Hobby Lobby business practices

[PennyQuilts]

In the case of my neighbor, the outcome of her 'electing' pregnancy over birth control included massive medical bills, loss of a husband, near death, and loss of some of her physical and mental capacity. A healthy part of the medical bills were footed by her employer furnished insurance.

That's horrible. Her husband actually left her??? Better off without him if he would do that with a baby on the way. How is the baby? Or has he decided to take that from her, too? He'll probably try that in a few years if he hasn't already. My blood is boiling at that jerk.

[Swake2]

We have decided as a society that our healthcare system will be driven by employer provided plans preretirement. Employers have certain legal responsibilities with regards to pay, working conditions, hours and now healthcare. An employers personal politics, religion, business practices and profitability are irrelevant when it comes to these responsibilities. The employer still has the personal right to practice his own religious beliefs and to practice free speech in speaking out against these responsibilities but he does not have right to break the law regarding his responsibilities to his employees.

[Jim Kyle]

Note, however, that the employer can always choose to stop ALL healthcare provision and simply pay the penalty instead. If it comes to that option, then all employees suffer. Does this possibility advance the common welfare?

[jn1780]

Note, however, that the employer can always choose to stop ALL healthcare provision and simply pay the penalty instead. If it comes to that option, then all employees suffer. Does this possibility advance the common welfare?

True, if costs keep esculating companies will realize that paying the one time penalty makes more sense than providing health insurance. Its easier to forecast that penalty than the increasing cost of healthcare plans. They will find other ways to attract employees to their companies.

[Bunty]

It seems just fine for the Hobby Lobby CEO to import much of his merchandise from China, a country, which legally practices abortion as a form of birth control. What people will do for making money.

[Snowman]

It seems just fine for the Hobby Lobby CEO to import much of his merchandise from China, a country, which legally practices abortion as a form of birth control. What people will do for making money.

What percentage of the goods they carry do they have anything to do with the manufacturing? Most of them seem like brands they just carry from 3rd parties.

[WilliamTell]

What percentage of the goods they carry do they have anything to do with the manufacturing? Most of them seem like brands they just carry from 3rd parties.

If you've ever been inside hobby lobby you will quickly see and smell the products that they carry. I mention smell because as soon as you walk into the store there is that 'smell' of cheap Chinese made plastics. I can remember as a child smelling what Chinese made toys smelled like, and today most of the Chinese made items at walmart and target no longer have that smell becauseits a highly competive market and there customers wanted better made products. Once you get inside hobby lobby you are quickly transported back 10-15 years with the lower quality products that they carry.

Hobby lobby (micheals included) still have the very cheap, plasticy pieces that people use during there various hobbies and there hasnt been much of a push for there producers to use safer/better materials. Hobby items arent a high competition market. I've had numerous decorations items ive gotten from hobby stores and after a year or two stored in the top of the closet or in the attic, the plastic actually breaks down, discolors, and melts together.

Thats a long story to illustrate that what Bunty is talking about - Why does hobby lobby not have some morale and ethical objection to having the hundreds of thousands of chinese workers that produce the products they sell (that in all honesty, are probably toxic - go to the store and smell for yourself), for pennies a day which couldnt even be considered living wages by any Christian. Essentially, we all know they are modern day slaves. They are kept so poor, have to live in company barracks, beaten, abused, and disposed of as if they are worthless. To top it off, they have the 1 child rule and if you dont know about that by now, search the internet. For the more advanced workers who rise from the fray we;ve even seen the videos on the internet where they have the Chinese workers who assemble the iphone line up by the thousand for a chance to earn $20 dollars a month, while working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. So just imagine how little someone making plastic flowers or halloween decorations for hobby lobby makes.

But they want to say that there Christian faith hinders them from paying for the morning after pill - thats what Bunty and others find so hypocritical?

[Dubya61]

In context, this was a response to your question about employees making 'elective' decisions that the employer may have to pay for, with my point being there is not always a cut and mentioned are elective too.

So, if your neighbor woild have gotten free birth control, she might not have had a tumor? Was she denied anything that the absence of caused her harm?

