Capitol campus, Capital Hill and Stockyard's City, and maybe into the Eastside a bit, and MAYBE Penn Square/Nichols Hills. That's as far as you'd want a streetcar to go, because it would move incredibly slow sharing right of way and ahving so many stops. If OKC got this extensive of a system, it would be the impetis for LRT to cover the rest of the city once we get density (of course, LRT has less stops but is faster - so justifies service to areas away from the inner core but still in OKC city limits).

Commuter rail is a different animal, since it is even less stops but runs on traditional rail corridors; we could actually do CR tomorrow. I envision the following routes:

EAST: Choctaw PnR-Tinker-MWC downtown-Del City PnR-DOWNTOWN
SOUTH: Purcell PnR-OU-Norman downtown-Crossroads PnR-DOWNTOWN
NORTH: Guthrie downtown-N. Edmond PnR-Edmond downtown (maybe)-S. Edmond PnR-N. 63rd TC-DOWNTOWN

Then there's the Heritage Train for the North East/Adventure District to DOWNTOWN and the West and South West alignments.

I honestly think we should probably go from streetcar straight to Commuter rail (or vice versa) and probably skip LRT for a while, because of the cost savings and the fact that OKC aint the densest city in the nation. .....

Exciting times - definitely!!!

[Platemaker]

Broadway just HAS to have a line.