Brass Tacks About Downtown Living

[MikeOKC]

I know there are other downtown living threads. However, a vibrant city forum should show multiple threads on the topic, as all questions aren't general.

My scenario is this: I live part time in Plano and part time in Oklahoma City. We decided to look at downtown OKC after a trip to Kansas City to look at their downtown/midtown offerings. We are prepared to buy a small, emphasis again, small downtown condo. I have $110,000.00 cash ready to drop. There is Nothing. Zip. Nada in downtown OKC. In downtown Kansas City, near numerous amenities, it's a matter of which do we pick? But we have family and strong ties to OKC and we wanted the urban lifestyle here, even if it's not as developed and vibrant. After two days of looking around and talking, the only thing that comes close is something for $65,000 way over on Classen. It's that Condo that looks completely out of place for the area and looks like a ski lodge in New Mexico, I can't remember the name.

What is going on when you can't find a studio condo or a very small one bedroom for a hundred grand in downtown Oklahoma City? It's not that they're not there, or close to being there, they're available at absurd prices in a downtown area with almost ZERO amenities (beyond the arts, theater, culture, etc.).

Where is a developer who could buy one of the smaller highrise buildings, make them studio - one bedroom sized (like what we saw tons of in KC) sell them for One Hundred Grand and make out like a bandit?

Instead, the real estate agent basically said as much, they are stupidly looking past young people and marketing at people who are 50+ and in his words, "It's hard to build an urban core neighborhood with those demographics." He was fully aware of what's available in other cities with the small "starter condos" that get people moving and living downtown and said "Oklahoma City is missing out by looking past the future and focusing on what's in it as "get rich quick" and that's marketing to people who buy even as "second homes!" Second homes? He said that there were/are a few in one particular place, but they are so small as to be laughable and as a matter of principle he didn't dare show them for other reasons as well. ???

I'm really just kind of blown away at what's in our pockets, ready to buy, and Oklahoma City, which must think it's Madison Avenue West, when in reality, there's less to bring a person downtown than other similar cities, has so little to offer except at very high prices. How can other cities manage these "starter condos" to bring a critical mass downtown manage to do it, and this city cannot? I'm just speechless after a full-day of looking at real estate.

So my question, does anyone know of a developer who is planning anything like I described above? Because, right now, downtown Oklahoma City is locking its future out; and I'm sure there's others, like us, who will move right along. I-35 holds many an attractive city and OKC prices downtown are just absurd.

By the way, when I called a friend in Denver in real estate to bitch and moan, I said, "And you see OKC on all these affordable lists!" He laughed and reminded me we've always been on those lists, even pre-maps, pre-Renaissance, whatever, because well, draw your own conclusion.

Sorry for the negative vibes, I'm just sad and disgruntled.

[Steve]

There is another option: Classen Glenn condos. They're in an area of MidTown that is on cusp but has its share of problems (you've seen it referred to as the Cottage District or SoSA). The condos feature an innovative award-winning design, but they include a mix of originals that had some finish problems when the 80s bust hit, and those who had buyers who fixed up such problems. Either way, from what I've heard, this may be the last good buy downtown.
On another note: I've asked this of another poster here as well. I want to do a story with people like yourself and get some answers. Please email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.

[Pete]

915 Nw 7Th 203, Oklahoma City, OK, 73102 - MLS ID#379264 - Condo/Townhome/Row Home/Co-Op real estate - REALTOR.com®

[Steve]

Thanks for saving me the search Pete!

[MikeOKC]

Thank for the link Pete, but that's the "ski lodge" I was talking about. It's at the corner of 7th and Classen. For us, that's not downtown. But I appreciate your help.

[okcpulse]

I share your frustrations and I agree about the steep prices, MikeOKC. But here's my problem. What amenities are missing? What needs to be there?

Information is very valuable, especially in these cases. It's okay to vent, but your wasting your breath on OKC if you're not sharing what amenities are missing.

[Steve]

I've got to keep on wondering if Rick Dowell doesn't have a gold mine on his hands with the old Midland Mortgage/Kermac Building. He got it at a cheap price, and it sure does seem as if he could turn it into condos at these terms and still make a killing. Trick is, buyers would have to accept using nearby public parking ...

[Pete]

Here some cheaper options where you may be able to negotiate down:

Unit 205

Unit 101

The Lofts at Maywood Park

[PLANSIT]

The Leslie

[Steve]

Good point Plansit. And before last summer, there would have been no delay on The Leslie. It needs a higher minimum buyers signed up before construction can begin....

