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Thread: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

  1. #1

    Default MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    I knew there were multiple MAPS 3 threads and didn't know which one to put it in so I thought it would be a good idea to create its own.

    MAPS 3 proposals almost ready for Oklahoma voters

    LIKELY PROJECTS INCLUDE PUBLIC TRANSIT, CONVENTION CENTER AND DOWNTOWN PARK
    BY BRYAN DEAN
    Published: September 14, 2009

    Voters should get their first look at the city’s MAPS 3 proposal within two weeks, Mayor Mick Cornett said.

    Oklahoma City residents likely will get to vote on the proposal in December. The proposal will include public transit improvements, a new convention center and a large downtown park, Cornett said.

    "I expect there to be more projects, but the bulk of it is going to be those three,” he said.

    "I don’t think we’re going to stray too far from what most people would consider the MAPS brand with capital projects and a tax over a specific length of time. But the city is a different place now, and I think the proposal will reflect the changes the city has made.”

    Whether those transit improvements will include better bus service, light rail, a modern streetcar or some combination of the three will be among the details city officials release at a news conference within two weeks, Cornett said. The cost of the proposal and length of the sales tax also will be announced.

    Former mayor agrees
    Former Mayor Ron Norick, who led the campaign for the original MAPS projects, said all three of the expected MAPS 3 projects make sense as a next step for downtown.

    Norick said he tried to get a rail system included in the original MAPS and sees real possibility in improved transit. He also blessed a new convention center, as the Cox Convention Center will be more than 40 years old by the time the new one would open.

    Norick said the new Interstate 40 Crosstown Expressway will leave a large open space south of downtown, and a large park will be a much better welcome to the city for visitors than empty lots.

    "The city can either go forwards or backwards, but it can’t stay still,” Norick said. "You’ve got to keep moving forward.”

    Cornett said the city council must call for a vote by Oct. 6 to get MAPS 3 on the December ballot.

    City officials began discussing a follow-up to MAPS and MAPS for Kids this year. Cornett first surveyed city residents on the Internet, but MAPS 3 was put on hold when the city got the chance to lure the NBA to town.

    Cornett has previously said Ford Center improvements would likely have been included in MAPS 3, but the entire plan wasn’t ready in time to go on the ballot last spring when the Seattle SuperSonics franchise was considering a move to Oklahoma City.

    City officials decided to put the $120 million Ford Center improvements to a vote last March, easily winning voter approval and bringing the Oklahoma City Thunder to the downtown arena.

    Economic boom
    The original Metropolitan Area Projects passed in 1993. The five-year, 1-cent sales tax and a six month extension raised more than $360 million that paid for the Ford Center, the AT&T Bricktown Ballpark, the Bricktown Canal, the Ron Norick Downtown Library and several other capital projects that sparked hundreds of millions of dollars in private investment and an economic boom in downtown.

    MAPS for KIDS passed in 2001, raising nearly $700 million to renovate or rebuild every school in the Oklahoma City School District and for capital projects at the suburban districts with schools inside city limits.

    The 1-cent Ford Center tax began Jan. 1 as the MAPS for KIDS tax expired. A December vote would allow the city to keep the sales tax rate unchanged and begin collecting money for MAPS 3 when the Ford Center tax expires in March.

    Cornett said sagging sales tax revenues have had some effect on MAPS 3 discussions but likely won’t be a problem because the tax will be collected over a number of years.

    "When you are looking at expected revenue over several years, it’s fairly predictable,” he said. "We are very mindful of doing everything we can to make sure we have enough money to do the projects at the level that the people are going to expect.”

    Given the success of MAPS and MAPS for Kids, Cornett knows those expectations are high. He said any projects included will have to have a transformative effect on the city.

    "MAPS is not about the ordinary,” Cornett said. "It’s about economic development and quality of life.”

    NewsOK

  2. #2

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Methinks this proposal may have the toughest sledding of them all....think there's a certain degree of "MAPS fatigue," if that makes sense...think there comes a point where people may want a break...not an indictment of the project, just a sense of how people might be thinking right now....

