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Thread: Streetcar

  1. #76

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Plus it would add a couple of more minutes to a trip and still only cover the 1 block of Lincoln.

  2. #77

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I'
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Plus it would add a couple of more minutes to a trip and still only cover the 1 block of Lincoln.
    Yes. They really need to think through the route(s) and the stops. It's critical. The thing has to be a viable form of transit. As efficient as possible, yet with enough stops to be useful. Too many stops would be a problem. Too few is a problem.

    Another problem is if the big picture gets scrambled by powerful interests insisting on stops, etc.

    This is going to be an exciting challenge. It needs to be big picture thinking and as pure a design process as possible.

    The stuff I'm hearing from some insiders indicates they're going to do this the right way.

  3. #78

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Urban Pioneer,

    I have another question maybe you could answer.

    The 5 to 6 miles, is that total miles of track both ways or one way only?

    Example; If I were to go from the Capitol to Bricktown and back is that 2 miles of streetcar or is that considered 4 miles?

  4. #79

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Okay, I'm excited that this is all coming to pass. I can barely believe that OKC is moving ahead with this. It's all sort of surreal.

    That said, I have a few questions. I'm sure they're easy to answer, but I just don't know how some of this will work at this point.

    First batch:
    On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
    Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
    If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
    How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
    Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?

    Second:
    With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
    How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
    These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
    What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
    How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?

    Just curious on a lot of this stuff. Urban Pioneer?

  5. #80

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    ^^ Great questions.

  6. #81

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Hoya - Here are some of your answers.

    On a spoke and hub system, how do these streetcars turn around?
    The car are bi-directional so they just start going the other way. There is no back or front and seats face both directions.

    Once they get where they're going, is there a little loop and they just start going back the other direction? Or will there be two sets of track, so that "6 miles" is really 12?
    Usually at the end of line there are two sets of tracks. In Tampa the street car travels both directions on just one track so there are a few places where there are siding so they can pass each other. In Memphis they have dedicated directions, which I like better by the way becasue they can serve both sides of the street and flow better with traffic.

    If it travels the same track back the other direction, does that mean that there can only ever be one streetcar on a given spoke at any one time?
    There are passing tracks.

    How long does that mean you'd have to wait until another car came along?
    Yes it does and it can be annoying when you riding during lunch hour.

    Would that make it difficult to decrease the time between cars at peak ridership times?
    Yes it would. We were in Memphis on Friday night and I am not kidding - there was a trolley every 30 seconds.

    With streetcars running on regular public streets, what happens when some idiot slams his car into one of the streetcars?
    That is a problem but no more of a problem then someone hitting another car. In place where I have seen dedicated tracks for each direction they have switches every few blocks that can divert trains around an obsticle by just having them cross the street.

    How much of the system would they have to shut down in the case of a serious accident? Just that spoke?
    See the above answer.

    These things get powered by... an overhead power line? How are those held aloft?
    Poles similar to street lights and in some cases - actual street lights. They can be quite decorative.

    What happens in the case of regular old street maintenance, like repaving the road?
    As long as they don't touch the tracks then there is no prolem.

    How will we run the track in Bricktown, will the brick streets there require any special treatment when we put in tracks?
    Anywhere the track go will have to be seriously reinforced. In Tampa they poured a ton of concrete to put the track on.

  7. #82

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I much favor a loop system. That would make it a lot easier to add more cars onto the track at peak times and have more service during then. With a hub and spoke, there would only be one car on a track. The loop system would also encourage downtown to develop much more organically.

    The hub and spoke system does have one advantage though, and that's that a collision with a car would have less impact on a spoke than if it were on a loop that the entire system is along.

    Brick streets are no big deal.

    Here's an example of what's happened in Houston with LIGHT RAIL. LRT typically moves a lot faster than streetcar and is less accessible to pedestrians, therefor it usually has its own right of way..but not in Houston. Streetcar typically poses next do NO risk to cars or pedestrians because it's slower and more accessible to pedestrians, stops more often, etc.

    YouTube - Metro's Greatest Hits

    <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV2rdGX4JYc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CV2rdGX4JYc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

    edit: looks like Kerry already beat me to some of the answers..

  8. #83

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Here are some photos of Historic street car lines (OKC will be modern street car)


    End of the line dual track station in Ybor City (Tampa)



    The Tampa system is at-grade but seperated from travel lane using a small curb.



    View of power lines and poles (Tampa)



    In Memphis the trolley moves to the center of the road at some intersetions to pass traffic.



    Pedestrian mall in downtown Memphis - notice the dual tracks and decorative poles

  9. #84

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Here's an example of what's happened in Houston with LIGHT RAIL. LRT typically moves a lot faster than streetcar and is less accessible to pedestrians, therefor it usually has its own right of way..but not in Houston.
    I will never make a left turn in Houston again. I hope those people were all okay.

