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Thread: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

  1. #151

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauri101 View Post
    Aww...SkyWestOKC - sorry to hear of job loss - hope it was your choice and not someone else's!
    Now he/she can find a job in Texas. This one apparently loves Texas sooo much.

  2. #152

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    I love Oklahoma. I also like Texas. Big deal. I already am working to establish a job with a different company out here. But that can fall through like anything else can.

    Now, onto the stuff that matters. This discussion is not about me.

    Passenger numbers are down ~3% for the month of February, and around the same for the entire year to date. I am saying by the end of the year, we will be in the black again.

    I can confirm now that Orlando and Tampa will end next month -- whether or not they get picked up again next year is anyone's guess.

    Our air travel has been up from what I could tell over spring break - spring break traffic plus NCAA travel has helped our passenger numbers for March. We will see if that is enough to bring us out of the red for March 2010 YTD. The March data will be available mid-late April.

  3. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    ^Good luck on your future endeavours SkywestOKC, wish you the best.

    Sucks to hear about TPA and MCO, but really, not a shock by any means.

  4. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    I am shocked about MCO. Why didn't the city/airport/airline make the flight times better suited for OKC pax? Im sure there would be enough to fill the planes (if Omaha of all places can do it) - if the times were appropriate AND with proper marketing.

    Maybe it was stupid to do both MCO and TPA, they should have just done MCO and made the OKC departure in the mid morning.

    Hopefully this will at least be seasonal service.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  5. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    The way Froniter/Republic had the aircraft scheduled, it was originating in Omaha heading to Florida up to OKC and back to Florida and back to Omaha. Had it been reversed, we probably would have seen it perform better. Airlines tend to do this a lot though and it ends up shooting themselves in the feet. Friend of mine works for American up in Ohio and his station had a round trip to Dallas added a few years back. Instead of doing an early originator on either end, it was a mid day flight. The market, at that time, supported around 100-200 pax per day and very attractive. However, they picked a poor time slot to operate the flight. This hurt things dramatically. Granted, it didn't help they were operating the long route with an ERJ-145 weight restricted down to only 40-43 pax instead of using a CRJ-700 that wouldn't have been restricted. Loads on the flight were strong, for what they could accommodate, but the mix of time and aircraft type killed the route off pretty fast.

    Back to OKC, this brings up the argument again...can Florida work from Oklahoma. So far it hasn't. It would be great if Frontier was able to offer more flexibility with the times on the route, but we didn't get the chance. The other part, Frontier needs to do more to build the brand in OKC. More commercials and possibly add in a flight up to Milwaukee. I also would like to see a Mexican route, but that's for another time and we've been down that road already.

  6. #156

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    I checked out the tampa connection with frontiers 99 leadon.... that fare was pretty much not existant. Times were strange to fly and could get as good of deals on other lines. thus not much to base going with frontier... too bad

  7. #157

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    Back to OKC, this brings up the argument again...can Florida work from Oklahoma. So far it hasn't.
    If we are depending on air traffic to Florida only for people going to instate vacation destinations it won't work yet. The traffic isn't there and it is too seasonal. The only possibility I see that would work currently is Miami which, besides being a vacation destination provides a large connecting flight network.

  8. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by khook View Post
    I checked out the tampa connection with frontiers 99 leadon.... that fare was pretty much not existant. Times were strange to fly and could get as good of deals on other lines. thus not much to base going with frontier... too bad
    The lowest fare is always going to sell out first, so not a shock there. If it had been available all the time then things would have been even worse. And yes, the times sucked.

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    If we are depending on air traffic to Florida only for people going to instate vacation destinations it won't work yet. The traffic isn't there and it is too seasonal. The only possibility I see that would work currently is Miami which, besides being a vacation destination provides a large connecting flight network.
    Yeah I agree. I think Allegiant may be the only one to make it work because they can run it only 2-3 times a week and the majority of their revenue comes from the hotel packages, not the flying. However, it is extremely seasonal. I think Miami may work as well when you tie it into the American hub there and all the other international carriers. The problem is most of the connecting traffic may opt for Dallas if the service is offered there (which a lot isn't, but some is).

    It might be interesting to see the loads American gets on the Tulsa-Miami flight they are going to be running. Yes it is only there for aircraft repositioning/maintenance, but there might be a surprisingly high turn out for the route.

