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Thread: Hobby Lobby business practices

  1. #51

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedogok View Post
    If employees don't agree with the views of the owners then they are free to seek employment elsewhere.
    You're leaving yourself wide open with such a broad statement.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by venture79 View Post
    I am. I to have many family and friends that have had to get prescribed birth control for reasons other than what its name implies. However, I don't really know any that ran to their priest for approval...I guess it depends how they feel morally on it. The part I was getting to was if these Catholic organizations aren't going to pay for birth control, are they blocking paying for it completely or will they have exceptions internally if the doctor prescribes it for something other than birth control.
    I wouldn't think you'd need an exception - you don't need one, now. The church is far more offended at being forced to pay for contraceptives, per se, than they are for drugs/procedures that can merely be used as contraceptives if you wish As a Catholic, you know that intent is a big deal with the faith. There are some church doctrines about whether they need to abstain while a birth control mechanism is use but that is a completely separate question from using drugs/procedures that also impact contraception. And the fact that they require abstaining while using certain medications just proves the point that they allow medication and procedures for non contraception reasons.

    Things like D&C's are common for other uses other than abortions - same with birth control pills to correct irregular periods - and there isn't a problem with paying for these if that is what they are supposed to be used for. They don't spend their time and energy pouring over common medical procedures or medications prescribed to treat common conditions (and the purpose/reason is included in the billing) looking for sin. Are there doctors that prescribe such things for birth control and claim it is for irregular periods? Of course. But all that means is that church law allows for such things, already, and the parishioner is doing the time honored run around. I imagine that if there was a widespread problem of a Catholics needing to go to their priest to get permission for a D&C or birth control pills we'd have all heard horror stories from our catholic friends who get insurance through the church - but we haven't.

  3. #53

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    It is up to the employee to make decisions about their healthcare, not the employer. Employer doesn't get to decide how employee will spend their wagers either.

    I hope when HL loses they get to pay back the taxpayers' legal fees on this issue.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    It is up to the employee to make decisions about their healthcare, not the employer. Employer doesn't get to decide how employee will spend their wagers either.
    So should the employee get to do elective surgery on the employers dime, as well? If the employee wants cosmetic surgery, is that their option at the employer's expense, as well?

  5. #55

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    So should the employee get to do elective surgery on the employers dime, as well? If the employee wants cosmetic surgery, is that their option at the employer's expense, as well?
    That covers a lot of ground so I have to say, it depends. "Elective" could mean a choice of types of medical care than the no medical care vs medical care or expensive medical care vs cheap medical care your post seems to allude to. "Elective" surgery might end a lifetime of drugs, PT, trips to the doctor etc.

    Same goes for birth control. Anecdotally, I have a neighbor who had a brain tumor that grew exponentially when her hormone profile changed as the result of her pregnancy. It almost killed her, has resulted in several surgeries and has drastically altered her life. (As well as all the lives surrounding her.) The employer should not be involved in making those types of personal medical decisions for their employees.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    That covers a lot of ground so I have to say, it depends. "Elective" could mean a choice of types of medical care than the no medical care vs medical care or expensive medical care vs cheap medical care your post seems to allude to.
    If my post alluded to any of those dichotomies, it was poorly worded. I thought that "elective surgery" was succinct. I can't help but think that birth control should be an option right up there with OTC drugs and liposuction. You want it? Go get it. You're free to do so. It would be wrong for an employer to control that decision. It would be foolish to expect an insurance company to pay for it and presumptious to expect an employer to fund ANY of it.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    QUOTE=Bunty;574613]Do you also go twice as often now to Chick-fil-a?[/QUOTE]
    nah. . .that was just a flippant reply. . .very rarely do Chick-fiil-a, but it has nothing to do with boycotting their stance. I do frequent HB for some things and do appreciate that they (corporate) are local. Peace??

  8. #58

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    If my post alluded to any of those dichotomies, it was poorly worded. I thought that "elective surgery" was succinct. I can't help but think that birth control should be an option right up there with OTC drugs and liposuction. You want it? Go get it. You're free to do so. It would be wrong for an employer to control that decision. It would be foolish to expect an insurance company to pay for it and presumptious to expect an employer to fund ANY of it.
    Again, you seem to argue the end result of the doctor supervised treatment is more expensive than not getting treatment. See my previous post.

