OKC mass transit announcement!!

[Tom Elmore]

Yeah, I go to the Seattle Times for all my "transportation analysis." Or to the highly respected -- by highway lobby people -- OKC "Fixed Guideway Study."

Fixed?

Yep. It was fixed, alright -- from the very beginning. I told them at their first "public meeting," on a Presidents Day holiday at the Norick Library with more bureaucrats and presenters present than public, what their "study" would find. We don't need rail of any kind for a long, long time.

It was quite reminiscent of all that "elaborate consensus building" ODOT did in its "public input process" for the plan to destroy the Union Station rail yard with an unnecessary highway. Only I can't find anybody who actually wanted ODOT's "solution."

Who was, at least ostensibly, behind the "Fixed Guideway Study?" COTPA, Carter Burgess Engineers and Saxum Communications.

The senior-most individual of long standing at COTPA by then was their Oklahoma Transit Association XD and chief lobbyist who also serves as XD for Oklahoma Good Roads and Streets. Who are they? Neal McCaleb and associates.

The world website of Carter Burgess extensively lauded Dallas, Denver and Washington, DC for intelligent preservation and reuse of their historic Union Stations as modern transit hubs. But in OKC, home of the West's last unused Union Station boasting all original yard space, of which envy has been expressed by transit leaders in Dallas and Denver, Carter Burgess said "saving this Union Station is not in our mandate." Where does Carter Burgess get most of its business in Oklahoma? Likely, ODOT. Who runs ODOT? Ostensibly, Gary Ridley, hand picked replacement of -- Neal McCaleb.

And Saxum Communications? Just happened, at the time it was scattering "public input meetings" out into small venues at odd times all over the metro, to be running the State Question 723 campaign for "Oklahomans for Safe Bridges and Roads." Who are they? Neal McCaleb and associates.

Is the Fixed Guideway Study worth the paper it's written on?

Actually, it cost the taxpayers about $800,000.

[BDP]

I leave from roughly danforth and broadway every morning at 7:45-8 and get to the federal building between 9 and 9:45.

Are you getting held up in Edmond? If the freeways are clear, it shouldn't take you that long. Especially after the hundreds of millions of dollars we have spent on that freeway corridor recently. It has been my experience though that Edmond is actually very congested for its size. It's kind of designed that way. I am sure if you drove down broadway, that would take awhile. So, you probably go out to I-35 and get held up at the I-35 / I-235 exchange.

I am curious though, how long do you think it should take? That is quite a distance, actually, that includes either driving through a city that was designed to put all of its north/south traffic essentially on one or two roads roads and/or navigating a major freeway interchange at commute times. I used to commute about half that distance in LA and it would take 1-2 hours during the commute. It would take about 20 minutes outside of commute times. Then again, it probably takes 20 minutes just to drive from Danforth to Memorial on Broadway.

I see what you are saying that the Edmond commute, especially the North Edmond commute, takes a while from an Oklahoma City perspective. But we have spent TONS of money to facilitate that route already. Personally, I'd rather see the city begin to spend some money on ways to move people within the city instead of in and out of the city. I think doing so is important for the city proper to remain a viable and attractive alternative to living beyond the city's bounds. Both are needed, but no one can honestly say that the suburbs have been neglected by the money spent on Oklahoma City city roads. Well over a billion dollars has been spent on freeways in the last decade or so in the Oklahoma City area in large part to accommodate suburban commuters.

[PLANSIT]

seriously..

I leave from roughly danforth and broadway every morning at 7:45-8 and get to the federal building between 9 and 9:45.

it's usually after 2-3 am when I leave to go back home and that takes about 15-20 minutes, but the times I've had to leave at 5pm I've rarely ever gotten home before 6:30.

Go a different route. We have this beautiful grid, put it to use.

[wsucougz]

"The Economist magazine recently said Seattle has the "worst transportation planning in North America". In addition, 420,000 signatures on an initiative (I-912) to repeal the new State gas tax were gathered in just 32 days. These should be wakeup calls for this region to fix fundamental problems in how we go about transportation planning.

Many who signed I-912 said they didn’t trust government to spend their tax dollars wisely and that there was a lack of accountability. Unfortunately, their concerns are well founded, and unless something is done angry citizens threaten not only the gas tax but also the RTID package of local tax increases needed to finish paying for the viaduct, 520 bridge and other critical projects. Remember a similar package (Referendum 51) was defeated in 2002 largely on the lack-of-trust issue. (a) Initiatives are crude remedies and do collateral damage, but a "starve the beast" approach is about the only way ordinary voters can hope to change things.