[bluedogok]

It's pretty much the same thing here in Austin, the efficiency sized ones were priced about 180,000 and the sky's the limit from there. From what I can gather on the Austin forums is the bulk of them are in the 260,000-340,000 range. That doesn't include the new tallest under construction (The Austonian) which starts at around 500,000 (1,200 sf) and goes up to the several millions. It seems that downtown developers only care about the high end, there needs to be much more of a spread instead you are just creating vertical gated communities.

[dismayed]

We need more of everything downtown. We need neighborhood deli's and meat markets, grocery stores, bakery's, donut/pastery shops, high end dining options, more ethnic dining options, art museums, trinket shops, but most of all we need more activities besides drinking and eating. Red Pin and the movie theater are great starts, but we shouldn't stop there.

To me, even though there is far less there, Midtown strikes me as a place having a lot more promise (eventually) than Bricktown. Midtown just reminds me of other cities I have been to. I'm not sure why.

Also I think Mike makes a fair point about demographics... I really have no idea who downtown OKC is trying to attract.

[MikeOKC]

I share your frustrations and I agree about the steep prices, MikeOKC. But here's my problem. What amenities are missing? What needs to be there?

Information is very valuable, especially in these cases. It's okay to vent, but your wasting your breath on OKC if you're not sharing what amenities are missing.

That's a very fair question, okcpulse. Here's just a few examples comparing to what we just looked at in KC.

Walgreen's - There's 2 downtown. One down from one of the Marriott's on Holmes and another the other direction on Broadway.

CVS: There's one right below one of the condos we look at at 912 Main Street and another on the other side of downtown on Independence.

There's several grocery stores: One of the biggest being a Hy-Vee on State Line. Oh, and a Whole Foods on Main Street.

Many restaurants that were open late, some chains, but many nice little independent restaurants, including a delicious Italian place we ate at on Troost.

Trolleys running back and forth from Power & Light District which is Bricktown on steroids. Many other dining and nightlife options there.

There were two bookstores. One was a used.mixed and the other was a Walden's Express Bookstore.

There was a Family Dollar and a Dollar General both. I know they're not Neiman Marcus but are enormously convenient for little things that you just need at a moment's notice.

I'm sure I'll think of more, but even the above stores gives you a feeling of not having to drive out of the urban core to get basic things at reasonable prices. Having the drug stores, (especially Walgreen's) is nice when if you take away the pharmacy, they are basically like old TG&Y stores, lots of variety merchandise. You have basically four major pharmacies and two right in the city core around all the living and hotels.

I hope that gives you some idea of what I meant by amenities. It was actually a very good question and I should have elaborated in my first post.

[wsucougz]

The Harvey Lofts in Midtown were near your price range. I'm pretty sure they sold out, but might hit the market from time-to-time. Not exactly downtown, but close.

[Steve]

And here's what others are saying:
Brown's Bakery and Prairie Thunder Baking Co: We need more customers and people who will come week after week, not just every once in a while.
Sage: We need more and more customers to clean off our grocery shelves.
Nonnas, Mickey Mantle's, The Mantle, Tratoria il Centro, Red Prime (Tuck correct me if I'm wrong): We need people to quit going to the national chains and make our upscale eateries their No. 1 pick every time they want to go out for a great evening.
The ethnic restaurants (The Olive Branch Cafe, Thai Kitchen) want more adventuresome folks to come and try out their great food.
And the museums - yeah, they want all of you to quit saying how much you love them and plan to visit again, and instead actually come in for each new exhibit. And the shops - the Painted Door and Oklahoma's Red Dirt Emporium - they need more of you to make them a first stop for buying gifts for birthdays, holidays, etc.
It's a two-way street dismayed. And if you want more of all this, forgive me for asking, and I hope you can make me eat crow ... but how many of these places have you visited in the past six months?

[MikeOKC]

It's pretty much the same thing here in Austin, the efficiency sized ones were priced about 180,000 and the sky's the limit from there. From what I can gather on the Austin forums is the bulk of them are in the 260,000-340,000 range. That doesn't include the new tallest under construction (The Austonian) which starts at around 500,000 (1,200 sf) and goes up to the several millions. It seems that downtown developers only care about the high end, there needs to be much more of a spread instead you are just creating vertical gated communities.

I've heard that bluedog. The comparison ends though when we think about how far along Austin's downtown is compared to Oklahoma City. One could argue the downtown can command those prices because a lot of amenities are there and the rooftops (chicken or the egg thing) isn't an issue so much as Oklahoma City. Here, we need people downtown and not just a few people with high incomes, but a lot of rooftops that build the critical mass to attract things we need. I understand the chicken or the egg problem, but that's just an argument to get people moving downtown!

