New info on MAPS 3

[mugofbeer]

So, my suggestion is: write every city councilperson with this suggestion. Write the mayor. Go to a city council meeting and take a chance that they won't listen, hoping that they will. Our responsibility as citizens is to do everything we can to change what we think needs changing, not just to complain. I will add my voice, but, if nothing happens, I'll still be voting "yes" because as I said, I'm willing to gamble my $40 or less a month in the hopes that I can contribute towards making my city a better place in which to live. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

It sounds like a good idea, but is it legally sound?

[Midtowner]

So, my suggestion is: write every city councilperson with this suggestion. Write the mayor. Go to a city council meeting and take a chance that they won't listen, hoping that they will. Our responsibility as citizens is to do everything we can to change what we think needs changing, not just to complain. I will add my voice, but, if nothing happens, I'll still be voting "yes" because as I said, I'm willing to gamble my $40 or less a month in the hopes that I can contribute towards making my city a better place in which to live. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

You threaten to make empty threats?

Yep, that's always effective.

[SoonerDave]

So, my suggestion is: write every city councilperson with this suggestion. Write the mayor. Go to a city council meeting and take a chance that they won't listen, hoping that they will. Our responsibility as citizens is to do everything we can to change what we think needs changing, not just to complain. I will add my voice, but, if nothing happens, I'll still be voting "yes" because as I said, I'm willing to gamble my $40 or less a month in the hopes that I can contribute towards making my city a better place in which to live. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

Okay, betts, you're on. I will, this very night, compose a letter to the council and the mayor and express my thoughts on the matter.

The whole point is that I want to do everything I can do make sure your $40 a month is spent on the things you're wanting to MAKE this city a better place. Believe it or not, we really are on the same page.

[betts]

The only way to send a message or get change is to defeat this thing.

And how are you going to separate yourself from the anti-tax for anything people, the anti-government paranoids, the I hate Oklahoma City and will vote for anything that will pull the plug on progress "no" voters? The message it will send is that people aren't willing to spend a few dollars a month to improve our city, and nothing else. There's not going to be a new MAPS vote in six months with language that makes you happy, believe me. Because our city is behind many other cities of similar or slightly larger size, we will continue to be overlooked and, given entropy, things will slide, not improve.

You think it's impossible to be a lone voice to effect change in a positive way, but are willing to do the same to support a negative position?

[betts]

Okay, betts, you're on. I will, this very night, compose a letter to the council and the mayor and express my thoughts on the matter.

The whole point is that I want to do everything I can do make sure your $40 a month is spent on the things you're wanting to MAKE this city a better place. Believe it or not, we really are on the same page.

I agree. I understand we're on the same page. I have concerns as well, but, when I weigh concerns about oversight versus concerns about our city, my concerns for the city win. That's why I said I'm willing to gamble, but I've already starting writing my letters. I will vote "yes", but I'll do everything I can up until the vote to make sure there's better oversight.

[Midtowner]

You think it's impossible to be a lone voice to effect change in a positive way, but are willing to do the same to support a negative position?

Hopefully, I'm not alone in thinking that government should be run in a minimally competent fashion.

[mugofbeer]

Seems with the other plans, the government handled them far better than "minimally competent." If the trust idea would fly legally, then that might be the way to go. If its simply a matter of appointing an independent oversight committee - appointed by someone other than the City Council, that should be sufficient too.

I don't see our city government as being controlled by the good-old-boy network like it was 20 years ago and before. I see them as being a pretty competent, responsible bunch. No, we may not agree with everything they do but in a city this large and with people of different opinions - just like on this board - its impossible to please everyone.

[LakeEffect]

Hopefully, I'm not alone in thinking that government should be run in a minimally competent fashion.

You know, as a government employee, it's tough having to read countless entries from people insinuating that we're incompetent, greedy, or otherwise. Believe it or not, many of us choose this line of work because we truly believe we're working for the people and want to help make a better community.

[Midtowner]

Seems with the other plans, the government handled them far better than "minimally competent." If the trust idea would fly legally, then that might be the way to go. If its simply a matter of appointing an independent oversight committee - appointed by someone other than the City Council, that should be sufficient too.

I don't see our city government as being controlled by the good-old-boy network like it was 20 years ago and before. I see them as being a pretty competent, responsible bunch. No, we may not agree with everything they do but in a city this large and with people of different opinions - just like on this board - its impossible to please everyone.

Oversight committees have no power to do anything. And even if they did, they wouldn't. They're political appointees with loyalties to their appointors rather than the public.

The only way to make this right would be to create a public trust and turn over 100% of the money to said trust for the enumerated projects. I'd take it a step further and require that any excess monies either go into an endowment for maintenance of the projects or some of them.