(a) Seattle Times, Jan 12, 2003. see How ST Abused….p.108 for the quote

It’s far, far better to address the causes of voter disillusionment before these issues come to vote. Lets take steps to ensure our tax dollars will be spent wisely, and spent achieving what people care about most; namely faster trips for auto and transit users alike. Lets also install accountability and rebuild trust.

There are two high priority targets for reform here at the regional level: Sound Transit (ST) and our official regional transportation-planning agency, the Puget Sound Regional Council (PSRC). ST’s a poster child for why people don’t trust government to spend tax dollars wisely, and PSRC’s asleep on the job.

Sound Transit is doing four major things wrong. First it has built a hugely wasteful commuter rail line called Sounder where every ride requires over $100 in taxpayer subsidies. (b) Second, it’s building a light rail system that will cost billions more than an equally effective bus rapid transit system. (c) Third it’s destroying trust by disseminating misleading information. (d) Forth, its management is –for all practical purposes --not accountable for results. Highlights follow but see Puget Sound Public Interest Transportation Forum: Seattle RTA Sound Transit light rail commuter rail bus monorail transit plan and CETA - Coalition for Effective Transportation Alternatives for details."




"Unless they had gone out of their way on their junket, the visiting dignitaries were unlikely to hear the other side of the story: Portland's public transit has done nothing to relieve the region's growing congestion; its high cost has sparked a taxpayer revolt; the developments along the rail lines were themselves heavily subsidized; and those subsidies led a crafty cabal of ex-politicians and developers to milk the system for their own gain.

How do Portland-area residents feel about local light-rail projects? They voted against raising taxes to build more light-rail in 1998. In 2002, they voted against a ballot measure increasing neighborhood densities — as transit-oriented developments do. In 2004, they supported a property-rights measure that challenged the very foundations of Oregon's land-use planning system. Planners have ignored all these votes and are building light rail with tax-increment financing and other hidden tax increases."


yeah, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

OK, so you cited a bunch of opinion pieces, one from 2003 proclaiming Sound Transit's failures. It doesn't explain, then, why 59 percent of voters recently approved a $22.8 billion ballot measure designed to extend light rail to where? You guessed it, the suburbs.

I don't know about Portland, but at some point(since 1998 and 2002) they must have voted in favor of rail measures.

I stand by my claims.

[Doug Loudenback]

Pardon me if this has already been posted -- very long threads like this one mitigate against me reading the whole thing to find out -- but here is a new website which relates to this topic, the Modern Transit Project: Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City

[BoulderSooner]

And lets not kid ourselves, if we try to sell this as a relief of congestion, we are going fail. OKC does not have congestion. Here and Here.

this

[PLANSIT]

yeah, those are pretty graphs and all.. They don't explain why it takes an hour to 2 hours to drive 14 miles on I-235 every weekday.

I realize that people like to throw out graphs that explain why real-world experiences aren't really real, but I'm confident that the voters in Oklahoma will see this for what it really is..

I can get you plenty more that suggest the same thing. A lot of these "pretty graphs" are based on sound trip data provided and summarized in the this region's 2030 Long Range Plan. Data that is meticulously gathered using GPS and surveys, provided by people just like you. Anecdotal exaggerations or not, one congested section (for that matter, many sections) of a massive system does not deduce the graphs provided to be false. It merely indicates most cities have it far worse. Now, if citizens of Central Oklahoma believe it to be congested than great, less work for the public outreach folks. It's an easier sell.

Most transit advocates sell systems as alternatives for commuters, not the end all solution to every transportation problem.

[BDP]

We have this beautiful grid, put it to use.

To be fair, Edmond doesn't.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that everyone who complains about traffic in Oklahoma City lives in Edmond. ; )

[OKCisOK4me]

Yeah, I go to the Seattle Times for all my "transportation analysis." Or to the highly respected -- by highway lobby people -- OKC "Fixed Guideway Study."

Fixed?

Yep. It was fixed, alright -- from the very beginning. I told them at their first "public meeting," on a Presidents Day holiday at the Norick Library with more bureaucrats and presenters present than public, what their "study" would find. We don't need rail of any kind for a long, long time.

It was quite reminiscent of all that "elaborate consensus building" ODOT did in its "public input process" for the plan to destroy the Union Station rail yard with an unnecessary highway. Only I can't find anybody who actually wanted ODOT's "solution."

Who was, at least ostensibly, behind the "Fixed Guideway Study?" COTPA, Carter Burgess Engineers and Saxum Communications.

The senior-most individual of long standing at COTPA by then was their Oklahoma Transit Association XD and chief lobbyist who also serves as XD for Oklahoma Good Roads and Streets. Who are they? Neal McCaleb and associates.