Great city, Austin, by the way. I love it. I have a cousin who lives in Round Rock and wants to move closer in. I know traffic can be a bear.

[stlokc]

MikeOKC-I agree with everything you have said but I also think Steve has made some excellent points. Too many people in OKC think of downtown as a field trip, maybe they go to a Thunder game a couple of times a year, the symphony once, Bricktown when they have visitors in town, and they think that is sufficient. A high percentage of OKC residents never go downtown. I do think it has something to do with how sprawling OKC is - a huge percentage of the population lives 20, 30, 45 minutes from downtown and they don't work down there because their companies abandoned it a long time ago. I am familiar with KC (I live in STL) and know that the central part of that city is just much more dense. I have had urban developer friends (in STL) tell me that high-end condos are generally the first residential options built when a downtown area starts to gentrify. Perhaps the national recession clipped OKC's wings before the second wave got going, in which case there may be some more options in the coming years. I know that doesn't help you in the here and now.

[bluedogok]

Austin has the same issues, there is a CVS and the Whole Foods HQ store but other than that there is restaurants and clubs, no "real" shopping, that is the gripe of many who want an HEB downtown. Many of the boutique stores that opened a few years ago have closed up. There are more than OKC but it also got a big boost by the (Silicon Valley) Californians moving here here who thought 1,100sf condos at 250-300 sf were a bargain. Most of the Texas "natives" that I know think the pricing is ridiculous even though they would like to live downtown. Right now it would be hard to live in downtown Austin without a vehicle.

The "chicken & egg" argument will always be around and it always seems to end up in a standstill. I still wish for the smaller, local shops to move in and do well, I really like that aspect of NYC and Boston, I still think a concentration of stores to be co-located and marketed like the Chelsea Market would help raise awareness of the local stores. With them kind of scattered around I think they tend to get lost. It seems everyone focuses on a national name to signal the "beginning" much like what Spaghetti Warehouse dod for Bricktown, but that was their model.

Most everyday living stores (like grocery & drug stores) wait until things are established and demographic patterns are set. If people "wait" they will never come. I went through the architect/developer seminar at Walgreens where they went into great detail about demographics and store locations, it was insightful. CVS has their location criteria online. People are going to have to move down there to get the retail back into downtown, that is just a fact of life in most places outside the major cities. It is just part of rebuilding the core.

[soonerguru]

I know there are other downtown living threads. However, a vibrant city forum should show multiple threads on the topic, as all questions aren't general.

My scenario is this: I live part time in Plano and part time in Oklahoma City. We decided to look at downtown OKC after a trip to Kansas City to look at their downtown/midtown offerings. We are prepared to buy a small, emphasis again, small downtown condo. I have $110,000.00 cash ready to drop. There is Nothing. Zip. Nada in downtown OKC. In downtown Kansas City, near numerous amenities, it's a matter of which do we pick? But we have family and strong ties to OKC and we wanted the urban lifestyle here, even if it's not as developed and vibrant. After two days of looking around and talking, the only thing that comes close is something for $65,000 way over on Classen. It's that Condo that looks completely out of place for the area and looks like a ski lodge in New Mexico, I can't remember the name.

What is going on when you can't find a studio condo or a very small one bedroom for a hundred grand in downtown Oklahoma City? It's not that they're not there, or close to being there, they're available at absurd prices in a downtown area with almost ZERO amenities (beyond the arts, theater, culture, etc.).

Where is a developer who could buy one of the smaller highrise buildings, make them studio - one bedroom sized (like what we saw tons of in KC) sell them for One Hundred Grand and make out like a bandit?

Instead, the real estate agent basically said as much, they are stupidly looking past young people and marketing at people who are 50+ and in his words, "It's hard to build an urban core neighborhood with those demographics." He was fully aware of what's available in other cities with the small "starter condos" that get people moving and living downtown and said "Oklahoma City is missing out by looking past the future and focusing on what's in it as "get rich quick" and that's marketing to people who buy even as "second homes!" Second homes? He said that there were/are a few in one particular place, but they are so small as to be laughable and as a matter of principle he didn't dare show them for other reasons as well. ???

I'm really just kind of blown away at what's in our pockets, ready to buy, and Oklahoma City, which must think it's Madison Avenue West, when in reality, there's less to bring a person downtown than other similar cities, has so little to offer except at very high prices. How can other cities manage these "starter condos" to bring a critical mass downtown manage to do it, and this city cannot? I'm just speechless after a full-day of looking at real estate.

