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Thread: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

  1. #1

    Default Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I will be voting yes on 12-8 for Maps 3, so Downtown can get better looking and hoping it puts this city on the map more than it has gotten as of late.

    However, when it comes time to voting, I always get worried that what I hope passes, won't pass.

    I really want core-to-shore to happen, and if it looks anything like the concept art, it will be very nice looking in place of what's around there now.

    So with all that said, can anyone tell me if they really believe this will pass? With all of the opposition out there for MAPS3, does anyone feel this will be a victory for those who want MAPS3 to pass, or a failure?

    Any facts as to why anyone thinks it will pass, please brief me. I need hope.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by megax11 View Post
    So with all that said, can anyone tell me if they really believe this will pass? With all of the opposition out there for MAPS3, does anyone feel this will be a victory for those who want MAPS3 to pass, or a failure?
    I've said a number of times that notwithstanding some interesting issues, many of which could have been avoided with little effort, MAPs3 will pass, but it'll be a closer vote than in the past.

    As to all the opposition ... lots of screeching, lots of volume from a few speakers, but thus far the polls do not support the NAYS have the numbers to bring about a victory for their position, but they do appear closer than some think.

    It's not a good election for either side to think they do not need to bother going to the polls that day.

  3. Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    The original MAPS was anything but a sure thing, passing by 54% of the vote. I expect this one will be in the same percentage range but who knows which side will come out on top. I haven't heard any polls. All you or I or anyone can do is go the polls and cast your vote as you see fit. I'm a Yes vote. I have 3 yard signs up.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I don't think we will have any problems passing MAPS until the city finally screws one of them up

  5. Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    One component in this MAPS vote that hasn't been prominent in other MAPS elections is the organized opposition that can actually put boots on the ground in a get out the vote operation. Anybody in politics will tell you these elections are about GOTV. I think it will be close, but I think it will pass.

    I'll say it again, I hate being put in this position by our city leaders. This hasn't been a highlight reel for Good Government. On principle I would normally vote NO on something so vague needing so much blind faith in politicians. This should have been laid out with more specific language and without having to resort to using rhetorical trickery to "explain" that away. I trust our city leadership (for the most part) but when big dollars are involved there's always the possibility, if not probability, of mischief.

    People aren't blind, they have seen the progress with the MAPS initiatives. I have confidence it will pass.

    Despite misgivings on how it has been handled, I think it's very important to vote YES on December 8th!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I'm not very confident it will pass. I have a really bad gut feeling, but then again I'm not at ground zero so I might not know for sure. I hope it does.

    It's tough when the fire and police unions come out with everything they've got to oppose it. You know that every police officer and firefighter in OKC has been instructed to vote against it.. how many people is that? Tack that on to the Big League City vote and shave 10% off of the yes margin, and that'll be the final outcome.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    I'm not very confident it will pass. I have a really bad gut feeling, but then again I'm not at ground zero so I might not know for sure. I hope it does.

    It's tough when the fire and police unions come out with everything they've got to oppose it. You know that every police officer and firefighter in OKC has been instructed to vote against it.. how many people is that? Tack that on to the Big League City vote and shave 10% off of the yes margin, and that'll be the final outcome.
    Perhaps, but what some folks tell their handlers, and what line they actually mark on a ballot when the handler ain't standing there, can often be different (applies to both sides) All in all, we have lots of passive/aggressive types in the state, including in the metro.

    And it may fail, but I'm doubtful it will. Likewise I also doubt it'll be any kind of a major kick tail YES vote. 3-4 points max in the vote spread sounds about right, a mere squeeker for the city.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Anyone know if there is an absentee ballot form? I will be traveling for work on the 7th and 8th and need to cast my vote...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I think the police and fire unions' efforts will make an impact -- of about two percentage points. Turnout will be a factor. The polling I'm aware of seems pretty solid, even after the other side got busy.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Mayor Cornett is very popular -- more so than Kirk Humphries. The pro-MAPS ads are just starting to hit and the anti-MAPS people don't have the money to compete in the air war.

    The print ads I've seen aren't very good, but I got a pretty nice piece of direct mail at home today and saw a nice TV spot with people from various neighborhoods talking about how important MAPS is to the city.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by kbsooner View Post
    Anyone know if there is an absentee ballot form? I will be traveling for work on the 7th and 8th and need to cast my vote...
    Yes, an absentee is available but you must act quickly! Also, if you aren't already registered to vote, that deadline has passed.