[Dubya61]

Ah. *I see. It's the hypocrisy that is the issue. *If only HL sold only American-made products, then they would have a leg to stand on in this moral issue. *Only he who is without blame can throw the first stone, right? *Only those of us who live off the grid, compost, grow our own food and collect rainwater can contest any environmental policy or law, right? Wrong! *Even then, that "horse is already out of the gate". *It's the law of the land and there will be no opposition to it. *That will disappoint many on this board greatly. *If it's law, suck it up and comply. *Got it. *I hope those of us who oppose anything on so-called moral issues are prepared to do without electronics, sports shoes and most cheap clothing. *Oh! The hypocrisy of not being a saint and opposing something on moral grounds. *Is hypocrisy a calling card, like collectivism, Alinsky, and worthless meddling moderates? *If I use it two more times in this post, will I get my liberal union card? *Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy.

[WilliamTell]

Wrong! *

How so? I just think its hypocritical for a company to come out against birth control for its employees 'because it goes against there christian beliefs', while being entirely supplied with the products that they sell that are made in a country that has had a very well documented history of forced abortions by its government and corporations.

Corporations have tremendous power over who they can choose as suppliers, and where they manufacture their goods. Just reference how walmart drove suppliers to move a once huge manufacturing economy here in the United States to China within the span of 10 years. We can also see the resurgence (i myself have seen it) within the last two years where i am beginning to find multiple items at walmart that are now made in America. The best part is...they are the same price as the Chinese made items were a few years ago.

So if you think hobby lobby with its 10 billion square feet of warehouse here in okc that has the hobby supply market dominated cant demand that there suppliers dont use slave labor that forces workers to get abortions. Well, then im wasting my time typing because you will be too incompetent to understand it anyway. Prunie.

[mugofbeer]

How so? I just think its hypocritical for a company to come out against birth control for its employees 'because it goes against there christian beliefs', while being entirely supplied with the products that they sell that are made in a country that has had a very well documented history of forced abortions by its government and corporations.

Corporations have tremendous power over who they can choose as suppliers, and where they manufacture their goods. Just reference how walmart drove suppliers to move a once huge manufacturing economy here in the United States to China within the span of 10 years. We can also see the resurgence (i myself have seen it) within the last two years where i am beginning to find multiple items at walmart that are now made in America. The best part is...they are the same price as the Chinese made items were a few years ago.

So if you think hobby lobby with its 10 billion square feet of warehouse here in okc that has the hobby supply market dominated cant demand that there suppliers dont use slave labor that forces workers to get abortions. Well, then im wasting my time typing because you will be too incompetent to understand it anyway. Prunie.

The veracity of the comments against "cheap, Chinese-made plastics" is starting to sounds more like veracity against Chinese people. Chinese people and CHinese government are two totally different things. HL is in a competative business and must compete against the Wal Marts, the Target's and the Michael's of the world - not to mention foreign retail stores we are likely not familiar with - all of whom also buy cheap, Chinese-made plastic goods. Let's not forget that our retail stores must compete in a world market-place.

Your assertion that HL has tremendous ability to choose it's suppliers is only partially correct. It could easily choose some American supplier to make all of those plastic goods - albeit at 5-times the cost which would require HL to sell those goods and far higher prices than they can now. This would result in HL going out of business. It chooses the Chinese or Hatian or Malaysian suppliers because it has to to compete.

Would you prefer HL not exist and instead we have a chain of Chinese semi-state owned hobby stores that sell cheap, Chinese-made plastic products who might have absolutely no concern whatsoever about employee health care concerns? We had auto-makers that were unionized by strong and demanding unions and had, at the same time, inept management that did not properly prepare the firms to operate in a world economy. This combination of ineptness/unrealistic demands opened the door for Japanese and Korean auto makers who have nearly killed them off. It is only a few years away that we will have cheap, Chinese-made auto's being sold in this country by semi-State owned Chinese automakers, cheap, Chinese owned airliners competing against Boeing, etc, etc.

HL buys cheap, Chinese-made plastic from Chinese manufacturers because Americans buy them and it has to to sell them to survive and compete against the other stores. HL doesn't want to get involved in the health care quagmire any more than any of you want them to be there, but it is a privately owned company, employs tens-of-thousands of Americans and provides them with health care insurance. It indirectly employs what are likely thousands of Chinese common people who would otherwise be toiling in fields or selling noodles from food carts who make all of those cheap, Chinese-made plastic goods - and who really couldn't give a **** if their government provides or supports abortions.