This could almost certainly be done without another vote of the people and the current ballot language could stand.

[Midtowner]

You know, as a government employee, it's tough having to read countless entries from people insinuating that we're incompetent, greedy, or otherwise. Believe it or not, many of us choose this line of work because we truly believe we're working for the people and want to help make a better community.

Unless you had a hand in drafting this piece of crap ballot measure, then I'll assume you're doing just fine at your job.

That said, there's a big 'ol difference between the political side of things and the way the 'real' municipal employees work. It ain't even close.

[gmwise]

Once again I dont trust the City Council, and we need a public trust to assure it will be done as the voters approved of.

[SoonerDave]

Okay, betts, you're on. I will, this very night, compose a letter to the council and the mayor and express my thoughts on the matter.

The whole point is that I want to do everything I can do make sure your $40 a month is spent on the things you're wanting to MAKE this city a better place. Believe it or not, we really are on the same page.

betts,

The letter has been written, with copies to the mayor and every councilmember, all signed and sealed. They just need stamps and a shove in the mailbox, which I'll do in the morning.

I am debating whether there would be any value in sending a copy to any local media types.

[gmwise]

betts,

The letter has been written, with copies to the mayor and every councilmember, all signed and sealed. They just need stamps and a shove in the mailbox, which I'll do in the morning.

I am debating whether there would be any value in sending a copy to any local media types.

I would.
Dont trust the media types to report the truth behind opposition to a MAPS3, like how they Demonized the "Railway Yard supporters".

[Larry OKC]

There's not going to be a new MAPS vote in six months with language that makes you happy, believe me.....

IF it is that important to the City that the "forward momentum" continue (they have implied that if it doesn't pass the city will essentially wither and die), they will indeed come back with another MAPS proposal. Maybe not in 6 months, but it will happen. Of course, by then they won't be able to make the misleading claim that it won't raise taxes because the Ford/NBA tax will have ended and the tax rate dropped to 7.375%

Case in point: is the City of Edmond abandoning there efforts for their new facilities because the ballot issue failed? No, because it is important to the City, they are going to try to resolve where they went wrong with the last proposal and try again.

[SoonerDave]

I would.
Dont trust the media types to report the truth behind opposition to a MAPS3, like how they Demonized the "Railway Yard supporters".

Letters have been mailed this morning...will be following up with some media members, haven't decided which ones.

BTW, for those of you that might think I engaged in some sort of rant or fringe paranoia commentary, rest assured I did not. I shared that I embrace the positive things MAPS has done for OKC, but am concerned about the weakness of the ballot measure insofar as it protects the voters to ensure their will is done. It then prescribes the trust as the solution.

-soonerdave

[soonerguru]

Letters have been mailed this morning...will be following up with some media members, haven't decided which ones.

BTW, for those of you that might think I engaged in some sort of rant or fringe paranoia commentary, rest assured I did not. I shared that I embrace the positive things MAPS has done for OKC, but am concerned about the weakness of the ballot measure insofar as it protects the voters to ensure their will is done. It then prescribes the trust as the solution.

-soonerdave

This seems like the right tone to me. I share your concerns about misappropriation, though perhaps not to the same degree.

My greater concern is that negativity will blossom and MAPS III will fail. I think it is extremely important to OKC that we pass this, now.

Can you imagine the positive press we will glean from passing this forward-thinking initiative amid a national economic downturn? What a message to send the rest of the world that OKC is on the move.

[fuzzytoad]

This seems like the right tone to me. I share your concerns about misappropriation, though perhaps not to the same degree.

My greater concern is that negativity will blossom and MAPS III will fail. I think it is extremely important to OKC that we pass this, now.

Can you imagine the positive press we will glean from passing this forward-thinking initiative amid a national economic downturn? What a message to send the rest of the world that OKC is on the move.

We need to pass MAPS to send a message??

I'm definately voting No now.

[soonerguru]

We need to pass MAPS to send a message??

I'm definately voting No now.

Say what? Surely you jest.

These are good projects for the city. The message to potential investors and to international media is just a bonus. It's a bonus, nonetheless.

Don't be so unreasonable.

[metro]

We need to pass MAPS to send a message??

I'm definately voting No now.