    Keep OKC Moving - Vote Yes for MAPS on December 8!

    Absentee Voting
    The deadline to apply for an absentee ballot is rapidly approaching! Your county election board must receive your absentee ballot application form via mail, fax or hand-delivery (if yours is the name on the form; you may not deliver an application for someone else) by 5 PM Wednesday, Dec. 2 if you want to vote by mail. Your county election board must then receive your ballot before 7 PM on Dec. 8 to be counted. If an absentee ballot is mailed to you, you must return it by mail also. See the state election board’s page on absentee voting for more details.

    Absentee Voting

    Oklahoma County Election Board | 4201 N. Lincoln Boulevard | Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73105-5201
    Phone (405) 713-1515

  11. #11

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I hope it passes and I don't even live there.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Loudenback View Post
    The original MAPS was anything but a sure thing, passing by 54% of the vote. I expect this one will be in the same percentage range but who knows which side will come out on top. I haven't heard any polls. All you or I or anyone can do is go the polls and cast your vote as you see fit. I'm a Yes vote. I have 3 yard signs up.
    I totally agree with Doug. I think the side that motivates the most people to turn out on Dec. 8 will win the election. Mark me in the Yes column.

  13. Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Saw some "Yes" yard signs with a different design while out and about here in OKC. Look better than the others with that weird color combination.

    Vote Yes December 8th!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerguru View Post
    I think the police and fire unions' efforts will make an impact -- of about two percentage points. Turnout will be a factor. The polling I'm aware of seems pretty solid, even after the other side got busy.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Mayor Cornett is very popular -- more so than Kirk Humphries. The pro-MAPS ads are just starting to hit and the anti-MAPS people don't have the money to compete in the air war.

    The print ads I've seen aren't very good, but I got a pretty nice piece of direct mail at home today and saw a nice TV spot with people from various neighborhoods talking about how important MAPS is to the city.
    The tv ads are great, but that and expensive electronic billboards are virtually the only presence the campaign has. People haven't been too willing to put signs in their yard, or for whatever reasons (we've heard multiple accounts of dirty campaigning by the no people the signs are just disappearing. That doesn't bode too well when someone might be undecided and all they see are these 'Not this MAPS' signs appearing everywhere in the city. It gives you the false impression that the city overwhelmingly disapproves of MAPS.

    I hope you're right, that Cornett's overwhelming popularity becomes a factor. But how many people voted in that election? Not very many, and not nearly as many will vote in this election. How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession? The most terrifying prospect of all--how many people in OKC don't even care about city politics and city progress, but they're so tuned into right wing talk radio and they hear that "big govt is on the march in OKC" and without even knowing the facts they're just going to turn out en masse to oppose it?

    For those reasons I don't think MAPS 3 will pass. The fact that more people are going to be voting in this election, including a lot of people who are new to city politics and are just viewing it in a divisive national politics kind of paradigm, and there are thousands of public safety workers alone. That's going to be a big voting block, at least 10% of the vote probably. If MAPS 3 does pass, it will be even closer than MAPS 1 was.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    We put a sign in our yard and at our business but not without a little trepidation on my part. Both of our signs are on busy streets and are highly visible and I guess I am just worried about the seemingly aggressive campaign style of the NO side.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    I don't think u need to worry too much about the notthismaps people. Considering most of them are Police and Firefighters. But i guess u never know

  17. #17

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    [QUOTE=Spartan;275054] How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession?

    What would it take to get the raise myth eradicated from this thread? How about a public statement, a promulgation (if you will) that we will gladly give back our raises for more personnel. Wait, we already did that.
    What about numerous public safety employees that are not union presidents or officers posting on this very site that they could care less for money at this time, if manning is brought up to operational standards that do not fly in the face of safety? Wait, just read any thread on this site that pertains to MIII.
    Please, we all know that positions = money. For the nth time could we not simply lay to rest the assertion that this is for personal gain? Its personnel gain we're after.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    . How many of those yes votes were likely city employees (fire and police) who now want that elusive 2% raise in the middle of a recession?
    There you go spreading misinformation. If you don't know this is an out and out lie then you haven't done your research. Even the mayor has quit spreading this lie because he was called on it, finally. Try to at least back your position with facts. It takes a little longer but think of the self satisfaction.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Well let me correct myself. Your union, which you pay dues to represent you, has been making public statements about not getting the 2% raise you have gotten every year (calling it a 2% pay cut). I am sorry for making the mistake, but it wouldn't be the first time that there was a misunderstanding when a union was involved.