    I personally wonder if a separate issue just for a new Convention Center wouldn't have been a better idea....the notion of considerable tax monies going into (for example) a downtown park area for a very narrow segment of the broader population that will pay for it may raise some eyebrows.....just sayin'....

  3. #3

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    I haven't seen any sign of "MAPS fatigue". No one I have spoken with has indicated anything of the sort. I think it's an OKCTalk thing. Given the success of the first 2 MAPS projects, and the Ford Center vote, I think people will be happy to continue the current level of taxes so that they can see continued success. If they had passed the Ford Center tax and the NBA hadn't come to town, I think things would be different. But so far, every MAPS vote has seen a tremendous positive impact on the city.

  4. #4

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    Methinks this proposal may have the toughest sledding of them all....think there's a certain degree of "MAPS fatigue," if that makes sense...think there comes a point where people may want a break...not an indictment of the project, just a sense of how people might be thinking right now....

    I personally wonder if a separate issue just for a new Convention Center wouldn't have been a better idea....the notion of considerable tax monies going into (for example) a downtown park area for a very narrow segment of the broader population that will pay for it may raise some eyebrows.....just sayin'....
    The downtown park is questionable at best. Its main purpose seems to be to enhance property values an property qualities so that private developers can make a mint by selling overpriced condos. I'm not real excited about that. I might even vote against the park.

    I'll vote for the other two projects though.

  5. #5

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    I agree with hoya. You don't hear people saying, man that extra penny I'm paying on the dollar is killing me, I don't want this city to improve....

  6. #6

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    I agree with hoya. You don't hear people saying, man that extra penny I'm paying on the dollar is killing me, I don't want this city to improve....
    Yeah, that's always the philosophy of sales taxation - its just one more penny on the dollar - but I also hear a lot of folks who absolutely do recognize that taxes are about to expire, and they're ready for a break. The flipside is also true - if that penny is so trivial, then the city can do without it. I'm just saying, and I think TPTB would agree, that there is a waning amount of "mileage" available under the MAPS banner, particularly in these uneasy economic times.

    Does anyone know what is to become of the Myriad/Cox Convention Center if the new convention center passes? As I recall, we spent no small amount of money remodeling and expanding the north side of the Myriad just a few years ago, so I would assume we're not tearing it down.

    Midtowner, do you happen to know if the proposals will be "line-itemed" in that way such that you could selectively vote against one while supporting the other(s)? A new convention center is a pretty easy sell in my mind, but I have reservations similar to yours regarding the park. I need to see a broad integration and payment plan for a transit system, too...very little interest in extending taxes to support a downtown-centric transit system.

    I think those features will be the problems MAPS3 will have to overcome - the ballpark and the Ford Center were percieved as having tangible, city-wide benefit, but the park and transit system might need very specific tailoring to enjoy the same perception.

  7. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The downtown park is questionable at best. Its main purpose seems to be to enhance property values an property qualities so that private developers can make a mint by selling overpriced condos. I'm not real excited about that. I might even vote against the park.

    I'll vote for the other two projects though.
    I don't think this package is going to us a la carte. The first MAPS wasn't proposed that way.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  8. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by okcpulse View Post
    I don't think this package is going to us a la carte. The first MAPS wasn't proposed that way.
    This has always been the genius of MAPS: If you want one of the projects completed, you vote yes on all of them as a package deal. As long as there is at least one project that each person cares enough about, then people will vote yes.

    MAPS is definitely the best penny-on-the-dollar that I've ever spent.

  9. #9

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    If its all-or-nothing, I'll probably have to vote no because two of the three listed projects are things that benefit downtown exclusively, eg transit and park. If the good folks that want to live downtown would like those things, then perhaps something like a TIFD or kindred concepts could be considered.

  10. #10

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    I agree with you on the park, but the transit will be downtown at first, and will then expand throughout the city in different forms from streetcar to light rail to commuter rail. It just has to have local funding for the national funding to kick in.

