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Thread: Streetcar

  1. #7976

    Default Re: Streetcar

    The problem with adding all the extra light prioritization cost - has anyone done a recent study of how it would effects areas within a block or so of the lights?

    We all as citizens need to make sure before we spend more money that this is the right answer. I’ve not see that aspect addressed only statements saying to spend $450k on lights will fix the street car problem.

    Questions to ask but not limited to:

    1. How many minutes between the same stop? Not next stops but if in front of arena when one sc leaves how fast is the projected next car arriving at that same spot? Its important to know in relation to lights.

    If its “every 7 minutes” sc stops is our target that means each and every traffic light would have to change its pattern evey 7 minutes to keep sc on time. That may be too often when looking at this all day/night long and reg car traffic might get delayed from stacking up on prior prioritization. Do cars stack up backwards and block businesses?

    2. What is the traffic impact a block away? If you keep reducing a lights length then does traffic back up a block away and cause secondary problems? So now that traffic is at a standstill and gridlock happens

    Just make sure if we spend “more” tax money we know all outcomes prior to spending. I not seen any studies on car traffic impacts of changing lights priority.

    I do know OKC has for years tried to time lights to aide traffic and has failed badly. If one ever driven NW Exp you know what I mean. So now we need city to let lights give SC priority and I can imagine the side effects this will have on other traffic and roads.

    So my taxpaying citzen input is find out the preferred stop cycle time for SCs and get a traffic light change impact study done.

    You can’t just blanket give SC a blank check to fix their problem if it creates other problems not considered or resolved.

    Thanks

  2. #7977

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    I agree that lunch users are relevant... particularly from an economic Sales Taxe Revenue standpoint. With the improved and broader deployment of signal prioritization and our launch of a real-time GPS map, using it for such purposes will increase in viability.

    And yes, in ten years the broader diversification and densification of the area means that operationally, it should benefit from these improved demographics downtown.
    Real-time GPS map?!? Alright! Any ideas when this will launch?

  3. #7978

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by aDark View Post
    Did anyone else catch the heated Twitter exchange between Lackmeyer and Mayor Holt on NYE? Shots fired re the Streetcar delays on NYE post-Thunder game:
    Yes! My wife was not very happy with how much time I spent on Twitter that night and yesterday. Today it continues onward. On one hand, I am thrilled it happened because it will probably help us expedite getting the Signal Prioritization install solved.

    On the other hand, it is irritating that Lackmeyer is insistent on spreading a false narrative that streetcar supporters are unhappy with his criticisms and diatribes. NOW is the time to communicate, communicate, communicate. Bring it on! If somethings not working right, let's point it out, turn the screw on city staff, and get it fixed.

  4. #7979

    Default Re: Streetcar

    OKC Guy- the traffic signals are "dumb". A few intersections have special turn lane cycles that activate at certain times of the day. That is the extent of it. Any sort of GPS or geo-netting technology would open a 20 - 30-second window of time for the streetcar. Perhaps even shorter. Any unintended effects would be severely limited and so momentary that they would be absorbed by all of the other dumb movements. In essence, its a wash with the particular OPTICOM technology proposed.

  5. #7980

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnb911 View Post
    Real-time GPS map?!? Alright! Any ideas when this will launch?
    I suspect after the Twitter blow up's, much sooner. There is more to that story as why it wasn't deployed beforehand. We had a third party entity affecting our deployment plans.

  6. #7981

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Steve is right about this. Whoever is in charge of the streetcar system needs to change the arrival times and stop blaming the lights for the wrong times. There has to be a way to manually change the times so someone isn't waiting around for 30 minutes for a train that was supposed to arrive in 5. If you want to set this thing up for failure, that is how you do it. Lots of people won't give second chances.

  7. #7982

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Steve is right that the monitor issues should be addressed. At times like New Years Eve, the boards should just read something like, "Due to traffic, streetcar times cannot be predicted." Moreover, I don't understand why the streetcars don't have GPS and why this can't be fixed when it's used for bus systems and metros all over the country, but I know people are on top of it.

    However, Lackmeyer's tone (e.g., the streetcar is "a complete joke") is a poor look for anyone, much less a journalist.

  8. #7983

    Default Re: Streetcar

    I have ridden the SC several times for various types of trips. The SC absolutely needs: (1) signal prioritization on all lights, immediately; (2) an app and on-screen correct locations for the SCs immediately; (3) more SCs running on the loops; and (4) to be shut down and completely rebuilt as a dual track between Capitol Hill and uptown. The loop decision was clearly not the right one and it was chosen to force people to walk, as Urban Pioneer stated in an earlier post. It wasn't chosen for actual commuters who need to get to work or to a restaurant. KC already proved that and that it should be fare-free, but our SC Committee thought they knew better, I guess.

  9. #7984

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    Steve is right about this. Whoever is in charge of the streetcar system needs to change the arrival times and stop blaming the lights for the wrong times. There has to be a way to manually change the times so someone isn't waiting around for 30 minutes for a train that was supposed to arrive in 5. If you want to set this thing up for failure, that is how you do it. Lots of people won't give second chances.
    Steve is blowing up a grid-lock scenario during a major NYE event. I agree that some sort of alternative message should have been sent to the boards. However, the lights are a contributing and continual accuracy inhibitor. The lights ARE a daily accuracy real-time estimate problem!

