MAPS Opposition Fliers

[tehvipir]

speaking of fliers. dont you think its funny that the week vote no for maps 3 comes out offically and yard signs are put up, the city has their "team" go around and removed illegal sings? i wonder how many of the vote no maps got removed even though they werent illegal, and if they did get removed illegally wouldnt that be a freedom of speech taken away because of opposition. I am just saying i think its funny. i dont know all the rules but i am told that as long as it is not"old" posters or signs from previous elections, nor on property without permission nor impeading traffic are they illegal. just a curious thought.

[tehvipir]

oh and i know that we got a bunch of lawyers around here going to say something like our constitiution this or that but come on you come on my property and remove my property and things arent going to be good. not threatneing i am just saying i can make a pretty big stink of right infringments and tresspassing of public servants at the request of the mayor, which of course would be hard to prove but with the grassroots epopel coming out hese days it wouldnt look good.

[kevinpate]

speaking of fliers. dont you think its funny that the week vote no for maps 3 comes out offically and yard signs are put up, the city has their "team" go around and removed illegal sings? i wonder how many of the vote no maps got removed even though they werent illegal, and if they did get removed illegally wouldnt that be a freedom of speech taken away because of opposition. I am just saying i think its funny. i dont know all the rules but i am told that as long as it is not"old" posters or signs from previous elections, nor on property without permission nor impeading traffic are they illegal. just a curious thought.

As noted in a different thread, what's funny is that it is a city govt. employee led opposition started sending out their signs, and for that matter a city govt employee led pro vote did so as well, and BOTH SIDES went out and slapped down their signs just RIGHT BEFORE a sign clean up time frame opens. A time frame set by the city, publicized by the city, a fairly standard time of the year utilized by the city and a clean up operated by the city.

How the freak did city employees, pro or con to MAPs not realize they needed to sit on their signs for a week or so? Perhaps emotions overran some common sense? I dunno.

That ebing said, of course any signs properly in place ought not be removed, pro MAPs or agin MAPs. They just ought not be bothered. The clean up should have only impacted wrongly placed signs, and of those, it should hit all improer signs, whether PRO, AGIN, or not even related to MAPs.

[hoya]

You missed the point. This JOB Growth is a joke also. Unless you're in one of a few fields that's the only jobs that will be added. They act like Major corporations are going to spring up everywhere. I'm crazy. I'm still waiting for all of the "right to work" companies to start piling in like Keating PROMISED.

Stopped, slowed, or "set back 10 years" is all a bunch of bull. Scare tactics to push people to vote YES or "this city will crumble". What a joke! I know rational, logical people don't believe that. "the sky is falling" mentality...

Oklahoma City sucks balls, dude. I've lived in other cities. They have more things to do, better schools, nicer neighborhoods, more money, better police, more beautiful scenery and architecture, better transit, and a better national reputation. I could go on and on. In this city I have a hard time finding a girl in her late 20s/early 30s who doesn't have kids. In other cities you don't. I could move back to DC and immediately make twice the money I make here.

But I want OKC to succeed. I grew up here. I have a little 4 year old nephew and a one year old niece here who think I'm awesome. I don't want to have to move to another city and not get to see them grow up just to have a decent quality of life. And yet I've seriously considered it. I consider it every day. I have a lot of friends who have left this city and gone elsewhere. By passing MAPS 3, you help keep people like that here. You need to keep college graduates in this state. The fact that you don't seem to realize it, that you don't realize that actually having a nice place to live affects whether people want to live there, means that you're either being willfully dense, or you just really don't know any better.