So my question, does anyone know of a developer who is planning anything like I described above? Because, right now, downtown Oklahoma City is locking its future out; and I'm sure there's others, like us, who will move right along. I-35 holds many an attractive city and OKC prices downtown are just absurd.

By the way, when I called a friend in Denver in real estate to bitch and moan, I said, "And you see OKC on all these affordable lists!" He laughed and reminded me we've always been on those lists, even pre-maps, pre-Renaissance, whatever, because well, draw your own conclusion.

Sorry for the negative vibes, I'm just sad and disgruntled.

Not to be a pill, but this is the way things always work in this city. Always. There are a handful of developers that run the town. Usually, OKC misses the boat on forward-moving trends due to simple stupidity and greed.

What's weird is that we screw stuff up even when we know what we need to do. We just can't execute.

I'm beginning to think the positive improvement our city has witnessed the last few years is the result of simple dumb luck.

[Steve]

No, no, no...
I wrote about all this two years ago. Here's what they were thinking:

Why downtown condos cost $250,000

By Steve Lackmeyer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Edition: CITY, Section: BUSINESS, Page 4B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the past two years, the question has lingered among those watching the emergence of housing in downtown Oklahoma City: "Why are so many of the new units priced at $250,000 and up?

Such pricing left a lot of young urban professionals who rent downtown frustrated. They could afford to jump from a $750 a month rental payment to a $1,000 condominium payment. But $1,000 a month doesn't get you past $200,000 without a hefty down payment.


It's not as if downtown developers haven't known all along about this pent-up demand. While they might make more money on a half-million-dollar condo, they would be assured a quick sale with units averaging $150,000. Yet in almost every major downtown development announced to date, the prices continue to hover at $350,000. The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, recently given a choice between a mixed-use development of lower-price condos and apartments versus high-price residential towers for MidTown, went with the upscale product.


Credit Brett Hamm, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., for offering an explanation that sheds light on the question of high-price housing.


The slant toward higher-price housing isn't by coincidence — it is a grand conspiracy. Well, that's not exactly how Hamm worded it. But here's his take: you have to start somewhere. You can start with expensive housing in an area and then eventually add lower-price choices to the mix. But you can't start developing an area by building a lot of lower-price housing and then hope to add more expensive units later.


Downtown housing really was a blank slate as late as 2000. It was then that a study by Houston-based CDS Market Research reported 6,000 people desired to live in downtown Oklahoma City but their interests were thwarted by a lack of available housing. That was the match that lit the fuse.


Much of the development involves land controlled by the Urban Renewal Authority. The Hill, Block 42, The Centennial and now Overholser Greens all are Urban Renewal projects, all involving products generally priced north of $200,000. Also priced higher than $200,000, but developed privately, are the Brownstones at Maywood Park. On the other side of this equation are the Central Avenue Villas, the Harvey Lofts and the just announced Lofts at Maywood Park as developments offering at least half of their units below $200,000. But the number of higher-price units far out-number the ones that will be sought after by all those aspiring homeowners living in the Deep Deuce apartments.


And that's just fine with Hamm. One of the often-told rules of buying a home is to avoid the highest-price house on the block. Take that wisdom downtown and you can see why it's so important to get the high-end housing under way. You don't want to buy a $400,000 house surrounded by $150,000 homes. But who doesn't want to buy a $150,000 house surrounded by $400,000 homes?


Of course, the next question is whether all of this expensive housing downtown will sell. The results aren't quite in yet, but with The Centennial a virtual sell-out and half the units sold at Block 42, the grand conspiracy is far from a failure.

[soonerguru]

There is another option: Classen Glenn condos. They're in an area of MidTown that is on cusp but has its share of problems (you've seen it referred to as the Cottage District or SoSA). The condos feature an innovative award-winning design, but they include a mix of originals that had some finish problems when the 80s bust hit, and those who had buyers who fixed up such problems. Either way, from what I've heard, this may be the last good buy downtown.
On another note: I've asked this of another poster here as well. I want to do a story with people like yourself and get some answers. Please email me at slackmeyer@oklahoman.com.

Steve,

No offense, but the original poster refers to them in his thread, and he clearly hates them, saying they look out of place, are "way over on Classen," and look like a New Mexico ski condo.

[soonerguru]

It's pretty much the same thing here in Austin, the efficiency sized ones were priced about 180,000 and the sky's the limit from there. From what I can gather on the Austin forums is the bulk of them are in the 260,000-340,000 range. That doesn't include the new tallest under construction (The Austonian) which starts at around 500,000 (1,200 sf) and goes up to the several millions. It seems that downtown developers only care about the high end, there needs to be much more of a spread instead you are just creating vertical gated communities.