  9. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    why dont we have at least one non-stop flight to miami?

    the Tulsa-Miami flight could be restructured with a stop in OKC first?

    I think OKC needs to take better advantage of having Tulsa as American's mtc base. Surely OKC would have higher numbers than TUL and together both cities might fill a 757 aircraft at least once a week - to/from Miami.

    I think we need to become more creative in getting flights. They dont all need to start off as daily non-stops or even route-specific, but if we could augment on runs that are being made - then OKC could benefit with the flights and the airline could benefit with butts in the seats of planes on an otherwise non-revenue operation.

    The one I simply can not for the life of me understand, is Alaska Airline's not offering their OKC flights to revenue pax. Like I said, it doesn't need to be daily, maybe 1 or 2 or 3 times a week. .... ANYTHING to give OKC pax some options while putting butts in the seats of those flights. ...

    maybe the city could offer free landing rights to otherwise non-revenue flights that become revenue options - in order to encourage airlines to augment their mtc segments and include a stop at OKC AND get revenue pax into flights already coming to OKC for mtc?

    Why isn't Kraneburg and the city/chamber all over this?
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  10. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    I am shocked about MCO. Why didn't the city/airport/airline make the flight times better suited for OKC pax? Im sure there would be enough to fill the planes (if Omaha of all places can do it) - if the times were appropriate AND with proper marketing.
    Better times would have beneficial, but remember Omaha has higher passenger counts than OKC.

    That airport has a huge regional draw that ours doesn't.

  11. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    why dont we have at least one non-stop flight to miami?
    Latest date is Q3 2009, which of course isn't all that strong to begin with. Miami had 50.5 passengers per day on average. American carried 36% of the market at an average fare of $191 one way. Northwest/Delta offered the lowest fare of $142 one way but only carried 12% of the market. Looking at the prelim Q4 data, Miami wasn't over 50 passengers per day during that time. It is going to be hard for anyone to justify flying the route with those numbers. Now if Ft Lauderdale is added in, thats another 86 passengers a day, West Palm only gives 18 more. American has 31% of the FLL market, but that still only gives us right around 40 people a day. There just isn't the demand right now for AA to dedicate any resources to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    the Tulsa-Miami flight could be restructured with a stop in OKC first?
    The aircraft are going to Tulsa for maintenance, why bother making a stop in OKC first? Not only that, we've been down this road before and airlines are getting away from it. Delta for years did a ATL-TUL-OKC-SLC or SLC-TUL-OKC-ATL like rotation. Eventually it comes down to you are wasting too much fuel putting in another stop - especially with zero O&D traffic between TUL and OKC.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    I think OKC needs to take better advantage of having Tulsa as American's mtc base. Surely OKC would have higher numbers than TUL and together both cities might fill a 757 aircraft at least once a week - to/from Miami.
    The Mx base is good for TUL, not OKC. Again, there are the added costs of putting on such a short leg that it doesn't make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    I think we need to become more creative in getting flights. They dont all need to start off as daily non-stops or even route-specific, but if we could augment on runs that are being made - then OKC could benefit with the flights and the airline could benefit with butts in the seats of planes on an otherwise non-revenue operation.
    AirTran, JetBlue, and Allegiant should all be targets right now. AirTran and Allegiant have showing willingness to throw just a couple flights at a city and go from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    The one I simply can not for the life of me understand, is Alaska Airline's not offering their OKC flights to revenue pax. Like I said, it doesn't need to be daily, maybe 1 or 2 or 3 times a week. .... ANYTHING to give OKC pax some options while putting butts in the seats of those flights. ...
    Seattle should be close to be able to support nonstop service. Currently 182 passengers take the route every day. This may be one to look at.

  12. #162

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    The one thing people need to understand, and it took me a while to fully realize this. At cities like Oklahoma City, this is seen in a very big way. There are only X amount of people flying out of OKC each day. By adding flights to other cities, all you are doing is shifting your numbers. You will have lower numbers to the connection cities, in order to have the nonstop. And then people will complain about having a regional jet to a nonstop destination and an RJ to the connection city. Whereas, if you did not add the nonstop, you could have a mainline aircraft on to the connection city.