HL could simply drop all forms of health care insurance for their employees and very well may make the hard decision to do so if they are forced by the government to violate what the Greens view as an immoral and forced violation of their most basic principles - not to kill fellow human beings. Ironic that if/when Obamacare goes into full effect both that "evil" government in China making all of that cheap, Chinese-made plastic goods will support abortions while our government will force all business who provide a "benefit" to their employees to pay for abortions - like it or not. Sound like the economic models are becoming more and more similar...........

[Dubya61]

Employers have certain legal responsibilities with regards to pay, working conditions, hours and now healthcare. An employers personal politics, religion, business practices and profitability are irrelevant when it comes to these responsibilities. The employer still has the personal right to practice his own religious beliefs and to practice free speech in speaking out against these responsibilities but he does not have right to break the law regarding his responsibilities to his employees.

No, but he does have the right to contest the (recent, ramrodded through congress and not fully implemented) law thriugh legal channels available to him.

[Double Edge]

No, but he does have the right to contest the (recent, ramrodded through congress and not fully implemented) law thriugh legal channels available to him.

And hopefully, we taxpayers have the right to get reimbursed for our legal fees when he loses.

[Dubya61]

On the off chance that a pregnant woman develops a tumor, we should provide "well care" birth control, like immunizations. *Hey, it just occured to me how expensive that could be over the long term with pills. *As a cost-cutting method, we should probably just sterilize all women st a certain age. *Those wanting children can apply from a new government agency that collects the surplus from China, after, of course, they've had that plasticy smell removed. *That's a win-win! *As a bonus, we could control who gets to raise children, or at least whose village. *The application fee could help pay for the new (cabinet level) department of child patriation and distribution.

[Dubya61]

And hopefully, we taxpayers have the right to get reimbursed for our legal fees when he loses.

Right. Punish Mr. Green for daring to disagree with you, Pres. Obama, or Rep. Pelosi. *This would be a major misstep for our government. It would result in people being afraid to challenge laws both popular and unpopular through legal channels. I will bet that you (DE or dear reader) know of a law that you think is either unjust or illlegal. You would be foolhardy to attempt to challenge any law with the potential liability of a second set of legal expenses. No. *This isn't a frivolous lawsuit. *The government should bear full brunt of defending its edicts.**

[Dubya61]

DE, you're right. *I don't want my employer involved in my health care. *Honestly, neither does it.
Two years ago, it had no impact. *Way back then, if you will recall, health insurance was something called a benefit. *As a benefit, employers had another tool to attract good employees. *Now employers are required to provide health insurance that meets certain specifications. *It appears that it was the PPACA that got my employer involved as a middleman in my healthcare.
The healthcare specified by the insurance that my employer offers doesn't meet the standards that I want. *Know what I did? *I purchased better insurance from another source. *There are several others that I know of that do the same. *That is what people who don't like the stipulations of the insurance that HL would LIKE to provide should do: *seek out other insurance and purchase it.
Instead of this solution, President Obama and Representative Pelosi ramrodded through congress a new edict -- a one size fits all mandated level of care that apparently will be administered through insurance companies and government panels.. *Instead of taking a look at what makes medicine cost so much, they devised to take insurance to task. *Instead of looking at tort reform, they decided that insurance was the problem. *That's kind of like making employers subsidize the price of gasoline when a preponderance of Americans can't afford to drive their gas guzzler SUVs for a 50 mile daily commute. *There are probably other more logical solutions to attempt out there. *Sadly, we see problems with health care and think it's an insurance problem. *You ever see Planes, Trains, and Automobiles? *Remember the scene where Steve Martin and John Candy are proceeding down the wrong dude of the interstate and a fellow traveller (on the right side of the interstate) tries to tell them, "You're going the wrong way." *Apparently the wrong synapse fires off in John Candy's brain and asks, "How do the know where we're going?" *Some time ago, someone announced that medical costs were obscene and the wrong synapse fired off to detour that thought process off on the insurance tangent.
HL should be able to offer the insurance it wants to as s benefit to it's employees. *Americans should be able to get health care they need at a reasonable price. *Those two great concepts are only*tangentially related -- at least they were before the PPACA. * *Now, not much -- and health care STILL is obscenely expexsive.