    As for personnel increases, that's not what your union is balking about. But I've said before, as a separate issue we should definitely be looking at public safety personnel and whether our current numbers are adequate.

    Obviously increasing numbers in any department of the city is going to have to coincide with increased revenues. We aren't going to get increased revenues without two things first happening: first we need to recapture the retail market that's been shifting to Moore, Norman, Yukon, Mustang, Edmond, and MWC. As a major US city we can do this by bringing retail back to downtown.

    Second we need to lay a foundation for continued economic development. We run the risk of economic stagnation at a time in our nation when you can't afford to be economically stagnant if we do not invest in economic development NOW. We have to keep planning for the future.

    We have to continue to evolve as a city, competing with bigger and better cities, in order to provide for the best quality of life and economic opportunities that we owe to the nation's proudest citizens. If we become complacent with our current infrastructure and amenities we will become stagnant, we will slip into the recession, our revenues will continue to decline, our retail will relocate to Edmond or Norman, the economy in Central Oklahoma will continue to move backwards, our public safety issues will multiply, we will have to cut back on budgets for everything including public safety, and we will be back to where we were in 1990.

    Nobody wants that. Keep the momentum. Vote for MAPS 3. Go OKC.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Sparticus

    You are wrong about the raise, and 2% every year is inconsistent with the truth. MIII is to be completed in 7.5 years or so. Then we can feel the economic impact. As of now, we are in a transition. A growth phase if you like. If we want to keep from slipping into recession, perhaps we should look to "now" sorts of tactics. MIII is banking on the future, and the best years of current MAPS haven't kept the pace with the payback schedules thus far. Again, who wouldn't love to have some of those amenities? Imagine the fun we could have together, me in my running shoes and you perhaps in a fashionable pair of rollerblades as we glide down aureate sidewalks paved in precious stones, but the plain hard real fact is, public safety cannot take a hit for our snowcones on lazy afternoons.

  21. Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    MGE, actually the city will feel the economic impact of MAPS III not in 7.5 years (as you stated) but in reality as soon as it passes and certainly when the first project is completed; say a year or so.

    While I feel for public safety and agree to some extent that the MAPS III was very rushed and should have been layed out better - I DO NOT think the public safety officers should have taken their position against MAPS III.

    Is there truly one public safety official who does not really want MAPS III to pass? I bet the answer is no, because it will only improve OKC - which should improve the city (and therefore the city's cash coffers). What the city does with the increased collections is another story and like this opposition should be a separate issue from MAPS III.

    Like was said, we have seen what MAPS and MAPS III (and MAPS I.5) have done for the city, MAPS III will give the city another shot in the arm right when it is needed (during the worst recession since the worst recession/1932).

    I am not a city resident, but I have visited OKC many times since becoming an expat and I KNOW you all MUST PASS MAPS III. OKC is not the type of city that could get things done with private investment alone. Not yet!

    But I think MAPS III puts OKC solidly in place with it's new peers and the convention center alone (if done right) will increase the city's profile and tax collections. The park will remove a ghetto blighted area between the city's crown jewels (the cbd districts and the river). The streetcar would connect all of downtown so that we could have a critical mass - which translates into RETAIL!!!!!!!!!!!! The finishing of the sidewalks (and lighting) would make it possible to have true transit usage and walking in this city. ...

    Those 4 projects alone, stand to move OKC to the next tier - where OKC should actually already have been. This was mentioned in the Tulsa boards, that for the longest time OKC didn't realize it's potential but JUST NOW - IS. OKC was always bigger and never should have had to 'compete' with the smaller sibling - but with incompetence; OKC did - and mostly lose in the national scene.

    Now, OKC has made HUGE steps forward and is a player, but we can NOT rest on our laurels and certainly not for the claims that the NO people are making. yes, I agree that there should have been more transparency on this - BUT the fact that there wasn't doesn't mean we shouldn;'t pass it

    Instead, the fact that there wasn't more transparency means MORE PEOPLE NEED TO BE INVOLVED WITH CITY POLITICS IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!! instead of waiting on a critical election then complaining about how it was done.