  11. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    It is definitely debatable whether the park exclusively benefits downtown. If done properly, an iconic park can define the city. It is a gathering place for the whole city and a place that people imagine when they think of the city.

    Consider 25-acre Millennium Park in Chicago, which is often given as an example of what C2S park could be like. It was conceived of in the late 1990s, it opened in 2004, and it has already become a major defining aspect of living, visiting, and imagining Chicago.



    It remains to be seen what type of transit program they will propose for MAPS3. We may see funding for north/south commuter lines, the east west commuter line to Tinker that the City Council voted on today (they voted to pay for a share of the cost if a TIGER grant is received), or an urban streetcar that would enhance the core.

    The major problem for MAPS being downtown focused is that it is hard for most residents to see that what benefits the core benefits the entire city. On the other hand, if we had a MAPS of this sort that was NOT downtown focused, it would not work properly to drive investment.

    Think of downtown as an injection site: that's where the shot goes into the vein, but from there it spreads throughout the entire body. And we need to keep getting shots if we want to continue speeding our city's maturity.

  12. #12

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    If done properly. The size of park they are wanting is too small to have an impact on the entire city. It needs to be at least 4 times bigger. The drawings from Hargraeves and Associates makes it look like a small little park that could not host any events for the city.

    I agree, if the heart of your city is healthy, then the rest of the body of your city will be too.

  13. #13

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Why are you people acting so suprised on this??? This issue has been beaten to death and solid evidence already exists about the park and mass transit. SoonerDave and Shane, I highly recommend you read the other main threads on MAPS 3 and Mass Transit (the MTP project), and perhaps even attend the FREE MTP Mass Transit event on Thursday night at the Skirvin. These threads and meeting will keep you up to date.

    There is no city that starts mass transit out in the burbs and then later downtown, it always starts from the CORE and works its way out. We'd be stupid to put a mass transit system out on the far west end of Expressway or Memorial Rd. and then later expand it to the rest of the City. Downtown is the HEART and CENTER (even geographically for our city) of every City. When you bring guests from out of town, you don't (well maybe you do), but most people don't take them to Texas Roadhouse on Memorial Rd., they take them to DOWNTOWN, to Bricktown, Arts Museum, National Memorial, Ford Center, canal, etc. Again, MAPS IS A QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE for the City, not suburban bedroom communities. When Downtown benefits, everyone in the metro benefits whether they realize it or not.

  14. #14

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    Why are you people acting so suprised on this??? This issue has been beaten to death and solid evidence already exists about the park and mass transit. SoonerDave and Shane, I highly recommend you read the other main threads on MAPS 3 and Mass Transit (the MTP project), and perhaps even attend the FREE MTP Mass Transit event on Thursday night at the Skirvin. These threads and meeting will keep you up to date.

    There is no city that starts mass transit out in the burbs and then later downtown, it always starts from the CORE and works its way out. We'd be stupid to put a mass transit system out on the far west end of Expressway or Memorial Rd. and then later expand it to the rest of the City. Downtown is the HEART and CENTER (even geographically for our city) of every City. When you bring guests from out of town, you don't (well maybe you do), but most people don't take them to Texas Roadhouse on Memorial Rd., they take them to DOWNTOWN, to Bricktown, Arts Museum, National Memorial, Ford Center, canal, etc. Again, MAPS IS A QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE for the City, not suburban bedroom communities. When Downtown benefits, everyone in the metro benefits whether they realize it or not.
    Very well stated. This is a concept Tulsa's suburban residents fail to understand. Thank God most of our suburbanites in OKC do.

  15. #15

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by metro View Post
    Why are you people acting so suprised on this??? This issue has been beaten to death and solid evidence already exists about the park and mass transit. ...When Downtown benefits, everyone in the metro benefits whether they realize it or not.
    Metro, you're talking to someone who enthusiastically supported the original MAPS projects and is delighted to see what has sprung from them. Those projects - the ballpark, the museum, the Ford Center - are all issues that benefitted not just downtown, and not just the suburbs, but I would contend the broader view of Oklahoma.