    But you're against the AHA and other insurance laws all the way and believe the employer should be able to pick and chose whatever they want to provide to their employees, ignoring the supreme court decision too, right?

    If that's not the case, do you think all well care coverage should be excluded in addition to reproductive issue care, like a tetanus shot or other immunizations, cancer screenings, heart checks, blood screens etc. I'm sure somewhere, some employer objects to these on religious grounds if it is only those who worship the Almighty Dollar.

    OTC drugs and liposuction
    false equivalence

  9. #59

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    Again, you seem to argue the end result of the doctor supervised treatment is more expensive than not getting treatment. See my previous post.

    But you're against the AHA and other insurance laws all the way and believe the employer should be able to pick and chose whatever they want to provide to their employees, ignoring the supreme court decision too, right?

    If that's not the case, do you think all well care coverage should be excluded in addition to reproductive issue care, like a tetanus shot or other immunizations, cancer screenings, heart checks, blood screens etc. I'm sure somewhere, some employer objects to these on religious grounds if it is only those who worship the Almighty Dollar.



    false equivalence
    Perhaps I've too simple a mind for your far superior intellect. I've re-read your previous post and mine and don't see where I say that the end result of doctor supervised treatment is more expensive than not getting treatment? Please illuminate me. Is it your reference to a neighbor with a brain tumor? Clearly that's a situation where some hormone treatment solved a problem. I don't believe that birth control medicines should be made free to the public because in this situation it solved a complex medical problem. If that was your argument, then should headache medicine be made free to the public because heart patients can use it to thin blood and prevent a heart attack?

    I'm not totally against the PPAHA. You've made that assumption without good basis. I think that with a few modifications, the PPAHA will do wonders for the American public -- but lets be honest here. SOMEBODY has to pick and choose what the standard of health care is to be provided to employees and the PPAHA does that -- and not all that perfectly, in my opinion. I don't think that we have to provide Sandra Fluke with free birth control. Is that what you're stating when you ask if I "think all well care coverage should be excluded in addition to reproductive issue care"? Is birth control now "well care"? To extend that line of thinking, birth control to prevent a pregnancy is like a tetanus shot to prevent a disease.

    Regarding your parting shot about equating birth control, OTC drugs and liposuction, I stand by my earlier statement. I wish birth control pills were something you COULD get over the counter. I think that a whole lot more people would take advantage of that option to prevent a pregnancy. And I don't see how there's a false equivalency between OTC drugs and liposuction -- especially in the original context. Both are things MY health insurance won't pay for.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    Perhaps I've too simple a mind for your far superior intellect. I've re-read your previous post and mine and don't see where I say that the end result of doctor supervised treatment is more expensive than not getting treatment? Please illuminate me. Is it your reference to a neighbor with a brain tumor? Clearly that's a situation where some hormone treatment solved a problem. I don't believe that birth control medicines should be made free to the public because in this situation it solved a complex medical problem. If that was your argument, then should headache medicine be made free to the public because heart patients can use it to thin blood and prevent a heart attack?
    My neighbor was not getting hormone treatment from a doctor. When a woman is pregnant, hormone production changes in her body. These changes in her resulted in explosive growth of the tumor in her head. In context, this was a response to your question about employees making 'elective' decisions that the employer may have to pay for, with my point being there is not always a cut and dried outcome to what one might 'elect,' be it the employer or the employee making those elections. In the case of my neighbor, the outcome of her 'electing' pregnancy over birth control included massive medical bills, loss of a husband, near death, and loss of some of her physical and mental capacity. A healthy part of the medical bills were footed by her employer furnished insurance.

    The other instances of well care I mentioned are elective too.

    The horse is out of the gate and we have laws for minimum standards of healthcare for citizens. The employer should not be the person deciding what these standards are and especially not when the decisions are based on the religious views of the company.

  11. #61

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    In the case of my neighbor, the outcome of her 'electing' pregnancy over birth control included massive medical bills, loss of a husband, near death, and loss of some of her physical and mental capacity. A healthy part of the medical bills were footed by her employer furnished insurance.
    That's horrible. Her husband actually left her??? Better off without him if he would do that with a baby on the way. How is the baby? Or has he decided to take that from her, too? He'll probably try that in a few years if he hasn't already. My blood is boiling at that jerk.