[Double Edge]

DE, you're right. *I don't want my employer involved in my health care. *Honestly, neither does it.
Two years ago, it had no impact. *Way back then, if you will recall, health insurance was something called a benefit. *As a benefit, employers had another tool to attract good employees. *Now employers are required to provide health insurance that meets certain specifications. *It appears that it was the PPACA that got my employer involved as a middleman in my healthcare.
The healthcare specified by the insurance that my employer offers doesn't meet the standards that I want. *Know what I did? *I purchased better insurance from another source. *There are several others that I know of that do the same. *That is what people who don't like the stipulations of the insurance that HL would LIKE to provide should do: *seek out other insurance and purchase it.
Instead of this solution, President Obama and Representative Pelosi ramrodded through congress a new edict -- a one size fits all mandated level of care that apparently will be administered through insurance companies and government panels.. *Instead of taking a look at what makes medicine cost so much, they devised to take insurance to task. *Instead of looking at tort reform, they decided that insurance was the problem. *That's kind of like making employers subsidize the price of gasoline when a preponderance of Americans can't afford to drive their gas guzzler SUVs for a 50 mile daily commute. *There are probably other more logical solutions to attempt out there. *Sadly, we see problems with health care and think it's an insurance problem. *You ever see Planes, Trains, and Automobiles? *Remember the scene where Steve Martin and John Candy are proceeding down the wrong dude of the interstate and a fellow traveller (on the right side of the interstate) tries to tell them, "You're going the wrong way." *Apparently the wrong synapse fires off in John Candy's brain and asks, "How do the know where we're going?" *Some time ago, someone announced that medical costs were obscene and the wrong synapse fired off to detour that thought process off on the insurance tangent.
HL should be able to offer the insurance it wants to as s benefit to it's employees. *Americans should be able to get health care they need at a reasonable price. *Those two great concepts are only*tangentially related -- at least they were before the PPACA. * *Now, not much -- and health care STILL is obscenely expexsive.

Thanks for helping illustrate the failings of the old grossly inefficient healthcare policy by employer's carrot and whim. No thanks.

[TaoMaas]

I had supper with some old friends the other day and we all started comparing gall bladder surgery stories. One person in the group didn't have insurance at the time she needed her gall bladder out. She went to her usual doctor and the price was going to be $30,000 for the surgery. There was no way she could afford that kind of expense and wasn't quite sure what to do. A nurse friend of hers said, "Let me look around and see if I can't find a better price." She found a surgical center who agreed to do the same procedure for $5000. I have a brother-in-law who has a similar story. He needed to have a sty removed from his eyelid. His doctor wanted to put him in the hospital overnight. My brother-in-law refused and asked to have the removal done as an "in-office" procedure. His bill came to $3000. When he came into the doctor's office to pay, he asked, "How much do you want for this surgery if I pay cash...right now?" The woman at the desk said, "Let me check with our business manager." When she came back, she said, "$1000". My brother-in-law counted out the cash and was on his way. Now...I haven't quite decided what role insurance plays in driving up the cost of healthcare, but I do know that when you get insurance companies out of these business transactions, costs drop by 1/3 to 1/5 of the original amount.

[PennyQuilts]

I had supper with some old friends the other day and we all started comparing gall bladder surgery stories. One person in the group didn't have insurance at the time she needed her gall bladder out. She went to her usual doctor and the price was going to be $30,000 for the surgery. There was no way she could afford that kind of expense and wasn't quite sure what to do. A nurse friend of hers said, "Let me look around and see if I can't find a better price." She found a surgical center who agreed to do the same procedure for $5000. I have a brother-in-law who has a similar story. He needed to have a sty removed from his eyelid. His doctor wanted to put him in the hospital overnight. My brother-in-law refused and asked to have the removal done as an "in-office" procedure. His bill came to $3000. When he came into the doctor's office to pay, he asked, "How much do you want for this surgery if I pay cash...right now?" The woman at the desk said, "Let me check with our business manager." When she came back, she said, "$1000". My brother-in-law counted out the cash and was on his way. Now...I haven't quite decided what role insurance plays in driving up the cost of healthcare, but I do know that when you get insurance companies out of these business transactions, costs drop by 1/3 to 1/5 of the original amount.

I've had the same experience. We have a high deductible plan and when we haven't reached our deductible, they always slash - and I mean slash - the prices for visits from what they charge people with insurance. I never even have to ask. This is one of the big reasons I don't support Obamacare. It does nothing to lower health care costs. It just expands insurance and that actually keeps health care costs higher.

