Streetcar

[Just the facts]

How many people who are counted as riders along 23rd St start and end their bus trip on 23rd? It seems most start somewhere else within the City and end up on 23rd, and the people who originate their trip on 23rd end up somewhere else within the City.

[Spartan]

How many people who are counted as riders along 23rd St start and end their bus trip on 23rd? It seems most start somewhere else within the City and end up on 23rd, and the people who originate their trip on 23rd end up somewhere else within the City.

No, the bus route we are talking about is one of the few bus routes that remain on a single ROW. It's literally just "Bus Route 23." http://www.gometro.org/system-map

[Just the facts]

The 23 route is 11 miles long and connects to 11 other routes; it better have the most riders. I am sure connecting to Shephard Mall, a Univeristy, the State Capitol, and OU Medical plays a large part in that ridership. However, the goal of the streetcar isn't to connect suburbanites with employment centers, it is to facilitate the creation of high density mixed-use urban development where the streetcar replaces the automobile as the primary mover of people. Downtown OKC is the highest concentrate of jobs in the State of Oklahoma and also offers the best opportunity to support high density residential development.

Should 23rd be on a streetcar route at some point? Yes it should, but not phase 1. The backbone of the system has to be estalished first and that backbone connects to the multimodal transit hub at Santa Fe Station.

[ljbab728]

The 23 route is 11 miles long and connects to 11 other routes; it better have the most riders. I am sure connecting to Shephard Mall, a Univeristy, the State Capitol, and OU Medical plays a large part in that ridership. However, the goal of the streetcar isn't to connect suburbanites with employment centers, it is to facilitate the creation of high density mixed-use urban development where the streetcar replaces the automobile as the primary mover of people. Downtown OKC is the highest concentrate of jobs in the State of Oklahoma and also offers the best opportunity to support high density residential development.

Should 23rd be on a streetcar route at some point? Yes it should, but not phase 1. The backbone of the system has to be estalished first and that backbone connects to the multimodal transit hub at Santa Fe Station.

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. This is one time that we totally agree.

[Just the facts]

You're absolutely correct, Kerry. This is one time that we totally agree.

That's a clue that I have stayed up too late.

[Teo9969]

The 23 route is 11 miles long and connects to 11 other routes; it better have the most riders. I am sure connecting to Shephard Mall, a Univeristy, the State Capitol, and OU Medical plays a large part in that ridership. However, the goal of the streetcar isn't to connect suburbanites with employment centers, it is to facilitate the creation of high density mixed-use urban development where the streetcar replaces the automobile as the primary mover of people. Downtown OKC is the highest concentrate of jobs in the State of Oklahoma and also offers the best opportunity to support high density residential development.

Should 23rd be on a streetcar route at some point? Yes it should, but not phase 1. The backbone of the system has to be estalished first and that backbone connects to the multimodal transit hub at Santa Fe Station.

To be sure, I don't think anyone is advocating the streetcar span anywhere near an 11 mile long stretch on 23rd...rather simply the mile stretch between Broadway and Classen. The main purpose, IMO, is to frame the core and to put the corners of the frame strategically at high traffic areas.

The reason, to me, that 23rd would be a huge hit and success is because it is already one of the most urban mile long stretches that OKC has to offer. Almost everything is right against the street and there are already a variety of businesses on this stretch. Having the street car here would encourage more investment into the area.

That being said, the reality of only having 6 miles pretty much rules out the practicality of framing the core.

[Spartan]

I am in agreement as well with Kerry, ljbab, possibly Betts, and whomever else that the streetcar Phase 1 might not be the best time to link in 23rd. That said, it is an obvious Phase 2 extension IMO. This system must "go somewhere," to reference Pete White's remarks a while ago. I think that something that serves as viable transportation across a decent swath of OKC is more meaningful and valuable in the long-run than a mere downtown circulator.

Yes, that means that Core2Shore should be waaay below 23rd in the list of priorities.

[betts]

I am for 23rd being phase 2... I actually suggested that some time back. The initial point and current concern then is, if we expect/plan on tying into 23 in the future, how should we bui.ld that route today? Should the phase 1 route be focused on that cooperation with the current and future transit system, or TOD?