  10. #7985

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    Steve is blowing up a grid-lock scenario during a major NYE event. I agree that some sort of alternative message should have been sent to the boards. However, the lights are a contributing and continual accuracy inhibitor. The lights ARE a daily accuracy real-time estimate problem!
    You can just have said "the lights ARE a daily problem" for the streetcars and every other driver downtown.

  11. #7986

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    OKC Guy- the traffic signals are "dumb". A few intersections have special turn lane cycles that activate at certain times of the day. That is the extent of it. Any sort of GPS or geo-netting technology would open a 20 - 30-second window of time for the streetcar. Perhaps even shorter. Any unintended effects would be severely limited and so momentary that they would be absorbed by all of the other dumb movements. In essence, its a wash with the particular OPTICOM technology proposed.
    Are you quoting a study or not?

  12. #7987

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by okccowan View Post
    KC already proved that and that it should be fare-free, but our SC Committee thought they knew better, I guess.
    You can directly blame Jim Couch and Ed Shadid for streetcar fares. And, regarding the fares, OKC's structure is not the same as Kansas City as brought up in previous posts.

  13. #7988

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by of sound mind View Post
    you can just have said "the lights are a daily problem" for the streetcars and every other driver downtown.
    lol

  14. #7989

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    Are you quoting a study or not?
    Hours and hours and hours of meetings and debates about this issue is what I am quoting. Meetings that you did not have to sit through. Several pages back is a detailed synopsis of one of those meetings published as a courtesy.

  15. #7990

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    Hours and hours and hours of meetings and debates about this issue is what I am quoting. Meetings that you did not have to sit through. Several pages back is a detailed synopsis of one of those meetings published as a courtesy.
    So these are personal opinions of non traffic flow experts.

    I respect their work but I would never trust opinions over facts. Facts can only be obtained with a study by traffic engineers.

    Lets just say you own a business a half block away. All the sudden you start to notice cars backed up on your street. This change means customers stop coming to your business because its now hard to get to.

    We spent $130,000,000 already. If we haven’t performed a traffic study then its a failure to ask for more money when that solution may create bigger problems. We have to know.

    This is why I asked what the preferred time between same stop is. This can then be used by traffic engineers to see impacts of light changes. What if the crosswalk was just about to change but overidden by SC. When its done does it go back to crosswalk light or start over and they wait a cycle? We cannot assume.

    When people want a new light installed for what they perceive is a bad road the city has to do a study first, to see all the ripple effects. They don’t just run out and add a light (although it seems that way at times lol)

    This is not directed at you but in general. I would hate to buy this priority setup amd city comes back and says it will cause bigger problems if we go forward. It seems from all I have read everyone is laser focused on fixing the immediate SC problem but not consdering other potential problems.

    Has a study even been requested from the city yet?

    Thanks for your reply

  16. #7991

  17. #7992

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    You can directly blame Jim Couch and Ed Shadid for streetcar fares. And, regarding the fares, OKC's structure is not the same as Kansas City as brought up in previous posts.
    Yes, we should have "structured" our SC payment system just like KC's, not tried to reinvent the wheel.

  18. #7993

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    So these are personal opinions of non traffic flow experts.

    I respect their work but I would never trust opinions over facts. Facts can only be obtained with a study by traffic engineers.
    Who do you think these meetings were with?... traffic engineers. Specifically OKC Traffic Engineers and their consultants.

  19. #7994

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by okccowan View Post
    Yes, we should have "structured" our SC payment system just like KC's, not tried to reinvent the wheel.
    The people that control the Downtown OKC BID Board were against it. Therefore, EMBARK runs and funds the streetcar. Ed has made it clear that a Title 6 lawsuit will be brought if we make the streetcar free over buses. Jim Couch doesn't want homeless people on there all day or an ACLU lawsuit... therefore... fares.

  20. #7995

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    The people that control the Downtown OKC BID Board were against it. Therefore, EMBARK runs and funds the streetcar. Ed has made it clear that a Title 6 lawsuit will be brought if we make the streetcar free over buses. Jim Couch doesn't want homeless people on there all day or an ACLU lawsuit... therefore... fares.
    Is there another city where they have a free streetcar but still have fares on buses?

  21. #7996

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyShack View Post
    Is there another city where they have a free streetcar but still have fares on buses?
    Not that I can immediately recall. Fare-free zones yes. Kansas City has done many things right and it is admirable. They get it.

  22. #7997

    Default Re: Streetcar

    I really don't see a problem with fares, since anyone can purchase an unlimited Embark pass for $4 which is good for 24 hours, city wide with sc

  23. #7998

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    Who do you think these meetings were with?... traffic engineers. Specifically OKC Traffic Engineers and their consultants.
    Do they have a public “summary document” that can be viewed?