  12. #62

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    We have decided as a society that our healthcare system will be driven by employer provided plans preretirement. Employers have certain legal responsibilities with regards to pay, working conditions, hours and now healthcare. An employers personal politics, religion, business practices and profitability are irrelevant when it comes to these responsibilities. The employer still has the personal right to practice his own religious beliefs and to practice free speech in speaking out against these responsibilities but he does not have right to break the law regarding his responsibilities to his employees.

  13. #63

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Note, however, that the employer can always choose to stop ALL healthcare provision and simply pay the penalty instead. If it comes to that option, then all employees suffer. Does this possibility advance the common welfare?

  14. #64

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    It seems just fine for the Hobby Lobby CEO to import much of his merchandise from China, a country, which legally practices abortion as a form of birth control. What people will do for making money.

  15. #65

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    It seems just fine for the Hobby Lobby CEO to import much of his merchandise from China, a country, which legally practices abortion as a form of birth control. What people will do for making money.
    What percentage of the goods they carry do they have anything to do with the manufacturing? Most of them seem like brands they just carry from 3rd parties.

  16. #66

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kyle View Post
    Note, however, that the employer can always choose to stop ALL healthcare provision and simply pay the penalty instead. If it comes to that option, then all employees suffer. Does this possibility advance the common welfare?
    True, if costs keep esculating companies will realize that paying the one time penalty makes more sense than providing health insurance. Its easier to forecast that penalty than the increasing cost of healthcare plans. They will find other ways to attract employees to their companies.

  17. #67

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman View Post
    What percentage of the goods they carry do they have anything to do with the manufacturing? Most of them seem like brands they just carry from 3rd parties.
    If you've ever been inside hobby lobby you will quickly see and smell the products that they carry. I mention smell because as soon as you walk into the store there is that 'smell' of cheap Chinese made plastics. I can remember as a child smelling what Chinese made toys smelled like, and today most of the Chinese made items at walmart and target no longer have that smell becauseits a highly competive market and there customers wanted better made products. Once you get inside hobby lobby you are quickly transported back 10-15 years with the lower quality products that they carry.

    Hobby lobby (micheals included) still have the very cheap, plasticy pieces that people use during there various hobbies and there hasnt been much of a push for there producers to use safer/better materials. Hobby items arent a high competition market. I've had numerous decorations items ive gotten from hobby stores and after a year or two stored in the top of the closet or in the attic, the plastic actually breaks down, discolors, and melts together.

    Thats a long story to illustrate that what Bunty is talking about - Why does hobby lobby not have some morale and ethical objection to having the hundreds of thousands of chinese workers that produce the products they sell (that in all honesty, are probably toxic - go to the store and smell for yourself), for pennies a day which couldnt even be considered living wages by any Christian. Essentially, we all know they are modern day slaves. They are kept so poor, have to live in company barracks, beaten, abused, and disposed of as if they are worthless. To top it off, they have the 1 child rule and if you dont know about that by now, search the internet. For the more advanced workers who rise from the fray we;ve even seen the videos on the internet where they have the Chinese workers who assemble the iphone line up by the thousand for a chance to earn $20 dollars a month, while working 6 days a week, 12 hours a day. So just imagine how little someone making plastic flowers or halloween decorations for hobby lobby makes.

    But they want to say that there Christian faith hinders them from paying for the morning after pill - thats what Bunty and others find so hypocritical?

  18. #68

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    In context, this was a response to your question about employees making 'elective' decisions that the employer may have to pay for, with my point being there is not always a cut and mentioned are elective too.
    So, if your neighbor woild have gotten free birth control, she might not have had a tumor? Was she denied anything that the absence of caused her harm?