    Until our city grows even more, we will have to live with that. Do we want nonstops everywhere on RJ's, or enjoy bigger planes and take a stop between?

  13. #163

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Also, Mark Kranenburg and the OKC Trust knows better than to try and court AA onto this route. (Miami). OKC has a good track record with attracting service that works. If they begin to get over excited and talk about routes no one [airline] thinks will work -- our airport will lose credibility, and we will begin to see airlines say "Thanks but no thanks." Our United OKC-LAX service was courted by our OKC Airport team, and it is successful - in fact, going to 2x daily soon. This helps build credibility to Mark's arguments and will help airlines trust us.

  14. #164

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    OKC to Las Vegas goes to 2x daily in Aug 2010. Southwest.

  15. #165

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Some updates:

    * Trust awarded an advertising contract to ClearChannel. Advertising would be what you would normally see in airports on walls and such. I am perfectly fine with this, I hope they put some advertising in the tunnels between the garages and the terminal. The walls are too bland and it's a boring walk.

    * General Aviation terminal on the west side of Meridian Ave. is almost complete. The building itself is done, the parking lot needs to be painted, landscaping to be finished. Expected to be finished by the end of the month. AAR signed the lease, or is in the process of doing so, once AAR moves in, then the terminal will be open.

    * YMCA center is operational in Bay O.

    * Southwest met with the Trust 16FEB2010, and took a tour of the airport. Discussions went on about upgrading current service, as well as adding new destinations. How far those discussions went is beyond me, but OKC-LAS did get a bump up, as seen in the above post.

    * Terminal Expansion Phase 3 Study is expected to be completed by the end of this month. Doesn't mean dirt will be kicked up anytime soon, just the study on what services will be needed inside it so as to allow plans to go forward when the airport is ready to expand.

    That's about it....

    Trust meeting 10:30am tomorrow if anyone wants to go. It's at City Hall, Room 200.

  16. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Just noticed this in the Orlando Sentinel:
    Southwest Airlines trims: Southwest is dropping some flights to and from Orlando - OrlandoSentinel.com
    WN trying again on MCO-OKC?

  17. #167

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    No, it was pointing out that Orlando along with other cities had a schedule trim. While OKC (among others) gained flights (our LAS flight) during the most recent schedule on Southwest.

    Beginning in August, our Las Vegas schedule will be:
    OKC-LAS
    Flight Number; Departure Time; Arrival Time; Days of Week
    926;0810a;0850a;M,T,W,Th,F
    965;0655p;0735p;M,T,W,Th,F,Sun
    2318;1025a;1100a;Sat
    1351;1245p;0120p;Sat

    LAS-OKC
    Flight Number; Departure Time; Arrival Time; Days of Week
    176;0750a;1225p;M,T,W,Th,F
    1771;0605p;1040p;M,T,W,Th,F,Sun
    2160;1100a;0330p;Sat
    1980;0355p;0825p;Sat

  18. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    those are fine, and needed - but we also need new markets.

    I would assume, if there was an OKC-MIA, OKC-SFO, OKC-MDW, OKC-SEA nonstop flight at least ONCE A WEEK, we would have the numbers to justify at least a regional jet for the service - just as OKC has shown on the OKC-EWR, OKC-LAX, OKC-IAD, OKC-MSP, OKC-DTW, and OKC-BWI routes.

    And Im not buying the short haul argument, sorry. Tul is a maintenance depot for AA and Im sure it is better to make revenue on a flight you are going to run than run an empty plane. If stopping in OKC first makes this more palatable - then they should be pushing for it.

    Delta doesn't have a mtc depot in OKC or Tulsa, so Im not sure why the SLC-OKC-TUL and ATL-OKC-TUL arguments were brought up.

    Also, if an airline wanted to do such a rotation they would need to offset that with non-stop flights to (say TUL) to really make it work. I really would see this rotation as a way to 1) get flights to TUL that they don't already have 2) add flights to OKC that they don't already have and 3) add flights between OKC and TUL provided they are in the prime business travel spots (say am and pm rush hours).