    As was said, the city leaders have proved they care about the city. And if done correct, these projects will make OKC into a true Tier II player and should spur the RETAIL projects downtown that we all want.

    Police/Fire, I feel for you - but now is NOT the time. Despite what your unions are saying, vote YES - but tackle your problems with the city at a later venue.

    For heaven's sake (DONT BECOME TULSA'S PUNK again),

    VOTE YES!!!!!!
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Spartan,
    Way to try and twist the truth. The 2% that is referred to is the cuts that ALL city departments will have to deal with starting Jan. 1 regardless of whether Maps 3 passes or fails. The memo from the city manager came out the day they announced Maps would be on the ballot again. You obviously don't have any insight as to how the negotiations process between the unions and city progress. If you have questions I would be happy to educate you along with proof from both sides. Stop spreading lies about things you have limited knowledge of......let's get back to the issue of why we shouldn't vote for This Maps.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    Those 4 projects alone, stand to move OKC to the next tier - where OKC should actually already have been. This was mentioned in the Tulsa boards, that for the longest time OKC didn't realize it's potential but JUST NOW - IS. OKC was always bigger and never should have had to 'compete' with the smaller sibling - but with incompetence; OKC did - and mostly lose in the national scene.
    Just curious, but could you show me either on the ballot or the MAPS3 proposal that says they'll actually build any one of those 4 projects?

    I don't mean a general list of things they'd -like- to build, but which ones they definately, 100%, positively will build.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Well let me correct myself. Your union, which you pay dues to represent you, has been making public statements about not getting the 2% raise you have gotten every year (calling it a 2% pay cut). I am sorry for making the mistake, but it wouldn't be the first time that there was a misunderstanding when a union was involved.

    As for personnel increases, that's not what your union is balking about. But I've said before, as a separate issue we should definitely be looking at public safety personnel and whether our current numbers are adequate.

    Obviously increasing numbers in any department of the city is going to have to coincide with increased revenues. We aren't going to get increased revenues without two things first happening: first we need to recapture the retail market that's been shifting to Moore, Norman, Yukon, Mustang, Edmond, and MWC. As a major US city we can do this by bringing retail back to downtown.

    Second we need to lay a foundation for continued economic development. We run the risk of economic stagnation at a time in our nation when you can't afford to be economically stagnant if we do not invest in economic development NOW. We have to keep planning for the future.

    We have to continue to evolve as a city, competing with bigger and better cities, in order to provide for the best quality of life and economic opportunities that we owe to the nation's proudest citizens. If we become complacent with our current infrastructure and amenities we will become stagnant, we will slip into the recession, our revenues will continue to decline, our retail will relocate to Edmond or Norman, the economy in Central Oklahoma will continue to move backwards, our public safety issues will multiply, we will have to cut back on budgets for everything including public safety, and we will be back to where we were in 1990.

    Nobody wants that. Keep the momentum. Vote for MAPS 3. Go OKC.
    Once again, please get your facts straight. You keep speaking from a position of ignorance as if it is a position of fact.
    For starters there is no 2% pay increase to be fought over. We already won that. And it wasn't 2%. More like 1.2%. And we have offered to give it back for more manning.
    Maybe what your thinking about is the 2% budget cuts that the City Manager has asked for. That would mean cutting 40 positions from the FD. The same FD that is currently running at manning levels lower than they were in 1994. With a 3% budget cut in the wings for mid year. How's that for momentum?
    The argument that increased manning should coincide with increased revenues, the manning cuts have come at times of increased revenue. So much for that argument.
    As far as this not being about staffing issues, once again, even the Mayor has stopped parroting that lie. Your welcome to keep saying it, as anyone who has kept up with this forum knows it to be false.
    No need to apologize about your misunderstanding about unions. It's fairly obvious you don't want facts to alter your preconcieved opinions about unions.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Give this man some hope. (MAPS related)

    What is unfortunate Wambo is the use of a public initiative as a lobbying tool. Being primarily a Democrat, I normally support unions. But is the lack of how to use power wisely and negotiate with our elected officials responsibly that totally turns me and many of your regular supporters off.

    It is a complete mis-use and lack of political skill that defies all logic.

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