[Dubya61]

How so? I just think its hypocritical for a company to come out against birth control for its employees 'because it goes against there christian beliefs', while being entirely supplied with the products that they sell that are made in a country that has had a very well documented history of forced abortions by its government and corporations.*

Corporations have tremendous power over who they can choose as suppliers, and where they manufacture their goods. Just reference how walmart drove suppliers to move a once huge manufacturing economy here in the United States to China within the span of 10 years. We can also see the resurgence (i myself have seen it) within the last two years where i am beginning to find multiple items at walmart that are now made in America. The best part is...they are the same price as the Chinese made items were a few years ago.

So if you think hobby lobby with its 10 billion square feet of warehouse here in okc that has the hobby supply market dominated cant demand that there suppliers dont use slave labor that forces workers to get abortions. Well, then im wasting my time typing because you will be too incompetent to understand it anyway. Prunie.

Let's be clear. *Do not confuse me with Prunepicker. *If it was your intent to insult me, mission accomplished.

Is it hypocritical? *You bet, and I never said it wasn't. *Never. *The post I made out of which you quoted one word was an angry vent that I still stand behind. *Hobby Lobby is absolutely right to stand up and say this law is inconsistent with the owner's beliefs. *They are fully within their rights and in keeping with the spIrit of the constitution of our country when they challenge this new and not yet fully enacted law.
But that's not what you have a problem with, if I read your post correctly. *You seem to have a problem with the fact that HL can't reconcile their beliefs with this new law in the country they are established in but seemingly turn a blind eye to a practice inconsistent with their beliefs in effect in a foriegn country where you believe they purchase the bulk of their product. *Does that mean that they should just roll over and continue as is?if you're not going to be a saint, then go ahead and wallow in the moral muck? *I think that they should attempt the changes they can. *I know you said that they should attempt to change that, too, but they might be. *Even if they're not, we make moral choices every day and continue have the freedom to be vocal and active in some areas while silent and passive in others. *There's a person I know on this board who is passionate about the environment and other issues. *I'll bet that he is actively working to bring about change. *Should that person be silenced until he stops using a gasoline-powered car, ceases to consume food cooked with gas and generates all his required electricity with renewable resources? *I hope not. *I value his information and perspective. *There's a person I know on this board who is passionate about New Urbanism and other issues. *I'll bet that he is actively working to bring snout change. *Should he be silenced until he sells his home in the suburbs at any cost? *I hope not. *I value his information and perspective, as well. *You appear to be passionate about working and living conditions for the Chinese laborer. *Do you use a Lexmark printer or copier? *Do you own *any sports shoes? *An iPhone? *If you do, does that mean that you have no voice in exacting a change? *I hope not. I'm sure you also have a valuable perspective and information to share.
Is it hypocritical of HL to try to change one thing while not appearing as active on another issue? *Yes, but we all harbor a little hypocrisy in our lives, don't we?

Oh, and now for the snarky part. *Walmart is good? and is mostly stocking American-made products, now? *I'd be very hesitant to trot Walmart out as a good corporate citizen with regard to their import record or method of coercion of suppliers to fit their marketing models.

[WilliamTell]

-Let's be clear. *Do not confuse me with Prunepicker. *If it was your intent to insult me, mission accomplished.

-*Hobby Lobby is absolutely right to stand up and say this law is inconsistent with the owner's beliefs. *They are fully within their rights and in keeping with the spIrit of the constitution of our country when they challenge this new and not yet fully enacted law.
But that's not what you have a problem with, if I read your post correctly. *You seem to have a problem with the fact that HL can't reconcile their beliefs with this new law in the country they are established in but seemingly turn a blind eye to a practice inconsistent with their beliefs in effect in a foriegn country where you believe they purchase the bulk of their product.

-*Does that mean that they should just roll over and continue as is?if you're not going to be a saint, then go ahead and wallow in the moral muck?

-Sorry about that one

-Exactly - it seems like they stand up for their religious beliefs when its convenient and cost effective for them and they turn a blind eye when it isnt. Hobby Lobby's entire business model is based on buying cheap chinese crap (which we know is built in slave conditions with a LONG history of abuse and forced abortions) and then reselling it to Americans at a higher price. I watched 'Walmarts, the high cost of low price' the other day and the average toy was purchased for something like $0.07 in China and resold for $15.88 here in America. I'm sure Hobby Lobbys business model isnt far off of that number, so if they cant support their christian ideals and bring christian like working conditions to their workers on $15.81 margin per toy then that's b.s. Maybe they should ask themselves, WWJD.

But now they have a big moral objection to paying a few cents for there American workers to have access to birth control? come on!?!