    Now, however, we're talking about a park and a downtown-focused transit system. I understand that you start at the center of a city when contemplating mass transit, but I also understand that the core user base that will enjoy it ought to have an expectation of bearing the primary responsibility to pay for it, regardless of the details. That's why these two components have me, at best, uncertain whether I will support them.

    As far as the details go, Metro, it just isn't possible for me to attend many of those meetings, even the evening ones, due to family and other responsibilities.

    Metro, you bring a lot of good insight here in many discussions, but with all the respect I can offer you, please be cautious when it could be argued that the necessary implication of disagreement with issues like this could only arise out of ignorance. I understand the pros and cons of mass transit, and I also understand OKC's isn't the best. But I am also wary of a city-wide tax to fund it, or a park that, as Midtowner has already stated, seems to serve a very local property appreciation purpose as much or more than anything else. If there are those who want downtown to flourish as an urban living area, not just as an entertainment district, then there are myriad issues that come before putting up a park, eg the long-term retail, grocery, day-to-day stuff that's boring, but necessary. Asking the entire city to subsidize that is, to me, questionable at best, even understanding the "quality of life" issues the park aspires to accomodate.

    Blessings,
    soonerdave

  16. #16

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    If its all-or-nothing, I'll probably have to vote no because two of the three listed projects are things that benefit downtown exclusively, eg transit and park. If the good folks that want to live downtown would like those things, then perhaps something like a TIFD or kindred concepts could be considered.
    The developers who stand to directly benefit should pony up that money. Even though I office downtown, I can't in good conscience ask people to pay for things which won't benefit them. The convention center would be a boon for the whole city though. It'd be a shame if they lost this thing because they log rolled a lot of projects into one question.

  17. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    I think its funny how people think that "just because I am not going to use it means it's not going to benefit ME, so I'm going to vote against it." ME, ME, ME......

    Most people in OKC haven't gone to Bricktown Ballpark, but the park benefits everyone. Most people in OKC haven't gone on a canal boat ride, but the canal benefits everyone. Most people in OKC haven't gone to a Thunder NBA game, but the team and the improvements to the arena benefits everyone. These things are being paid for by things people purchase in OKC, not Edmond, Norman or Midwest City, but all those communities benefit by the passage of the other MAPS programs.

    1) By passing the MAPS programs, the people of OKC got away from the habit of using our tax money to give to corporations to build facilities and plants, some of which have either closed or were never built in the winning cities.

    2) OKC showed the rest of the country that we love our city and are willing to invest IN OUR CITY to improve our quality of lives, rather than giving all our money to AA, Boeing, Micron Technology or United Airlines. The city has benefitted by being the recipient of such things as additional NCAA regional events, the Big 12 tourney, numerous conventions and events, unanticipated recognition as being one of the premier rowing locales in the country. More events mean more hotel/motel tax, more sales tax revenue and more potential for outside investment.

    3) A new convention center will take advantage of the new reality that corporate events in "resort" locations such as Miami or Vegas are unnecessary boondoggles while holding conventions and events in other cities shows a more businesslike intention.

    4) Major national publications now give us positive press and show the positive outlook and support our citizens have in our city. MAPS for Kids showed we were willing to invest $ hundreds of millions in our schools and our children. People are seeing OKC with an open mind and as a good place to raise a family. We are losing our "cow town" reputation.

    5) MAPS projects will result in well over $2 billion in private development around downtown. The Devon Tower will only add to the new image that "downtown will be the place to work and live" and once the economy turns up a bit more and credit is available, the suburbs will not be the only choice for a quality life.

    Everyone in OKC benefits by the additional tax revenue OKC will receive, the additional things for visitors to do, the additional facilities and improvements the resulting hotel/motel tax revenue will bring. Investment turns over several times so its not a one time, one out thing. Understand that MAPS is an INVESTMENT. Its not putting cash in everyone's wallet, but it has improved the quality of our lives in OKC.