    I think out of the box, and I suggest OKC get used to it. Because while OKC isn't yet an established Tier 2 business city YET, there is no reason why Omaha should be a larger pax airport. They have a larger catchment, sure - but OKC is a MUCH LARGER CITY and METRO. If OKC offered destinations and times, then Im sure the OKC/OK populous would stop driving to DFW, DAL, TUL, and even ICT to get flights and keep them at WRWA.

    Again, to me - there's no reason why OKC shouldn't be a solid 4M pax a year airport. We're not because we lose pax to other airports due to no flights or cheaper flights offered at those airports.

    This is something Kraneburg should be focusing on, instead of just adding flights to already established routes - added a flight to Vegas, DUH!!!! I will get excited when United or Alaska adds a direct and non-stop (respectively) daily or 5X weekly flight to Seattle, United adds a direct or non-stop daily flight to SFO, Southwest adds a daily nonstop to Chicago MDW, American adds a 5X or even 3X weekly flight to MIA, Delta adds a mainliner direct flight PDX-SLC-OKC-ATL and back, and United maybe boost IAD (and LAX/ORD) to an at least 3X weekly mainliner. I will fall out of my seat when Kraneburg lands US Air to Charlotte, with PHX and LAS-OKC-CLT daily or 5X weekly service.

    These are new routes we should be going after and routes which are to business cities that OKC has a presence or need to go (and would therefore probably be successful if the routes existed). Only then, can we 'rest' on our laurels somewhat and claim success in access to all of the top 30 cities coast to coast (save Boston, but hey - not much going there). And surely such a destination profile would get passengers driving to OKC (from regional cities), especially if the city and airlines marketed the routes and the airlines undercut competitors (instead of just coming in with profit ONLY intentions).

    One other thing airlines could do, is route established city pairs through OKC in order to make new OKC routes successful. For example, DEN-OKC is a well established market, as is the newly established LAX-OKC. Why not do an LAX-OKC-DEN then back mainliner routing, in addition to or maybe in reduction to some of the established service?

    This creative routing could gather passengers (turning OKC into somewhat of a small hub) particularly for vacationing/families if the price was right. Also, it would at the same time grow passenger traffic in OKC by having the routes available. It could be a good way to get mainliner service for (say) ORD-IAD, by putting OKC in the middle of one of (or a new one of) those runs: say IAD-OKC-ORD in the am and ORD-OKC-IAD at night in one leg and IAD-OKC-ORD(am) and ORD-OKC-IAD(pm) in the other leg. This would give OKC 2 daily departures to IAD and ORD, morning and night, and should almost ensure traffic with a lower price point from the hub airports since they would "connect/direct" through OKC. Surely families and lower budget might opt for this and these options should be appealing to OKC's business community; thus filling the flights.

    Again, you would still have the nonstop ORD-IAD routes, but by being creative, United could GROW OKC-ORD and OKC-IAD by sending lower cost pax twice a day through OKC.

    Pick your airport in place of ORD/IAD one coast to the other, I see it as working.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  19. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    It is nice to see WN doing the MCO-OKC run again (and I am happy about LAS-OKC and the reinstatement of the 2nd daily OKC-LAX run). dont get me wrong, I just think we should focus on adding newer pairs in addition to increased capacity in existing routes.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  20. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    those are fine, and needed - but we also need new markets.

    I would assume, if there was an OKC-MIA, OKC-SFO, OKC-MDW, OKC-SEA nonstop flight at least ONCE A WEEK, we would have the numbers to justify at least a regional jet for the service - just as OKC has shown on the OKC-EWR, OKC-LAX, OKC-IAD, OKC-MSP, OKC-DTW, and OKC-BWI routes.
    All the routes you listed, that are currently flown, are being fed into connecting hubs, so that has to be taken into account. I could probably work up the O&D share on those flights, but its pretty late. The other 4 markets you listed would all be good candidates for new service, but the market doesn't have the higher yielding O&D volume right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    And Im not buying the short haul argument, sorry. Tul is a maintenance depot for AA and Im sure it is better to make revenue on a flight you are going to run than run an empty plane. If stopping in OKC first makes this more palatable - then they should be pushing for it.