[MadMonk]

-Sorry about that one

-Exactly - it seems like they stand up for their religious beliefs when its convenient and cost effective for them and they turn a blind eye when it isnt. Hobby Lobby's entire business model is based on buying cheap chinese crap (which we know is built in slave conditions with a LONG history of abuse and forced abortions) and then reselling it to Americans at a higher price. I watched 'Walmarts, the high cost of low price' the other day and the average toy was purchased for something like $0.07 in China and resold for $15.88 here in America. I'm sure Hobby Lobbys business model isnt far off of that number, so if they cant support their christian ideals and bring christian like working conditions to their workers on $15.81 margin per toy then that's b.s. Maybe they should ask themselves, WWJD.

But now they have a big moral objection to paying a few cents for there American workers to have access to birth control? come on!?!

Do you have first hand knowledge of this or is this an uninformed opinion? I ask because I know a buyer for Hobby Lobby and she says you have no clue about what you are talking about in this case. She says that Hobby Lobby employs their own people in China to ensure that the quality of the product they buy is rigorously tested and meets the highest standards. In addition, they only use suppliers that agree to wages and working conditions that are in line with the owner's standards. She makes several trips to China every year and sees this for herself. They are apparently pretty good standards because the jobs in those plants are highly sought after. She did say that there have been some exceptions in recent years, and as a result Hobby Lobby began manufacturing the product in-house(this was a yarn product she was talking about) and they make the product here in OKC now.

It seems that you misunderstand their objection. It's not about the money, it's about medicines that are effectively abortion pills, not regular methods of contraception prevention.

[WilliamTell]

-She says that Hobby Lobby employs their own people in China to ensure that the quality of the product they buy is rigorously tested and meets the highest standards

-They are apparently pretty good standards because the jobs in those plants are highly sought after. She did say that there have been some exceptions in recent years,

-Hobby Lobby began manufacturing the product in-house(this was a yarn product she was talking about) and they make the product here in OKC now.

-If they meet the highest quality standards I have some Halloween decorations that I purchased last year that have since melted together for her to refund.

-Highly sought after jobs - reference my post about the iphone workers at the foxxcon plant. These are probably the highest sought after jobs in the country and they make a whopping 20 dollars a month, work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, forced to live in dorms that you and i would never live in, forced to eat meals at the factory, and have had hundreds of health and safety violations that have been covered up for years. But hey, thousands still line up outside the plant for jobs. Maybe the Hobby Lobby owner should ask himself...What Would Jesus Do?

Employ modern day slave labor and then tell his state side employees how good those Chinese workers have it compared to the rest of those.......??????

-Wow, they make yarn here. Kudos to them.

[MadMonk]

-If they meet the highest quality standards I have some Halloween decorations that I purchased last year that have since melted together for her to refund.

Pro-tip: Things melt if they get too hot. Hard to beat that whole physics thing isn't it?

-Highly sought after jobs - reference my post about the iphone workers at the foxxcon plant. These are probably the highest sought after jobs in the country and they make a whopping 20 dollars a month, work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, forced to live in dorms that you and i would never live in, forced to eat meals at the factory, and have had hundreds of health and safety violations that have been covered up for years. But hey, thousands still line up outside the plant for jobs. Maybe the Hobby Lobby owner should ask himself...What Would Jesus Do?

Employ modern day slave labor and then tell his state side employees how good those Chinese workers have it compared to the rest of those.......??????

-Wow, they make yarn here. Kudos to them.

Please elaborate on the details of how you obtained your experience in dealing with the Chinese culture so that I can compare it to the experience of someone who has been there and has first hand experience. Bonus points if Google or Wikipedia isn't involved.

I don't consider myself a Christian scholar, but I doubt that Jesus would want someone to go against his deeply held belief that abortion is wrong by providing for the means of performing it.

[WilliamTell]

It's not about the money, it's about medicines that are effectively abortion pills, not regular methods of contraception prevention.

I thought this deserved a separate response. So, State sponsored forced abortions for his Chinese workers are OK........but his American workers voluntarily having medical access to the morning after pill is against his religion.

Why doesnt this guy petition the Chinese government with this nonsense if he gave a damn about his 'highly sought' after Chinese workers.


I'm a proud Christian. I just get a kick at how other 'Christians' are so quick to down grade and dismiss another human being rights (human and religious) because they are a different color or speak a different language. I'm pretty sure that's not WWJD.