  19. #69

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Ah. *I see. It's the hypocrisy that is the issue. *If only HL sold only American-made products, then they would have a leg to stand on in this moral issue. *Only he who is without blame can throw the first stone, right? *Only those of us who live off the grid, compost, grow our own food and collect rainwater can contest any environmental policy or law, right? Wrong! *Even then, that "horse is already out of the gate". *It's the law of the land and there will be no opposition to it. *That will disappoint many on this board greatly. *If it's law, suck it up and comply. *Got it. *I hope those of us who oppose anything on so-called moral issues are prepared to do without electronics, sports shoes and most cheap clothing. *Oh! The hypocrisy of not being a saint and opposing something on moral grounds. *Is hypocrisy a calling card, like collectivism, Alinsky, and worthless meddling moderates? *If I use it two more times in this post, will I get my liberal union card? *Hypocrisy. Hypocrisy.

  20. #70

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake2 View Post
    Employers have certain legal responsibilities with regards to pay, working conditions, hours and now healthcare. An employers personal politics, religion, business practices and profitability are irrelevant when it comes to these responsibilities. The employer still has the personal right to practice his own religious beliefs and to practice free speech in speaking out against these responsibilities but he does not have right to break the law regarding his responsibilities to his employees.
    No, but he does have the right to contest the (recent, ramrodded through congress and not fully implemented) law thriugh legal channels available to him.

  21. #71

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    On the off chance that a pregnant woman develops a tumor, we should provide "well care" birth control, like immunizations. *Hey, it just occured to me how expensive that could be over the long term with pills. *As a cost-cutting method, we should probably just sterilize all women st a certain age. *Those wanting children can apply from a new government agency that collects the surplus from China, after, of course, they've had that plasticy smell removed. *That's a win-win! *As a bonus, we could control who gets to raise children, or at least whose village. *The application fee could help pay for the new (cabinet level) department of child patriation and distribution.

  22. #72

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    No, but he does have the right to contest the (recent, ramrodded through congress and not fully implemented) law thriugh legal channels available to him.
    And hopefully, we taxpayers have the right to get reimbursed for our legal fees when he loses.

  23. #73

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    In context, this was a response to your question about employees making 'elective' decisions that the employer may have to pay for, with my point being there is not always a cut and dried outcome to what one might 'elect,' be it the employer or the employee making those elections.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    So, if your neighbor woild have gotten free birth control, she might not have had a tumor? Was she denied anything that the absence of caused her harm?
    I have no idea what was available to her free or otherwise or what might have influenced her choices to elect to get pregnant. The point remains, she elected to get pregnant instead of electing to use birth control and may have done that even if birth control was free. Since you were focused on "elective" issues and seemed to say the employer should not be bound by them, again, what "elective" care would you allow an employer to deny? All of it? Everything I listed and more? Do you think under the current law the employer should be the one making that decision?

    Yes, husband left her and still does visitation with the physically healthy child. The woman is doing quite well now also, considering.

  24. #74

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Double Edge View Post
    And hopefully, we taxpayers have the right to get reimbursed for our legal fees when he loses.
    Right. Punish Mr. Green for daring to disagree with you, Pres. Obama, or Rep. Pelosi. *This would be a major misstep for our government. It would result in people being afraid to challenge laws both popular and unpopular through legal channels. I will bet that you (DE or dear reader) know of a law that you think is either unjust or illlegal. You would be foolhardy to attempt to challenge any law with the potential liability of a second set of legal expenses. No. *This isn't a frivolous lawsuit. *The government should bear full brunt of defending its edicts.**

  25. #75

    Default Re: Hobby Lobby business practices

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubya61 View Post
    Wrong! *
    How so? I just think its hypocritical for a company to come out against birth control for its employees 'because it goes against there christian beliefs', while being entirely supplied with the products that they sell that are made in a country that has had a very well documented history of forced abortions by its government and corporations.

    Corporations have tremendous power over who they can choose as suppliers, and where they manufacture their goods. Just reference how walmart drove suppliers to move a once huge manufacturing economy here in the United States to China within the span of 10 years. We can also see the resurgence (i myself have seen it) within the last two years where i am beginning to find multiple items at walmart that are now made in America. The best part is...they are the same price as the Chinese made items were a few years ago.

    So if you think hobby lobby with its 10 billion square feet of warehouse here in okc that has the hobby supply market dominated cant demand that there suppliers dont use slave labor that forces workers to get abortions. Well, then im wasting my time typing because you will be too incompetent to understand it anyway. Prunie.

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