    Delta doesn't have a mtc depot in OKC or Tulsa, so Im not sure why the SLC-OKC-TUL and ATL-OKC-TUL arguments were brought up.
    Well I brought in the old Delta routes for a reason. If an airline is going to tag another city on a route, they are also going to want to see what type of revenue they can generate on it. Very rarely will airlines do tag flights anymore. From American's point of view, they probably feel they can draw OKC passengers up the turnpike anyway so there isn't any need to fly the hop. Many don't expect the TUL-MIA route to last, but its an empty plane flying now...so any additional revenue will help.

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    I think out of the box, and I suggest OKC get used to it. Because while OKC isn't yet an established Tier 2 business city YET, there is no reason why Omaha should be a larger pax airport. They have a larger catchment, sure - but OKC is a MUCH LARGER CITY and METRO. If OKC offered destinations and times, then Im sure the OKC/OK populous would stop driving to DFW, DAL, TUL, and even ICT to get flights and keep them at WRWA.

    Again, to me - there's no reason why OKC shouldn't be a solid 4M pax a year airport. We're not because we lose pax to other airports due to no flights or cheaper flights offered at those airports.
    Catchment area is king though, regardless of the metro area. Omaha is able to draw from much longer distances than OKC. OKC has to compete with TUL, Wichita, and to a point Dallas. Lawton also pulls some pax away from OKC, but not many. Omaha also has the history of providing higher levels of service. These two factors will always push OMA ahead until the population of the OKC catchment area catches up or we get a major LCC in here to grab more traffic.

    I see where you are coming from in all your points, but the reality is the current market isn't going to support it. We also need to see more people filling the seats out of here first so we can get upgrades to mainline on the routes we already have.

  21. #171

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    I understand Lawton is mostly military related passengers from what I heard, is this airport really profitable enough to stay open, or do they get a lot of government help to stay open? I just don't see the larger demographic to support the commuter ticket price tag of what 120-140 bucks a flight?

  22. #172

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    I would like to remind you, Southwest is NOT restarting OKC-MCO (Orlando). The article was comparing the fact the Orlando saw a decrease in service for the new schedule, while OKC and others saw an increase.

  23. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by z28james View Post
    I understand Lawton is mostly military related passengers from what I heard, is this airport really profitable enough to stay open, or do they get a lot of government help to stay open? I just don't see the larger demographic to support the commuter ticket price tag of what 120-140 bucks a flight?
    Well I would argue it is mostly military passengers thanks to the fact that is the largest employer in the Lawton area. Just like the new Northwest Arkansas Airport is mostly Walmart related traffic. Are the flights profitable? You'd have to work for American to know that. The airport also has other revenue streams instead of just commercial flights - well nearly every airport for that matter. As far as government help...just because government jobs in the area cause demand for traffic doesn't mean it is a direct subsidy. On the other hand however, every airport in the nation gets a subsidy of some sort from the Fed. So it is impractical to tie an airport's ability to stay open to the situation you are suggesting.

    As far as the ticket prices. If the current market supports the fares set by the airline, then so be it. If the airline is losing money, they need to raise fares. This charity mentality that some people have when it comes to the airlines' ability to charge a profitable fare is appalling. They all want cheap cheap cheap, but don't realize that your $39 air fare actually cost the airline about $150 to haul you to your destination.

  24. #174

    Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post


    If OKC offered destinations and times, then Im sure the OKC/OK populous would stop driving to DFW, DAL, TUL, and even ICT to get flights and keep them at WRWA.
    I've been in the travel business in OKC for over 20 years and check prices and schedules for customers daily. I'm all in favor of OKC getting better flight schedules that we can support but I can tell you that it's rare that I have customers wanting to leave from DFW, ICT or TUL to save money. Tulsa flights are almost always identical or very close in pricing. Dallas and Wichita have some routes that are higher and some that are lower so it's a wash. In fact I have at times had customers who wanted to leave from DFW take a flight to OKC first and then back to DFW for a connection to save money. That's an unusual situation but it has happened.

  25. Default Re: OKC/Will Rogers Air Service Discussion

    ljbab, thanks for that information - but my point was if OKC had a lower price point due to competition/availability of service, then OKC could become attractive to the regional market and siphon off some passengers from those cities. Just as has been reported that those cities have siphoned off OKC pax due to their lower price points and (to a lesser but still valid extent) to having direct air routes to markets OKC doesnt.

    Also, when I read the Orlando article, I thought it said OKC service would be reinstated; along with denver, san fran and so on.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

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