The world website of Carter Burgess extensively lauded Dallas, Denver and Washington, DC for intelligent preservation and reuse of their historic Union Stations as modern transit hubs. But in OKC, home of the West's last unused Union Station boasting all original yard space, of which envy has been expressed by transit leaders in Dallas and Denver, Carter Burgess said "saving this Union Station is not in our mandate." Where does Carter Burgess get most of its business in Oklahoma? Likely, ODOT. Who runs ODOT? Ostensibly, Gary Ridley, hand picked replacement of -- Neal McCaleb.

And Saxum Communications? Just happened, at the time it was scattering "public input meetings" out into small venues at odd times all over the metro, to be running the State Question 723 campaign for "Oklahomans for Safe Bridges and Roads." Who are they? Neal McCaleb and associates.

Is the Fixed Guideway Study worth the paper it's written on?

Actually, it cost the taxpayers about $800,000.

First off Tom, great point in the bold above! That basically kills your whole argument.

Second, can we pleaaaaaaase keep the Union Station chit chat in the thread designated for it?

Since you took your turn, I'm going to take mine. I know the visual map provided is not on speck, but don't you like on it, Tom, how they have Union Station SSE of the Ford Center but it is currently SSW?! AWESOME. I think the city may have plans to build an actual commuter facility that will be large enough to one day accommodate all forms of transportation. What a bummer...

Now, back on topic. I don't understand how people can say this won't work for us when looking at other cities of similar or smaller size such as Austin, TX (more commuter than lightrail/streetcar) and Little Rock, AR (which I believe has a circular too). I also believe that this is a fantastic way to get more people to move downtown. And when gas prices do go up, this may be the case where (and I know this is just pure speculation) somebody might just say "screw owning a car and paying for tags/insurance, not to mention $10/gallon gas. It would be a lot less costly if I were to move downtown". The most interesting question is...does OKC have enough "I's" as opposed to "we's"? Because I don't see a lot of families moving out of the suburbs to save money.

If enough people live downtown, then this could definitely be a great answer. I do like how they are tying in the CNG buses. That could definitely help.

For all the naysayers--at least there IS a page dedicated to a plan and not just a thought in the back of one's head.

[Midtowner]

To be fair, Edmond doesn't.

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that everyone who complains about traffic in Oklahoma City lives in Edmond. ; )

Edmond is one of the worst designed suburbs I've ever been to. Everything there seems to be about maximizing the development potential of the land at the cost of the city's long-term viability. Building arterial roads only on section lines was such a terrible idea.

[CuatrodeMayo]

And some sort of Manifest Destiny for the Installation of Stoplights.

[Urban Pioneer]

Jeff Bezdek here. Thank you for many of your kind comments regarding this project and some about me. And quite frankly, I am not opposed to criticism as long as it is factual and responses are weighed in a fair manner.

I have not been on the blog for several years and have resisted disrupting the honest dialogue which OKC talk presents with the launch of this project.

I do want to clear up a few things.

This transit plan is the first coherent start to rectifying 40-50 years of system rot.

It is based on the Fixed Guideway Study which is sanctioned by the mayor. We have had regular and communicative contact.

Public Transit is a highly subsidized device that at one time was a private enterprise. That changed when the automobile became subsidized and road building became a hidden expenditure. PS- "I love my car"

Our city is so spread out that most forms of transit will not work efficiently. Plus, we have a local society that is culturally disconnected from its use.

So..... Changing things is not an easy task. It is not something that should be put in everywhere.

But, all roads lead to downtown. It is the core of the apple. The streetcar proposed has been identified in the FGS (and has been decided) as an optimal solution for downtown. The rubber tired bus trolleys do not work. They are inefficient, confusing, and irregular. I have lived downtown for 8 years (when it wasn't fashionable) and I still don't know when and where they go and I am a transit supporter!

Embedded rails in the ground offer comfort in solace in knowing that yes indeed, this is where the tram is going to come by.

The streetcar would be the first real opportunity to re-expose our citizens to REAL service without gambling on a Metro-wide solution overnight.

Also... Almost everybody I have talked to is either in the camp they don't believe it will work or they want it everywhere "especially to their front door". There is a plan. It is a ten year plan.

$140 million is a down-payment on federal matching funds. That should give us matching power of at least $420 million without the need for politicians. That gives you lots of money to work on those commuter routes (Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, or Light-Rail- refer to the study).


The situation is that it is a very complex issue that took 50 years to create and it will take at least 15 years to dramatically improve. I've been working on it behind the scene for 7 years.