Bluedog, I realize those prices are outrageous, but at least downtown Austin offers a lot of cultural, dining, and even some shopping opportunities. At least there's a large market there for that kind of housing.

That said, the people who have been drawn to live in those pricey condos provide virtually zero street life. I was shocked how quiet it was in the 'hood beneath that massive condo tower.

[Steve]

Message received Sooner and this became apparent in a follow-up post. I didn't realize he was referring to Classen Glenn. I've never seen ski lifts in New Mexico.

[soonerguru]

No, no, no...
I wrote about all this two years ago. Here's what they were thinking:

Why downtown condos cost $250,000

By Steve Lackmeyer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Edition: CITY, Section: BUSINESS, Page 4B

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the past two years, the question has lingered among those watching the emergence of housing in downtown Oklahoma City: "Why are so many of the new units priced at $250,000 and up?

Such pricing left a lot of young urban professionals who rent downtown frustrated. They could afford to jump from a $750 a month rental payment to a $1,000 condominium payment. But $1,000 a month doesn't get you past $200,000 without a hefty down payment.


It's not as if downtown developers haven't known all along about this pent-up demand. While they might make more money on a half-million-dollar condo, they would be assured a quick sale with units averaging $150,000. Yet in almost every major downtown development announced to date, the prices continue to hover at $350,000. The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority, recently given a choice between a mixed-use development of lower-price condos and apartments versus high-price residential towers for MidTown, went with the upscale product.


Credit Brett Hamm, president of Downtown Oklahoma City Inc., for offering an explanation that sheds light on the question of high-price housing.


The slant toward higher-price housing isn't by coincidence — it is a grand conspiracy. Well, that's not exactly how Hamm worded it. But here's his take: you have to start somewhere. You can start with expensive housing in an area and then eventually add lower-price choices to the mix. But you can't start developing an area by building a lot of lower-price housing and then hope to add more expensive units later.


Downtown housing really was a blank slate as late as 2000. It was then that a study by Houston-based CDS Market Research reported 6,000 people desired to live in downtown Oklahoma City but their interests were thwarted by a lack of available housing. That was the match that lit the fuse.


Much of the development involves land controlled by the Urban Renewal Authority. The Hill, Block 42, The Centennial and now Overholser Greens all are Urban Renewal projects, all involving products generally priced north of $200,000. Also priced higher than $200,000, but developed privately, are the Brownstones at Maywood Park. On the other side of this equation are the Central Avenue Villas, the Harvey Lofts and the just announced Lofts at Maywood Park as developments offering at least half of their units below $200,000. But the number of higher-price units far out-number the ones that will be sought after by all those aspiring homeowners living in the Deep Deuce apartments.


And that's just fine with Hamm. One of the often-told rules of buying a home is to avoid the highest-price house on the block. Take that wisdom downtown and you can see why it's so important to get the high-end housing under way. You don't want to buy a $400,000 house surrounded by $150,000 homes. But who doesn't want to buy a $150,000 house surrounded by $400,000 homes?


Of course, the next question is whether all of this expensive housing downtown will sell. The results aren't quite in yet, but with The Centennial a virtual sell-out and half the units sold at Block 42, the grand conspiracy is far from a failure.

Steve,

Hamm, hardly an expert on building great downtown residential neighborhoods, provided this information years ago. Things have changed since then.

This development strategy appears to be failing. Why?

Perhaps there are only so many "second homes" folks, or "empty nesters" in Edmond, willing to overpay for real estate.

The pricing of these pads is sheer fiction. It's not grounded in reality. Anyone who would pay rack rate for, say, Maywood Park or The Hill, obviously has more money than brains.

Our city leaders have moved too slowly on this, and speed kills. We are YEARS away from developing the critical mass necessary for a basic downtown neighborhood. And this process is prolonging it, stupidly. Why not address the largest potential market of buyers now?

Just think, if they had teed up more mid-price options, all of these young professionals could be buying them with the $8000 new buyer stimulus credit. This is a stupid lost opportunity. Shall we tell it like it is?

And, finally, a question: has The Hill managed to sell a single unit yet?

Urban Renewal has proven itself to be a ruinous cancer. Every move they make turns to **** before our eyes.

[khook]

I lived at Classen glen many years ago. The might sell for what they orginally sold for.... Might being the operative word here. Yes they are dated back to the eighties which is when they were built. But I do agee that if SOSA of Midtown gets a view more redeveloped properties in place this could become a hot area. Timing is everything.