Let me put it this way. If you ripped out the canal, demolished the Bricktown Ballpark and the Ford Center, paved over the Myriad Gardens, turned the OKC Zoo into a junkyard, and burned Remington Park to the ground, do you think people would think this city is still as nice a place to be? Would you say, "oh, unless you drive a canal boat, play professional basketball or baseball, or are a zookeeper or jockey, you aren't affected by any of this"? Hopefully not, or you might be up for the role of Corky on the remake of "Life Goes On". These are all quality of life improvements, and while I might not make use of all of them (don't think I've ever been to Remington Park), they make the city a better place to be. MAPS 3 is about other quality of life improvements. There might be some attractive girl with big knockers who is planning on staying in the city because she's excited about the jogging trails. And that girl leaving this city would be a damn shame. And if I don't get to see her running along in a sports bra because of the anti-MAPS 3 people, well, that's too disturbing to even think about.

[betts]

I think perhaps some of the people who don't understand haven't lived in or visited any of our bigger cities in the US. If Oklahoma City is the biggest place you've ever been, then it's going to look pretty good and you're not going to understand what all the fuss is about. If you've never had the luxury of riding mass transit instead of having to drive, you don't know what a great way to get around it is. If you haven't spent a Saturday afternoon in a city park, you don't understand what it can mean to a city. If you haven't ridden a bike since you were ten, you don't understand what it's like to be able to ride anywhere you want, and not have to put your bike up on a rack to find a place to ride.

[andy157]

I think perhaps some of the people who don't understand haven't lived in or visited any of our bigger cities in the US. If Oklahoma City is the biggest place you've ever been, then it's going to look pretty good and you're not going to understand what all the fuss is about. If you've never had the luxury of riding mass transit instead of having to drive, you don't know what a great way to get around it is. If you haven't spent a Saturday afternoon in a city park, you don't understand what it can mean to a city. If you haven't ridden a bike since you were ten, you don't understand what it's like to be able to ride anywhere you want, and not have to put your bike up on a rack to find a place to ride.

Whats keeping you from riding your bike anywhere you want now? I see people doing it everyday.

[soonerguru]

Whats keeping you from riding your bike anywhere you want now? I see people doing it everyday.

Aren't you in public safety? Do you really think this city is safe for cyclists?

That's about the dumbest thing I've read on this entire thread, which totally speaks volumes.

[andy157]

Aren't you in public safety? Do you really think this city is safe for cyclists?

That's about the dumbest thing I've read on this entire thread, which totally speaks volumes.

No as a matter of fact I'm not. Can you support your claim this is a unsafe City for cyclists? How many were killed or injured in the last year? By the way even a moron knows thats not even close to the dumbest thing I've ever written. If were speaking in volumes.

[hoya]

No as a matter of fact I'm not. Can you support your claim this is a unsafe City for cyclists? How many were killed or injured in the last year? By the way even a moron knows thats not even close to the dumbest thing I've ever written. If were speaking in volumes.

I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written. He said it was the dumbest thing in this thread. This city is unsafe for cyclists, and that's why more people don't do it. The fact is, you can't bike from one part of the city to another without having to travel on fairly high speed streets. I don't exactly call biking down Reno "safe". I can't bike to work, period, even though it would only take me about half an hour, distance-wise.

[andy157]

I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written. He said it was the dumbest thing in this thread. This city is unsafe for cyclists, and that's why more people don't do it. The fact is, you can't bike from one part of the city to another without having to travel on fairly high speed streets. I don't exactly call biking down Reno "safe". I can't bike to work, period, even though it would only take me about half an hour, distance-wise.

I see, now we're going to split hairs. Glad you could point that out dude. All I can tell you is this. If you really, really want to ride your bike to work then I suggest you grow a pair, and mount up.

[betts]

I don't really care whether there are statistics saying it's unsafe for cyclists. There aren't enough of them to create any meaningful data. Your statement reminds me of one my son used to use on me when he was a kid and I caught him doing something dangerous "But I've done it a bunch of times before and I've never gotten hurt".

Riding a bicycle in this city is potentially unsafe. Riding bicycles anywhere there are not bike lanes is a risk. Even with bike lanes there's some risk but it's far less. This is not a bike friendly city. If you were wanting to ride your bike to Lake Hefner, try and think of a way you would do so safely. Try and think of how you would get to the river safely from most places. Yes, if you're fine with potentially not returning from a bike ride, one can ride anywhere in this city. If not, one pretty much has to stick to neighborhood streets.