We can wallow in our own situation (especially when gas goes back up to $4.50 or more)- or do something about it.

The streetcar is a start. It is the main connector. It will prove success without dumping all our eggs in a metro-wide light rail basket.

Finally, I find it really fun that everybody is obsessed with the streetcar. The MTP plan calls for innovative use of windmills and a complete replacement of our bus fleet with Oklahoma's own natural gas (commuter buses to be added also).

I find it hilarious that, that part of the proposal has been barely debated/discussed.. Do you guys realize that if this plan were implemented how green it would be. I mean geez- were supposed to be the oil barons of the south and we could have a highly sustainable transit system overnight if we passed this plan. World Class is what were going for. Isn't that enough?- lol Jeff

[Urban Pioneer]

I do want to put out there that we will be adding LOTS more to the MTP website in terms of emerging content. I think that the next constructive steps are to explain the steps in the plan (FGS) in a understandable form. There seems to be confusion as to whether there is a plan and what that big plan is.

Also, I have been encouraged to empasize that reasonable commuter solutions are in this plan. Commuter express bus BRT, light rail in some areas, ect- long term pic.

[betts]

Love the idea of natural gas buses, and a streetcar sounds great. Personally, I'm hoping to be doing lots of walking downtown, but it would be nice to know that in inclement weather or if I'm tired, hopping on a streetcar would be an option.

[wsucougz]

Jeff Bezdek here. Thank you for many of your kind comments regarding this project and some about me. And quite frankly, I am not opposed to criticism as long as it is factual and responses are weighed in a fair manner.

I have not been on the blog for several years and have resisted disrupting the honest dialogue which OKC talk presents with the launch of this project.

I do want to clear up a few things.

This transit plan is the first coherent start to rectifying 40-50 years of system rot.

It is based on the Fixed Guideway Study which is sanctioned by the mayor. We have had regular and communicative contact.

Public Transit is a highly subsidized device that at one time was a private enterprise. That changed when the automobile became subsidized and road building became a hidden expenditure. PS- "I love my car"

Our city is so spread out that most forms of transit will not work efficiently. Plus, we have a local society that is culturally disconnected from its use.

So..... Changing things is not an easy task. It is not something that should be put in everywhere.

But, all roads lead to downtown. It is the core of the apple. The streetcar proposed has been identified in the FGS (and has been decided) as an optimal solution for downtown. The rubber tired bus trolleys do not work. They are inefficient, confusing, and irregular. I have lived downtown for 8 years (when it wasn't fashionable) and I still don't know when and where they go and I am a transit supporter!

Embedded rails in the ground offer comfort in solace in knowing that yes indeed, this is where the tram is going to come by.

The streetcar would be the first real opportunity to re-expose our citizens to REAL service without gambling on a Metro-wide solution overnight.

Also... Almost everybody I have talked to is either in the camp they don't believe it will work or they want it everywhere "especially to their front door". There is a plan. It is a ten year plan.

$140 million is a down-payment on federal matching funds. That should give us matching power of at least $420 million without the need for politicians. That gives you lots of money to work on those commuter routes (Bus, Bus Rapid Transit, or Light-Rail- refer to the study).


The situation is that it is a very complex issue that took 50 years to create and it will take at least 15 years to dramatically improve. I've been working on it behind the scene for 7 years.

We can wallow in our own situation (especially when gas goes back up to $4.50 or more)- or do something about it.

The streetcar is a start. It is the main connector. It will prove success without dumping all our eggs in a metro-wide light rail basket.

Finally, I find it really fun that everybody is obsessed with the streetcar. The MTP plan calls for innovative use of windmills and a complete replacement of our bus fleet with Oklahoma's own natural gas (commuter buses to be added also).

I find it hilarious that, that part of the proposal has been barely debated/discussed.. Do you guys realize that if this plan were implemented how green it would be. I mean geez- were supposed to be the oil barons of the south and we could have a highly sustainable transit system overnight if we passed this plan. World Class is what were going for. Isn't that enough?- lol Jeff

Jeff, what is the estimate of cost for just the first leg of the streetcar, do you know?

[Urban Pioneer]

Basically a safe number is 28 mil a mile. That factors in the maintenance facility. To get from Deep Deuce to Sky Dance Bridge up to St. Anthony's is about 3.4 miles- about 100 mil. We propose that the State chip in their connection and private development financing could make up about 2 mil if TOD's are incorporated.