The phase 1 route takes future connections and extensions, TOD, linkage with other MAPS projects, linkage between Bricktown,and Midtown, the CBD and Core to Shore, as well as housing and ridership into consideration. A Classen to 23rd to Broadway or Robinson extension would be simple, but linkage to the Health Sciences Center, the Paseo, Capitol Hill or the Plaza District could be added just as simply. Once the complete route is approved, I would encourage people to drive it and think about its' relationship to all of the above. I think people will be surprised to see what kind of TOD potential exists, as well as the number of people and facilities which will be served, given the short mileage. But, Rome was not built in a day, nor will adequate mass transit be. It will take years of interest and effort by a great many people. This kind of dialogue is great, though, as opinions can ultimately give rise to reality.

[Spartan]

The phase 1 route takes future connections and extensions, TOD, linkage with other MAPS projects, linkage between Bricktown,and Midtown, the CBD and Core to Shore, as well as housing and ridership into consideration. A Classen to 23rd to Broadway or Robinson extension would be simple, but linkage to the Health Sciences Center, the Paseo, Capitol Hill or the Plaza District could be added just as simply. Once the complete route is approved, I would encourage people to drive it and think about its' relationship to all of the above. I think people will be surprised to see what kind of TOD potential exists, as well as the number of people and facilities which will be served, given the short mileage. But, Rome was not built in a day, nor will adequate mass transit be. It will take years of interest and effort by a great many people. This kind of dialogue is great, though, as opinions can ultimately give rise to reality.

I would personally recommend the streetcar route chauffeuring services of subcommittee members themselves, as they can divulge all kinds of interesting tidbits like, here we may turn this obscure street into a St. Anthony transit plaza, here is a potential switchover to battery-powered service, etc etc. Lots of incredible, innovative ideas await people at every turn on the route, and there just aren't enough kudos to hand out for the hard work of the subcommittee and MTP members. Talk about the most under-appreciated group in town.

I also think that we may be onto something. I think MTP could also put up a "streetcar route driving tour" with little tidbits and photos relating to here and there, and people could print it off of the MTP website and take it with them and do the tour themselves.

[BoulderSooner]

I guess if you assume a successful system needs a hub... then sure. I don't. I think "hubs" are fairly organic and are really just high-volume transfer centers. Hubs of transportation are not created, they are serviced and accommodated for successfully and unsuccessfully. You are making the case that a streetcar will change the multimodal behavior enough that a new hub will be needed. Again, just a different way to approaching it. We both want to see streetcars! =)

a central mulitmodel hub can't be organic it has to be planned .... if we are going to have a regional system (AA is just starting) the streetcar need to interact with that HUB and that is the sante fe facility .. when someone gets off the train from MWC/Norman/yukon ect... it will be at the hub

[Hutch]

a central mulitmodel hub can't be organic it has to be planned .... if we are going to have a regional system (AA is just starting) the streetcar need to interact with that HUB and that is the sante fe facility .. when someone gets off the train from MWC/Norman/yukon ect... it will be at the hub

Exactly. Effective rail transit systems require strategic, long-term planning. And that means initially taking a 30,000' view of the future and working backwards to today. We have existing rail corridors that will provide effective commuter rail service for the metropolitan area. Those lines require a hub connection for successful transfer operations. While initially the streetcar system functions as localized rail transit, in the future it also must serve as a critical component of the regional rail transit system to distribute riders of the system to and from the downtown area. As a result, it must connect to the hub. It's one thing to think about how to design the streetcar system to effectively service the downtown area in the near-term. It's a whole other thing to think about how to make that system also effectively connect to the hub in order to service the future regional rail system in the long-term. As rail line installation is very costly and permanent, the initial core streetcar system must be planned and designed for both current and future rail transit needs.

[Larry OKC]

During the campaign we talked about 6-7 miles and I thought this was a low number for us to be spending $120 million on.

Now I'm seeing 4-6 miles. Not going to lie, this is horrifying in my opinion. I know you know how badly we need those miles.

I dont recall 6 to 7, a quick Google from pre-vote (Nov '09) article http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps...rticle/3421122 said "five to six" miles (half of that when double tracked). Not sure what the current number is without looking it up...Urban?

[betts]

No one really knows how much a mile will cost. Everything being tossed about is an estimate. There's also the potential for federal money, although that is anything but a slam dunk. Regardless, even 4 miles would be longer than the initial streetcar route in Portland or Seattle, I believe. Remember too, the streetcar has 2 phases.