Wow. What a reason to vote no. Do you not realize sending a message about improving our quality of life is exactly what this city needs? Do we want to send a message to major employers, companies and other things we want in this city that we're stagnant, don't want to improve quality of life, etc. We need to Maximize the national and international publicity we've been getting as of late. We were voted "recession proof" because of the previous MAPS we voted on in a down economy. That's like a business saying, business is down, I can't afford advertising, when history has repeatedly shown that companies that advertise the most during down times are the ones who prosper most long term. Do a case study on Post vs. Kellogg cereal, better yet, they've been done:

Forbes Clips How Kellogg Won the Cereal Wars of the Great Depression

The same principal goes for cities, we need to maximize our exposure in the lean times, so it lures new business, money, etc. during all times, and explodes during the good times. The national convention of mayors will be here next year, this is a HUGE deal, there is a good chance Obama (love him or hate him) will be here. He draws international attention everywhere he goes. Think of the HUGEEEEEEEEE publicity it would send to the world if he and and Mayor Cornett were to be on the international stage next year touting the passage of MAPS 3 and how OKC WILL HAVE THE BIGGEST, and GREENEST CIRCULATOR STREETCAR system in the U.S. as well as plans for a signature downtown park and a host of other quality of life improvements. This is good as PR as you can get!!

[fuzzytoad]

lol, delusional doesn't even begin to describe the previous 2 posts

[metro]

fuzzy, are you on the Tulsa city council?

[soonerguru]

lol, delusional doesn't even begin to describe the previous 2 posts

Care to explain?

What a nonsense reply.

What's delusional about public relations? Are you suggesting all of the articles in Forbes, New York Times, NatGeo, etc. don't help the city sell itself?

If you are, you are ignorant about how business works. I doubt you would add anything other than shallow comments and insults.

Are you suggesting that city rankings and perceptions aren't relevant to economic development?

Are you suggesting that doing nothing to improve itself is a sensible strategy for economic development?

Who is delusional here?

[fuzzytoad]

I'm suggesting that passing MAPS 3 will probably have no bearing whatsoever on bringing companies into the state. MAPS didn't, MAPS For Kids didn't. We had to pay Bass Pro to come here.

Everytime MAPS comes up for a vote we're promised to get alllllll this new business in the state, all these companies will flock to Oklahoma because we're improving downtown.

It didn't work.

And despite how many of you feel, most people in the world outside of downtown OKC couldn't give a sh*t if we have "THE BIGGEST, and GREENEST CIRCULATOR STREETCAR system in the U.S.".

Microsoft isn't going to relocate here because of it. Apple isn't going to move here. Proctor and Gamble isn't going to build a business here.

If we're *really* lucky, Starbucks might reopen a store near the trolley line. Or maybe some world-renown marketing company that employs 10 whole people will move into the Devon building. Whoopty-friggen-doo.

This is Oklahoma City. it's not Paris, it's not LA. People don't sit around coffee shops in London talking about OKC and how wonderful the canal area here is.

Trying to make people believe that MAPS 3 will send a message to the world is delusional.

[soonerguru]

I'm suggesting that passing MAPS 3 will probably have no bearing whatsoever on bringing companies into the state. MAPS didn't, MAPS For Kids didn't. We had to pay Bass Pro to come here.

Everytime MAPS comes up for a vote we're promised to get alllllll this new business in the state, all these companies will flock to Oklahoma because we're improving downtown.

It didn't work.

And despite how many of you feel, most people in the world outside of downtown OKC couldn't give a sh*t if we have "THE BIGGEST, and GREENEST CIRCULATOR STREETCAR system in the U.S.".

Microsoft isn't going to relocate here because of it. Apple isn't going to move here. Proctor and Gamble isn't going to build a business here.

If we're *really* lucky, Starbucks might reopen a store near the trolley line. Or maybe some world-renown marketing company that employs 10 whole people will move into the Devon building. Whoopty-friggen-doo.

This is Oklahoma City. it's not Paris, it's not LA. People don't sit around coffee shops in London talking about OKC and how wonderful the canal area here is.

Trying to make people believe that MAPS 3 will send a message to the world is delusional.

Hyperbole much?

I don't think anyone was suggesting we'd be the topic du jour in salons on the Left Bank.

It's all or nothing for you. Clearly you don't see the relationship between MAPS I and II and the city's economic growth.

And, you know, "if we don't land a Fortune 500 company than it was a failure."

That mode of thinking is so 1980s. Economic development has less to do with luring the big fish than it does becoming an ecosystem where fish can spawn.

So, yeah, let's not bother to do anything to build a better city where more of our citizens will choose to stay, and more young people would choose to live, because, you know, we didn't land Microsoft.

Brilliant.

[gmwise]

Letters have been mailed this morning...will be following up with some media members, haven't decided which ones.

BTW, for those of you that might think I engaged in some sort of rant or fringe paranoia commentary, rest assured I did not. I shared that I embrace the positive things MAPS has done for OKC, but am concerned about the weakness of the ballot measure insofar as it protects the voters to ensure their will is done. It then prescribes the trust as the solution.

-soonerdave

i want a public trust in the ballot