[Larry OKC]

It’s right there in that quote. You said “some posters think”. The only person who insenuated everything would stop--or be reversed--on Dec. 9 was David Thompson.

WHAT? Please explain how saying “some posters think” is putting words in anyone’s mouth. Did I incorrectly quote you or any poster here? If you think I did, please provide. Go back and read the other threads, other posters DID post the words to the same effect. One can presume since they wrote it that they thought it before hand? If I have the time I MIGHT go back and dig them up for you. Did you take that personally?

Here is my complete post made in this thread (#34, 11-15-2009, 09:04 AM, page 2 of this thread)

THANK YOU !

I said the same thing, that some posters think that the forward momentum would suddenly stop... (didn’t know Mr. Thompson had made that statement) and we would return to at least the pre-MAPS state. Still want to know WHY they think that will happen? We STILL have “forward momentum” going on 16 years after the 1st MAPS vote passed. Devon has credited MAPS as the reason they are still here. The Devon Tower can be directly attributed to MAPS and the entire 180 street-scaping project and the extensive improvements to the Myriad Gardens, etc., as a result from that. That in turn will lead to more development EVEN IF MAPS 3 NEVER EXISTED. The only way that forward momentum is going to slow down or stop is if the projects being built now are failures. Don’t think anyone would argue that the projects “proposed” won’t be a catalyst for future development, but I agree they crossed the line with the other suggestion.

also please refer to my post #67, (11/18/09), 11:38 AM where I give the quotes/statements (and links if handy so you can verify I am not taking anything out of context or some other offense)

Don’t believe me, fine, how about Doug’s post #68, (11/18/09), 12:59 PM?

[Doug Loudenback]

You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

[Kerry]

You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

As near as I can tell - here is the issue

Group 1: Wants to pass MAPS III to improve current city life and create future opportunities for employment and recreation.

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

[Larry OKC]

You guys have me totally confused. What's going on?

Doug, to whom are you directing?

[flintysooner]

As near as I can tell - here is the issue

Group 1: Wants to pass MAPS III to improve current city life and create future opportunities for employment and recreation.

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

I agree with your Group 1 description except that I might add that many in Group 1 have various concerns and decided supporting MAPS 3 was better than the alternative.

I think your Group 2 description is unfair. It seems to me that some of the opposition express valid concerns about the ballot and/or the timing of the projects and feel it is a better choice to defeat the measure but hope a better, improved MAPS 3 effort is staged as a result of the defeat.

The police and firefighters are opposed because they want increased staffing and other issues addressed first and they are concerned that a 7.75 year sales tax program fails to address that concern.

Other reasons I've heard include just poor timing during a recession, lack of confidence in city leadership, being against all the proposed projects, being opposed to any new taxes, and just being against MAPS type projects in the first place.

[Doug Loudenback]

Doug, to whom are you directing?

You and JBrown84. I'm confused by the individual points each of you is making with the back and forth between the two of you when referencing quotes (such as was made by Larry Thompson) and/or me or comments relating thereto.

[betts]

Too much hair splitting going on. I think anyone with half a brain knows that if MAPS 3doesn't pass, it's going to affect momentum in a negative way. To precisely what speed it will slow, whether it will stop or reverse (which is hyperbole, but aren't most of us smart enough to figure out when someone is using hyperbole?) is really immaterial and unknowable. Let's just say it will affect momentum and leave it at that.

[iron76hd]

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

WRONG! Research much before you vote?

I don't doubt it's not the dumbest thing you've ever written.

WOW. What rock did you crawl out from under? Read your own stuff much?

Oklahoma City sucks balls, dude. I've lived in other cities.

I have a hard time finding a girl in her late 20s/early 30s who doesn't have kids.