[BoulderSooner]

I dont recall 6 to 7, a quick Google from pre-vote (Nov '09) article http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps...rticle/3421122 said "five to six" miles (half of that when double tracked). Not sure what the current number is without looking it up...Urban?

looking at a system of about 5 miles+ with maps dollars

[betts]

I believe a route used by the voters has the best chance to create a pro-transit environment. I believe a streetcar admired by the voters has the best chance to create a pro-transit environment. I also think a route that creates riders, rather than simply creating a more attractive environment for existing riders has the best chance of success. What is most important for future transit in OKC is to get voters out of their cars. If the streetcar can make mass transit of all types, including the bus, appealing for current non-riders we will achieve something significant. To me, the best way to do that is to make it simple for current non-riders to get to places with high appeal. If I live in Mesta Park, Heritage Hills or SoSa, I can go to a game at the Ford Center, go to the park or Bricktown without having to drag out my car. If I live in Deep Deuce, I can go out to dinner in Midtown, go to a bar or go to a Dr. At St. Anthony's without getting out my car. If I'm a visitor, I can go out in Automobile Alley or Midtown without a cab or car. Park and ride would wildly expand the applicability of even the first stage route for vast numbers of people.

It's not perfect, but again, we have to work within the constraints of the given budget.

When we can move to a second stage, then making the streetcar available to existing users is an option. But, if we can create legible routes, what's wrong with taking the bus? I don't feel that having the bus as a transit option is somehow treating riders as second class citizens.

[Teo9969]

I'm sure this question has been answered, but this is a long thread: Will the streetcar cost anything to use?

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm sure this question has been answered, but this is a long thread: Will the streetcar cost anything to use?

There is a strong possibility that it will be free to riders. The discussion hasn't been formally reached yet. Presumably, if there are fares, it will be relatively small.

[Urban Pioneer]

Wednesday's March MAPS 3 Transit Subcommittee Meeting...

http://soundcloud.com/moderntransitp...maps-3-transit

[Just the facts]

There is a strong possibility that it will be free to riders. The discussion hasn't been formally reached yet. Presumably, if there are fares, it will be relatively small.

The Skyway here in Jax was converted to free last month and I rode it last week for the first time. It was packed on a Saturday afternoon. We actually had to wait for a second 'train' because the one that got to us first was too full. It was plagued for years by low ridership. It will be interesting to see what the ridership numbers are now.

[Spartan]

I dont recall 6 to 7, a quick Google from pre-vote (Nov '09) article http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps...rticle/3421122 said "five to six" miles (half of that when double tracked). Not sure what the current number is without looking it up...Urban?

Ok, I think I'm off-base on that. Selective memory, you know. I just seemed to remember 6-7 miles for some reason. Fingers crossed, whatever it is, it is some serious bang for our buck...like MAPS has always been, although those days may be over.

[Spartan]

Here's the new finalized streetcar route:


I'm going to go ahead and call this map 4-5 miles, just from parsing it together. Is this just Phase 1a, with a potential 1b also included in the $120 million? I don't know exactly how this route could be broken up into two segments, unless you divide it at the hub.

I'm going to assume that they'll just use extra funding to go as far up Walnut into Deep Deuce as they can, unless there is some reason that Walnut has been purposely left out (and others have already picked up on the glaring omission of a Walnut streetscape). Perhaps there is a tangled nightmare of utilities located under Walnut that would cost a bajillion dollars to move, very likely.

[Spartan]

I believe a route used by the voters has the best chance to create a pro-transit environment. I believe a streetcar admired by the voters has the best chance to create a pro-transit environment. I also think a route that creates riders, rather than simply creating a more attractive environment for existing riders has the best chance of success. What is most important for future transit in OKC is to get voters out of their cars. If the streetcar can make mass transit of all types, including the bus, appealing for current non-riders we will achieve something significant. To me, the best way to do that is to make it simple for current non-riders to get to places with high appeal. If I live in Mesta Park, Heritage Hills or SoSa, I can go to a game at the Ford Center, go to the park or Bricktown without having to drag out my car. If I live in Deep Deuce, I can go out to dinner in Midtown, go to a bar or go to a Dr. At St. Anthony's without getting out my car. If I'm a visitor, I can go out in Automobile Alley or Midtown without a cab or car. Park and ride would wildly expand the applicability of even the first stage route for vast numbers of people.