    Thanks

  24. #7999

    Default Re: Streetcar

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    SUMMARY

    September 24, 2018 Automatic Signal Priority Meeting for OKC Streetcar


    Between City Staff, EMBARK Staff, Consultants, and Myself
    420 Main (4th Floor MAPS Office Conference Room)


    There are 39 traffic signals that may potentially affect the efficient operation of OKC Streetcar.

    15 Signals will have some sort of degree of priority control that is fully-funded by MAPS.

    24 Signals currently do not have funded priority control and are being evaluated.

    An additional $600,000 is required to deploy priority control equipment to the remaining 24 locations.

    Consultants and OKC Streetcar Staff have identified three signal locations on the Bricktown loop that would potentially, positively affect route times.

    An estimated $150,000 has been identified as “next-step” investments and involve outfitting the seven train cars with OPTICOM transmitters and to convert the initial three signal control cabinets with new controllers that can communicate with the system.

    OPTICOM is the current method for actuating the signals due to historic reliability precedents with minimal, ongoing traffic management programming requirements from Public Works.

    OPTICOM has its limitations however as it is not a “smart” technology. It can cause preemptive traffic management cycling times to occur on demand. However, it does not actively make “smart” judgments about real-time situations at intersections. A camera-type solution may provide better overall results but also would likely require more ongoing programming investment costs to keep such a system reliable.

    The goal is 12 – 14-minute intervals between trains.

    Additional time extending beyond 12 – 14 minutes is projected to have a detrimental effect on ridership.

    Current Consultant estimates based on projected averages have trains estimated to function within reason.

    The Bricktown loop is taking longer to travel than projected. Factoring crosswalk signal cycles, Bricktown times can only be marginally improved but probably require the initial three OPTICOM signal investments to keep travel times within reason.



    (1 of 3)


    PERSONAL SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS


    Public Works Staff is resistant to a blanket Signal Priority Policy such as I have proposed to the OKC Traffic Commission and attempted to promote through the MAPS process.

    The attempt at implementing the policy has continued to elevate awareness about the issue.

    There is strong communication occurring between EMBARK and Traffic Control and active monitoring of route times.

    OPTICOM is not the ideal long-term solution to improve overall times but it is the immediate technology of choice by Public Works to resolve current obstacles that are delaying efficient streetcar circulation at key signal points.

    One of the main obstacles to improving times system-wide is pedestrian crosswalk buttons. If a reliable “camera-type” technology could be obtained that Public Works found acceptable, real-time evaluation of pedestrian activity might be achieved allowing for the smart ongoing evaluation of real-time conditions of crosswalks. Cameras could detect whether the crosswalk had fully cleared of activity and automatically shorten the length of time as necessary thus improving the promptness of green lighting streetcar through-movement. Such a system is being deployed in Kansas City.

    The problem with route timeliness and its relationship to signal cycles is incredibly dynamic and varies throughout the day. Additional building development and increased pedestrian activity downtown will ironically exacerbate the timeliness problem. A smarter preemption technology than OPTICOM should be pursued to assist with the new dynamism downtown and its impacts to streetcar movement.

    The meeting illustrated that there is an earnest effort to coordinate between city departments to achieve a consultant-based level of service timeliness that the consultant, JACOBS/URS, believes will obtain reasonable streetcar ridership.

    The current plan does not attempt to wholly eliminate unnecessary stops at red lights.

    I believe it is essential to actively monitor the situation as we enter testing and aggressively evaluate what the ridership experience is like.

    I also believe that additional “smart” solutions should be evaluated and a vendor solution selected that provides the necessary reliability and ongoing support that Public Works desires be provided in the immediate future.

    Eliminating unnecessary stops at red lights will improve the ridership experience and the sense of expediency that riders throughout the US expect out of streetcar travel.




    (2 of 3)


    NEXT STEPS THAT I RECOMMEND


    1. Approve the estimated $150,000 investment out of excess MAPS sales tax collections to improve travel times at three signals identified in Bricktown.

    2. Actively test and reevaluate B Line circulation after OPTICOM is deployed on the B Line.

    3. Begin testing on D line and evaluate performance.

    4. Identify bottlenecks that OPTICOM may temporarily improve.

    5. Develop a Request for Proposals through the Consultant for a truly “smart” priority system that uses technology such as cameras and achieves a real-time evaluation of intersection activity. This RFP should include commitments and provisos from potential vendors describing the level of ongoing support that they would be willing to commit to. Recognize that OPTICOM is not a long-term solution and is only a stop-gap measure. Utilize available MAPS funds to jump-start a permanent solution.




    Jeff M. Bezdek
    MAPS 3 Streetcar Subcommittee Appointee
    OKC Streetcar Initiative



    Cc. MAPS 3 Subcommittee Members, MAPS 3 Oversight Board, David Todd, Eric Wenger, Dennis Clowers, Doug Smith, Jesse Rush, Jason Ferbrache, James Cooper,

    (3 of 3)

    OKC Guy- Here is my summary of the last meeting that specifically dealt with this issue that had only traffic engineer present. This was publicly distributed at the following MAPS 3 meetings. There are many other meetings whose minutes are obtainable through okc.gov

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