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Thread: Streetcar

  1. #9126

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    This is not remotely true. Cars are the least subsidized form of transportation that exists.

    https://opportunityurbanism.org/2019...idies-by-mode/
    The link is obviously from a highly biased source, so at a minimum is going to be extremely misleading.

    But yeah, when you include the cost of car ownership and don't include indirect subsidies, and ignore forced subsidies via zoning, etc. It can really skew the results.

    Anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows that you are introducing massive bias when you divide by miles traveled, too, since miles through corn fields are insanely cheap compared to urban mileage. Mass transit operates over short, extremely expensive distances, while the majority of the highway system is in the middle of no where.

    Edit: based on your other posts, you are massively misunderstanding what I said. I never said cars don't pay for anything. Their massive capital and opex requirements are a huge negative for cars, especially for lower income people. But their own capital and opex is completely different than the costs on society for their use. Gas taxes do not fully pay for car infrastructure at the federal or state level. Currently nothing is paying for the damage their pollution causes. Beyond free pollution and subsidized infrastructure, there are a ton of indirect subsidies too, like mandated parking, etc.

    Obviously overall cars and freight have been a economic positive to the US, but that doesn't mean they are the best solution in every case. And my initial point, many posts back, is that it is ridiculous that public transit is always expected to pay for itself in direct fees, while there is no similar expectation for cars (and especially not freight).

  2. #9127

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    This is so laughably untrue it defies explanation. Private vehicles enable each and every individual the freedom to go nearly anywhere they want at anytime they want, facilitate broad delivery of goods and services throughout cities, states, and the nation. They give people the ability to live and work where they choose. They offer the ability to provide emergency services such as fire, police, and medical attention. "Cost burden?" "Loss of life/ability to work?" Shall we go back to covered wagons and horse-drawn carriages? C'mon.

    Please. Cars have their place. Streetcars have their place. Airplanes have their place. And each has its drawbacks. Let's not go down the road of unilaterally vilifying one of the tremendous and vastly underappreciated benefits of living in a free society.
    Not sure who's argument you're responding to, but it isn't mine. I never said anything about cars giving or not giving freedom, or facilitating movement of goods. Not at all "unilaterally vilifying" cars, just debating the idea that public transit should pay for itself, while cars don't come close to paying for themselves. Feel free to actually argue against what I said, as opposed to the straw man you built.

    But are you seriously trying to say automobiles don't result in the loss of life or short/long term disabilities?

    BTW: To make it more obvious, I was saying that the street car is more likely to be successful and provide more benefit to the city free, than them attempting to collect a tiny percentage of the opex through fares. I wasn't at all saying we should closed down roads and force everyone to take the streetcar everywhere.

  3. #9128

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous. View Post
    Why don't we cover the streetcars in advertisements, inside and out. Since so many of them are driving around with hardly anyone inside, it might as well earn ad revenue whilst doing so. Look at the ridership numbers for every weekend in December for evidence.

    I have a lot of friends who have never tried it because when you have a group of 4-6 people, an Uber/Lyft split between them is less than the cost of everyone to buy a ticket. Plus the vehicle is coming to and dropping off at an exact location and you can track its arrival on a map.

    Make the streetcar free by whatever means possible and you remove a huge entry barrier.
    I agree, any hope of making the streetcar a true success will require it be free, just like the Boulevard, Scissortail Park, and I-235.

    But, I wanted to clarify, you can now track the train location on Google Maps. I found it to be pretty accurate.

  4. #9129

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorba View Post
    The link is obviously from a highly biased source, so at a minimum is going to be extremely misleading.

    But yeah, when you include the cost of car ownership and don't include indirect subsidies, and ignore forced subsidies via zoning, etc. It can really skew the results.

    Anyone with any knowledge of the subject knows that you are introducing massive bias when you divide by miles traveled, too, since miles through corn fields are insanely cheap compared to urban mileage. Mass transit operates over short, extremely expensive distances, while the majority of the highway system is in the middle of no where.
    You already posted these claims and I responded to them.

  5. #9130

    Default Re: Streetcar


  6. #9131

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Isn't that old data? Where can we find this source?

  7. #9132

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous. View Post
    Isn't that old data? Where can we find this source?
    I corrected the image; I had linked to an old one.

    This is from a monthly report issued by COTPA.

  8. #9133

    Default Re: Streetcar

    This thread reminds me a lot of the Eufaula thread. Live blogging statistics which don't help paint an accurate picture of the larger issues and aims. It was built to encourage dense downtown development. I don't think that it's a coincidence that dense downtown development has been springing up all along the streetcar route. Condemning the streetcar today as failed is just as silly as the folks who denounced OKC's water policy thinking Canton was going to head the way of Lake Optima. Say what you want about previous city managers, OKC has had excellent leadership and long-term thinking, and the streetcar is part of that.

  9. #9134

    Default Re: Streetcar

    It will be very interesting to see the ridership impact of the new convention center and how much it is utilized to move people to and from Bricktown.

  10. #9135

    Default Re: Streetcar

    I was the only one on it a little after 6:30 from Bricktown to the Jason Aldean concert. This was a Friday night also. Tons of people walking to the concert but no one was riding the streetcar. Maybe they want the exercise? Maybe they don't want to spend $1. Don't know what is it but amazes me for concerts no one is riding it. Now for Thunder Games it has picked up some.

  11. #9136

    Default Re: Streetcar

    I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.

  12. #9137

    Default Re: Streetcar

    This is a start and honestly I can’t believe this wasn’t done from the get. It just shows, IMO, that this system could see a bump in riders if it were operated more efficient and effectively.

    https://journalrecord.com/2020/03/03...ng-streetcars/

  13. #9138

    Default Re: Streetcar


  14. #9139

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.
    Agree.

  15. #9140

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I'd think going fare-free would help a lot.
    I've been trying to find the article again, but i can't seem to get it, and it looks like it might be behind one of the paywall sites that i used up all my free views on.

    but just a week or so ago, was reading how Kansas City actually saved money by going fare-free. because the cost for handling the money, counting the money, controls around the money, and external auditors to verify and test the controls, was actually more than the total amount they were bringing in. so the operations costs were getting covered by it anyways.

  16. #9141

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    I've been trying to find the article again, but i can't seem to get it, and it looks like it might be behind one of the paywall sites that i used up all my free views on.

    but just a week or so ago, was reading how Kansas City actually saved money by going fare-free. because the cost for handling the money, counting the money, controls around the money, and external auditors to verify and test the controls, was actually more than the total amount they were bringing in. so the operations costs were getting covered by it anyways.
    That makes a lot of sense. If you end up finding it, I'd love to read it.

  17. #9142

    Default Re: Streetcar

    https://dcist.com/story/20/03/02/fre...-in-the-works/

    A bill in DC for fare free metro.
    Last edited by Edmond Hausfrau; 03-05-2020 at 08:50 AM. Reason: Clarification

  18. #9143

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Edmond Hausfrau View Post
    well not quite fare free. for a $100 subsidy for metro each month. but i do like that if you are paying the like $350 a month for unlimited pass, you can use it towards that as well.

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