[onthestrip]

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread up to this point, but the fact of the matter is this is where it must start. Sure, a small percentage of OKC residents would end up using it, but I have a feeling that those who do use it, whether DT dwellers or the suburbanite going to an event, would really enjoy using it. If this passes, this will hands down be the biggest thing to keep the momentum going for the downtown area and hopefully propel it even further. And whats good for downtown is also good for the whole city.

And on another note, this will do wonders for attracting new downtown residents, which only creates a better downtown, which creates a better city, which creates...you get the picture.

[shane453]

There is a major framing error that is going on in the minds of many posters here. From my perspective, reasons for installing such a streetcar system may include traffic, high population density, and other things that OKC doesn't have much of- reasons that dissenters are using to show that we don't need streetcar.

However, there is also the fact that the act of building the streetcar is an economic incentive for future development. We can use the streetcar to stimulate the types of urban development that require streetcars - dense, walkable development that would be congested without public transit.

It is an economic strategy to have this form of transit- not merely a way to relieve traffic. It doesn't matter what percentage of residents will use it. The fact is, future success and growth will require it. I really want to live in this city when I graduate from college, but I really want to live in a city where I can have streetcars and light rail systems and a walkable neighborhood, and I represent many people in my generation. It's important in many ways other than moving people around.

[soonerguru]

Great post, Shane. I agree completely.

We've discussed this here dozens of times. The transit drives development. It has happened everywhere.

[Urban Pioneer]

Jeff, what is the estimate of cost for just the first leg of the streetcar, do you know?

Basically a safe round number is 28 mil per mile (cost of maintenance facility included). Our system is about 3.4 excluding the Capitol extension.

[gmwise]

Ok, I need to say this.
We need to reexamine the routes the current system uses, the one thru meridian/stockyards is depressing, the airport is VERY drab to any visitor.
1 We do NOT need light rail, we still not that high of population denisty
2 We paid for the streets and roads already, why not put CNG buses on it.
3 the street trolleys we have now, is one the worst use of kickback purchases this city has ever made, the current Mayor "Mickey", is the worst of course,for the city but so far the best investment, AM/CB has ever made.
Think people please ride the bloody damn system and depend on it for transportation to your workplace,your doctor appointments, and other.
PLEASE USE SOME INTELLIGENT thoughts.
We don't need a bright shiney red wagon, we just need to clean it up, fix and add a few things to it.
Dependability,coverage,frequency,cost.

[OKCisOK4me]

Jeff, what is the estimate of cost for just the first leg of the streetcar, do you know?

And to add another question to that...

I don't know if there has been planning that has gone this far but my question goes like this. Is there going to be just one set of rails? Or overlapping sets running between each other where every once in a while there will be strips in the streets where car sets running opposing directions will pass each other? My only reasoning for this is because as short as the overall route is--well--it's still long. One set of cars going back and forth all day would be more useless than our current rubber tired trolley system...which like you said, sucks, lol.

Also, I'm behind your plan & I'd like to donate because unlike a lot of the naysayers, I'm forward thinking and wish the best for this city! But, like those naysayers a smidge of me asks 'what if it doesn't go through?'. So my question is, if I donate...and it fails...do I get my money back? Or does it go into some other project??

Thanks for any answers Jeff.

[Kerry]

Jeff - you made a very good point about the benefits of rail vs rubber wheels that gets overlook a lot. Once you lay track it is a sign to developers, businesses, and consumers that the transit system will not move. How many times do bus routes change? This is why bus stops don't lead to TOD.

BTW - you can also put some solar-cells on the trolley roofs to help provide power (even if it just enough power to open the doors).

[Lord Helmet]

Ok, I need to say this.

2 We paid for the streets and roads already, why not put CNG buses on it.

We don't need a bright shiney red wagon, we just need to clean it up, fix and add a few things to it.
Dependability,coverage,frequency,cost.

I don't think that a dependable bus-only system exists...at least I've never seen one. At least rail systems are most likely on-time.

[Rover]

Rail and good alternative transit doesn't necessarily have to FOLLOW high density, but rather can encourage the proper density development of strategic areas. Having access to good, safe, convenient, green transportation into and out of business and/or shopping areas would encourage denser development adjacent to those arteries. We can use this kind of transit to LEAD development, not just FOLLOW where it wants to inefficiently sprawl. People need to understand that we will either control development in a good way and improve lifestyle in OKC, or continue to suffer from a huge infrastructure of sprawling streets, bridges, intersections, etc. that are underfunded because of low property prices and taxes. The real cost comparison should be against the cost of miles of additional streets, sewers, gas lines, water lines, etc. leading to pet project developments miles from the city core. With better density will come higher property values, better infrastructure and a higher standard of living. We need to invest now for our kids and grandkids.