  10. #85

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Oh, I guess I misunderstood. I thought the streetcars would be running in regular traffic lanes, so that your car would be in the same lane as the streetcar, and you'd be stopped at a red light sitting behind the thing. It doesn't look that way from the pics you've posted.

    Thanks Kerry and Spartan!

  11. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    I was watching the video of McCain and Coburn list out examples of some of the crazy projects federal stimulus money is funding. I wonder how much of the MAPS projects we could get stimulus money to fund and build?
    All eight of them make more sense than these research studies at OU and OSU.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  12. #87

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by hoyasooner View Post
    Oh, I guess I misunderstood. I thought the streetcars would be running in regular traffic lanes, so that your car would be in the same lane as the streetcar, and you'd be stopped at a red light sitting behind the thing. It doesn't look that way from the pics you've posted.

    Thanks Kerry and Spartan!
    It is possible that the street cars will be directly in the travel lanes as tha happens in Memphis but these aren't moving that fast, unlike the Houston system. Having a high speed train running in traffic just doesn't sound like a good idea.

  13. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses


  14. #89

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    That would be an incredible route. It's not the spoke concept the mayor said he favored, and I don't know how many miles that covers, but it we could get the line all the way up to 23rd St. that would be great.

  15. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    8.6 miles

  16. #91

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I would have to think the system would be far cheaper to build if built in existing traffic lanes. Rail construction is extremely expensive - does the amount of money allotted for this project cover the cost of right-of-way purchase that would be necessary in some locations?

  17. #92

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    In order for rail transit to be efficient and embraced by the public, the design needs to be such that direct service to primary destination areas is maximized and the need for transfers is minimized.

    A circulating loop design can eliminate transfers, but it also can increase travel times if riders have to travel a longer distance and make more stops to get where they are going.

    A spoke and hub design can allow for more direct service and reduced travel times to the varioius primary destination areas, while keeping transfer requirements to a minimum at the hub.

    Another important aspect in the design is to make sure it allows for increased capacity as the entire regional rail system grows.

    A circulating loop design addresses that need by being able to simply add more trains into the loop.

    As Kerry points out, a spoke and hub design can also meet those needs as long as the design includes double tracking or sidetracks for the street cars to pass in opposite directions.

    A lot of expert planning and engineering services will be necessary to get the most for the money and make the system the best it can be, both now and into the future.

    On a very related subject, I just saw this on the Light Rail Now website

    Cincinnati: Rail Transit Wins at Last - Light Rail Now

    Last month Cincinnati voters approved a similar initiative for a modern street car system.

    The Light Rail Now website is a great resource for rail transit supporters. I'd encourage all of those who are interested in this issue to take a good look at the information they have assembled.

    A very exciting time for OKC and rail transit!!!

  18. Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I like that route as well, but I think Heritage Hills would NIMBY it.
    Don't Edmond My Downtown

  19. #94

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I am thinking the trolley needs to go down Reno as it passes through Bricktown. Reno is wider so the trolley track can be made separate from the road and then it can pass between the current Cox Convention Center and the Ford Center. Plus, that will make it only one block off the new boulevard. It would allow front door service to the Harkin Theater and Baseball Stadium, nearly direct access to water taxis, and will save space along Sheridan for horse drawn carriages. Sheridan is already a pretty cool street, I think adding street cars to it will make it too crowded.

  20. #95

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Keep in mind folks that Jeff Speck has sold this city on street narrowing and eliminating all one way streets. It is a great opportunity to consider taking a lane here or there and making exclusively for transit. EK Gaylord in front of SanteFe Station is a great example.

  21. #96

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by jbrown84 View Post
    I like that route as well, but I think Heritage Hills would NIMBY it.
    It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.

  22. #97

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I'm perfectly happy to have it run right by my house. I've already got the trains, might has well have the streetcar. On a cold or rainy night, it would beat walking to the Ford Center.

  23. #98

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    It would be interesting, considering they were probably the biggest yes in the whole city. I don't think that a streetcar route should go through Heritage Hills or Mesta Park anyway...although it's worth noting the former route up and down Robinson, in that wide grassy median.
    Also Shartel through Mesta Park.

  24. #99

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I mentioned it earlier but no one else has, do we not need the streetcar to have a stop at the boathouses? I would think we would.

  25. #100

    Default Re: The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3 Progresses

    I'm glad you mentioned that UrbanPioneer, I've wondered if the city takes those medians in to account when planning these routes. I mean, these neighborhoods were originally designed around an inner city street car system. One of the old routes dead ends about 2 houses down from me, and I can say, it really makes me sad to think about how awesome the neighborhood would be if it were still there. I would LOVE too see some of those medians torn out and returned to their original use, who knows, they might even be pre-reinforced to handle the weight of the cars. Does anyone know if the original transit layout will have any effect on the new one?

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