  18. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    As for the transit portion of Maps3.....I posted a couple of months ago about the need for all transit in the metro area to be included in any long-term transit plan. The city needs the participation of the suburban communities in order to avoid problems other cities face as they attempt start-ups and expansion of their light rail systems. My post back in July told the story of DART in the Dallas metroplex and linked to several good articles relating to the need for a spread out metro (like our own) to consolidate all transit operations and allow for a free-flow of public transport from all areas of the metro to the city center. And this can begin NOW with a revamped bus service and an all-new metro transit authority should be given the mission to drastically improve service and begin to build the trust that will allow them to competently oversee a light-rail system in the metro.

  19. #19

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    The momentum of OKC must continue! All this hard work trying to make the city a better place for it's inhabitants should not stop. A new central park in the Core to Shore would "benefit" the entire city because this would be public space and whomever wants to use the park is able to do it. This would also clear a huge swath of "ghetto" and dilapidated skid row houses and businesses and and make a clear canvass for Core to Shore to redevelop that area. Dallas just annouced they are building a 8 acre urban park in Downtown Dallas at a price of $85 million dollars. It is to be built above the Woodall Rodgers Freeway. This should be interesting?? The last thing OKC needs is to grow apathetic and rest on it's laurels and not continue to strive to be the best it is able to be.

  20. #20

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    mugofbeer

    Here's my issue, mug. The line of thinking you laid out is precisely why the original MAPS passed. Its why I supported it. Clearly, the Ford Center, the Ballpark, provide an broad, intangible benefit. I don't know that there's much of a contrary argument.

    The problem, though is the same line of thinking is being used to justify everything. I have a very tough time seeing the same kind of impact in the intangible value of OKC because downtown has a park. I have a much less difficult time in seeing the potential benefit for downtown mass transit, and the least difficulty in seeing the benefit of a convention center.

    We have to allow for the reality that some people are going to stop checking the "yes" box [I]merely because someone says "oh, its MAPS, its INVESTMENT, so it must be a good thing") (even when its written in all-caps by someone) . More people are going to need more specific persuasion than just hyperbole, eg "lets be a first class city, lets not stop the momentum, lets seize the day" etc etc etc.

    You start to realize incremental resistance to things when the projects become more granular. A downtown park is drastically more granular than a convention center. Do the park plans include set-asides for increased police patrols and security? Or is that going to come out of the city's general operating budget? How about annual maintenance? Yeah, those things aren't sexy, but they are real things to consider.

    This issue of granularity isn't lost on the MAPS folks, because I was targeted for a half-hour long survey on my reaction to how these projects were prospectively packaged; "x" amount of tax for "y" years to generate "z" dollars for "xxx" super duper thing - all cleverly worded to make me feel guilty if I didn't support it, with leading questions like "Do you support this positive investment in the future of OKC for our children" (or words to that effect), necessarily implying you hate kids AND OKC if you oppose it.

    We are in an economically volatile time, and with the very real prospect of astonishing new taxation levels from the federal government, I (and I believe many others) are very, very wary of extending taxation that is already set to expire.

  21. #21

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    MAPS
    MAPS for Kids
    MAPS for Richie Rich & His New Ball
    MAPS for Mayors
    (but hey, there's a train you can play on if you wanna)

    Work for it if ya want it, work agin it if ya don't. May the more energetic side prevail.

  22. #22

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Those of you who are arguing for a massive, citywide transit improvement are going to be impossible to please, because that kind of solution is not politically palatable right now. Not yet.

    Please rethink your positions. We need to start to build a flexible and expandable system, and we need it to succeed.

    The worst things we can do are:

    1. Nothing
    2. Something that's too big and fails

    Let's support this first-class transit element, use it, then expand it according to need and demand. It CAN happen.

    I assure you, if you vote against this modest transit improvement and MAPS III fails, we will never have a citywide transit solution. Never.