By passing MAPS 3, you help keep people like that here.

Your college educated friends are desperately needing a park, walking trails and Senior Aquatic center huh?

There might be some attractive girl with big knockers who is planning on staying in the city because she's excited about the jogging trails. And that girl leaving this city would be a damn shame. And if I don't get to see her running along in a sports bra because of the anti-MAPS 3 people, well, that's too disturbing to even think about.

I should have quoted the entire post.
Feel free to move back to DC. I've been there a couple of times....You got me...that's a wonderful place to live...

[Kerry]

WRONG! Research much before you vote?

I wrote

Group 2: Wants a pay raise and guaranteed jobs while everyone else in America takes a pay cut or loses their job.

Which part was wrong? Your goal is to stop MAPS III so there can be an increase in the sales tax to pay for raises and/or guaranteed jobs in public safety isn't it. Americans are taking pay cuts and losing jobs aren't they.

on edit...

Oh wait - I see the problem now. I wrote EVERYONE ELSE in America. Your correct, I should have said MANY in Amercia. Not everyone has taken a pay cut or been laid off. Good catch.

[iron76hd]

Which part was wrong?our goal is to stop MAPS III so there can be an increase in the sales tax to pay for raises and/or guaranteed jobs in public safety isn't it.

This is a joke right? Who told you Public Safety and the City Employees just wanted raises?
Neither the Police, Fire or City Employees are wanting raises. The raise the fireman won through arbitration, they've offered not to take. Your kidding right?

They want warm able bodies to work and help answer calls. Man currently closed fire stations. Citizens should not be put on hold when they dial 911. Citizens shouldn't have to wait 2-4 hours for a Police to show up after being called. You might not mind right now as your sitting comfortably behind your computer. Stop to put gas, and have a gun thrown in your face...call 911 get put on hold...or better yet have someone start kicking in your door right now!!! and call 911 and get put on hold or wait 11 minutes for an officer to show up. That's a shame....That's not a "Big League" Police response...

[OSUFan]

As noted in a different thread, what's funny is that it is a city govt. employee led opposition started sending out their signs, and for that matter a city govt employee led pro vote did so as well, and BOTH SIDES went out and slapped down their signs just RIGHT BEFORE a sign clean up time frame opens. A time frame set by the city, publicized by the city, a fairly standard time of the year utilized by the city and a clean up operated by the city.

How the freak did city employees, pro or con to MAPs not realize they needed to sit on their signs for a week or so? Perhaps emotions overran some common sense? I dunno.

That ebing said, of course any signs properly in place ought not be removed, pro MAPs or agin MAPs. They just ought not be bothered. The clean up should have only impacted wrongly placed signs, and of those, it should hit all improer signs, whether PRO, AGIN, or not even related to MAPs.

I've yet to see any larger YES for MAPS signs out there yet. All I've seen are yard signs. I've seen a ton of larger Not this MAPS signs. To me it looks like the unions put a bunch of signs out right before the sweep and the YES campaign didn't. Anyone can go put a yard sign (yes or no) in a right away but I've yet to see any larger YES for MAPS signs.

[Kerry]

So it is just about adding more jobs to public safety?

[OKCMallen]

I see, now we're going to split hairs. Glad you could point that out dude. All I can tell you is this. If you really, really want to ride your bike to work then I suggest you grow a pair, and mount up.

As a VERY casual cyclist, I agree. I live at 50th and Western and besides neighborhood streets, I don't feel safe riding anywhere around my house.

[tehvipir]

well the signs that were taken down from no people as you call them were the yard signs. i do think that maybe osme city workers got "pressured" from above without directly telling them to commit the act. I do believe that the city workers union was going to vote no on maps with police and fire but the city "bought them out" and so they changed their minds.
no just the unions. there is a coalition that is made up of many people NOT THIS MAPS. go to www.notthismaps.com. it is more than unions, small business and state congresspeople and city council members so the unions cant take all the credit whether it passes or fails.