It's not perfect, but again, we have to work within the constraints of the given budget.

When we can move to a second stage, then making the streetcar available to existing users is an option. But, if we can create legible routes, what's wrong with taking the bus? I don't feel that having the bus as a transit option is somehow treating riders as second class citizens.

But I would also add that we need to avoid this route only serving high-income downtown housing. The thing about the areas with existing transit ridership (such as 23rd) is that these areas inject the streetcar system with a high dose of socioeconomic diversity. It's not just that these areas have proven ridership, but that they have a number of people who do not own cars for whom this system could provide access to jobs and civic amenities located downtown. We invest in downtown because we believe that's accessible to everybody, so we should prioritize improving direct connections for lower-income neighborhoods, not only to provide access to opportunities downtown, but also to stretch out economic development opportunities that will bring opportunities out to the neighborhoods as well.

You do that either going down to South Robinson (to connect to Capital Hill), or 23rd, or the east side. That said, I think we're thinking the same thing, I really do. I just see a list of neighborhoods that are exclusively high-income, and my natural reaction is to not forget about the other folks. You're going to face a backlash if you design a system that exclusively used by the highest incomes in OKC. Let the other MAPS projects (convention center) struggle with connecting to the average citizens. I believe this project has the potential to make a strong contribution to social justice as well, which we must admit, is somewhat lacking from this process. It doesn't have to be that though, and if you can change that, then those folks who envisioned MAPS3 not helping them ("MAPS for Millionaires" as the last two installments were labeled) will actually see themselves benefiting from this as well.

[Snowman]

Here's the new finalized streetcar route:


I'm going to go ahead and call this map 4-5 miles, just from parsing it together. Is this just Phase 1a, with a potential 1b also included in the $120 million? I don't know exactly how this route could be broken up into two segments, unless you divide it at the hub.

I'm going to assume that they'll just use extra funding to go as far up Walnut into Deep Deuce as they can, unless there is some reason that Walnut has been purposely left out (and others have already picked up on the glaring omission of a Walnut streetscape). Perhaps there is a tangled nightmare of utilities located under Walnut that would cost a bajillion dollars to move, very likely.

I think that was a conservative estimate since miles covered vary on a lot of decisions not yet made; some mentioned in the meeting were how it is powered, what track/bed is used and if all/some/none has overhead infrastructure. Some possible extensions to this in the agenda packet were:
- Continuing up Walnut then turning east on 4th toward OU Medical center
- Spur continuing south on Robinson to Capital Hill
- Spur off NW edge up Classen Dr.

[Just the facts]

One thing to keep in mind (and seems to be over looked often) is that after the intial phase is done and the system is expanded new cars will also be added to the system. Each new car added will increase service frequency along the backbone. If you start with a 4 mile stretch on 23rd and then build the backbone through downtown you will see a service frequency decline along 23rd. Riders using the system at that time will view that as a regression. If you start with a backbone downtown and add NW23rd it will increase service frequency downtown AND add a new route. Riders will see that as progression.

All those years of model railroading finally paid off.

[betts]

I just see a list of neighborhoods that are exclusively high-income, and my natural reaction is to not forget about the other folks. You're going to face a backlash if you design a system that exclusively used by the highest incomes in OKC. Let the other MAPS projects (convention center) struggle with connecting to the average citizens. I believe this project has the potential to make a strong contribution to social justice as well, which we must admit, is somewhat lacking from this process. It doesn't have to be that though, and if you can change that, then those folks who envisioned MAPS3 not helping them ("MAPS for Millionaires" as the last two installments were labeled) will actually see themselves benefiting from this as well.

I still think the whole problem here is thinking the streetcar needs to be all things to all people, when we need to view it as simply one small part of a mass transit system. While I think we need to look long and hard at our existing bus system and routes, they are just as important as the streetcar in terms of offering transit that doesnt require an automobile. I believe that a lot of these comments about who the streetcar should serve reflect an unconscious bias against bus transit, as if we provide effective transit, the mode shouldn't be that important. We have all sorts of things downtown that are unique and are designed as much for people making a special trip downtown as those living or working there, and until we have more money to spend on rail transit, the streetcar has to be something unique and special. That's not really any different from what has been done in other cities with their first streetcar route.

In addition, I would hesitate to call both SoSA and Deep Deuce places with the highest incomes.