  23. #23

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    How can you guys say a downtown park won't benefit all of the city? I mean, when I think of downtown, one of the first things I think of is the Myriad Gardens. Who hasn't been to the Myriad Botanical Gardens? Think of all of the events held there? 4th of July events, the Arts Festival, Shakespere in the Park, the Crystal Bridge....all attract people from all over the city. This would just build on that. And for goodness sakes, concerning dollar amount, the downtown park will be a small fraction of the entire project. The convention center and transit will be larger chunks.

    Any beautification to downtown OKC benefits the entire city, and makes this a better place to live. I see this downtown park as being a place similar to the Myriad Gardens, where people from "the entire" city come for events.

  24. #24

    Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    and with the very real prospect of astonishing new taxation levels from the federal government
    This isn't supported by fact. This is the kind of crap that Glenn Beck is peddling. There are no "astonishing" new increases planned.

    Get a grip.

  25. Default Re: MAPS 3 proposal almost ready...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    mugofbeer

    Here's my issue, mug. The line of thinking you laid out is precisely why the original MAPS passed. Its why I supported it. Clearly, the Ford Center, the Ballpark, provide an broad, intangible benefit. I don't know that there's much of a contrary argument.

    The problem, though is the same line of thinking is being used to justify everything. I have a very tough time seeing the same kind of impact in the intangible value of OKC because downtown has a park. I have a much less difficult time in seeing the potential benefit for downtown mass transit, and the least difficulty in seeing the benefit of a convention center.
    The point I was trying to convey is that a lot of people have real trouble trying to understand the benefits of these programs because they say "they won't use it so why should they vote for it?" I am trying to convey the idea that MAPS is a long-term investment. The benefits to OKC on the other MAPS projects were, luckily, pretty immediate - so there was some gratification that came from them. I have seen comments on the DOK site and have heard people actually say words to the effect that MAPS didn't put money in their pockets or get them a better job so they don't see the good MAPS did. These MAPS projects will be LONG TERM investments and won't see great return for several years - kind of like the money used to dam up the river. 20 years from now, everyone will laud the foresight OKC voters had rather than criticize because we kind of jumped the gun and allowed people to swim in it.


    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    We have to allow for the reality that some people are going to stop checking the "yes" box [I]merely because someone says "oh, its MAPS, its INVESTMENT, so it must be a good thing") (even when its written in all-caps by someone) .

    You start to realize incremental resistance to things when the projects become more granular. A downtown park is drastically more granular than a convention center. Do the park plans include set-asides for increased police patrols and security? Or is that going to come out of the city's general operating budget? How about annual maintenance? Yeah, those things aren't sexy, but they are real things to consider.
    I too think December is a bit too soon. I would rather they shoot for next spring or summer to let the economy improve some. The questions you ask are valid and the city should have to answer them before a vote. No one will use a park if people don't think its safe. The park is simply a quality-of-life issue. Its a central focal point for OKC. It has the potential, if done right, if tied directly into the river park system, if proper development is encouraged around it, to be OKC's "Gateway Arch" or "Seattle Observation Tower." We took the river bottom and turned it into a jewel.

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    This issue of granularity isn't lost on the MAPS folks, because I was targeted for a half-hour long survey on my reaction to how these projects were prospectively packaged; "x" amount of tax for "y" years to generate "z" dollars for "xxx" super duper thing - all cleverly worded to make me feel guilty if I didn't support it, with leading questions like "Do you support this positive investment in the future of OKC for our children" (or words to that effect), necessarily implying you hate kids AND OKC if you oppose it.
    I don't think granularity had anything to do with it. I think putting a positive spin on it was their intention. Why put anything in that gives the air of doubt?

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerDave View Post
    We are in an economically volatile time, and with the very real prospect of astonishing new taxation levels from the federal government, I (and I believe many others) are very, very wary of extending taxation that is already set to expire.
    100% agreed but the $20 or so this will cost every taxpayer in OKC isn't going to make or break anyone. As I said above, I would rather see them put the vote off until next year rather than this year. People are very concerned about the economy, concerned about what the deficits are going to do to inflation and concerned about the destruction of their health care. They may be too concerned to vote + on MAPS 3 unless the city does a magnificent sales job.

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