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Thread: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

  1. #176

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Legislator eyes rail service from OKC to Tulsa
    By D. Ray Tuttle
    The Journal Record
    Posted: 08:13 PM Friday, January 14, 2011

    TULSA – There will be a push in the state Legislature this session to create passenger train service between Tulsa and Oklahoma City.

    State Rep. Richard Morrissette, D-Oklahoma City, said Friday he will file a bill in the state House of Representatives on Thursday, creating a task force to study the issue and draw up a plan to create a public-private partnership that would operate the rail line.

    “We all know as we enter the 21st century, connecting Tulsa to Oklahoma City via a passenger rail line is a no-brainer,” Morrissette said.

    Morrissette spoke Friday during a meeting at the Tulsa City Hall between city and legislative leaders, led by Evan Stair, executive director of Passenger Rail Oklahoma.

    The line would be an economic development tool for the state’s two largest cities and all the communities between them that would be able to take advantage of passenger rail service, Stair said.

    It is estimated it would cost $26 million to upgrade the rail line for passenger service, Stair said. Once running, it is estimated the upkeep would be between $1 million to $2 million annually. The Heartland Flyer, which runs 200 miles from Oklahoma City to Fort Worth, costs $2 million annually to operate.

    The line between Oklahoma City and Tulsa would be half that distance – about 100 miles.

    “Whatever the cost, it is not that great,” said District 2 Tulsa City Councilor Rick Westcott. “Expanding I-44 through Tulsa costs $150 million per mile. What if we could put that kind of money into a passenger rail line?”

    Morrissette said the issue has been studied ad nauseam.

    “The problem is that we will run up against stiff resistance due to the lack of money,” Morrissette said. State agencies are looking to slash budgets by as much as 10 percent.

    If Morrissette succeeds in creating the task force, he estimated it could begin work this fall and issue a report by June 2012.

    “Everyone wants it to happen sooner rather than later,” Westcott said.

    The rail line between Oklahoma City and Tulsa, much of which is already owned by the Oklahoma Department of Transportation, would run on a line roughly parallel to the Turner Turnpike. ODOT owns a rail line from Oklahoma City to Sapulpa. Burlington Northern Santa Fe owns the line from Sapulpa to Tulsa.

    The pieces are coming into place, Westcott said.

    A key piece fell into place last month, when ODOT received a $49.4 million grant to replace the Interstate 244 bridge over the Arkansas River in Tulsa. The I-244 bridge replacement project is considered critical to Tulsa’s proposed rail transit development plans, ODOT said.

    The project will include a new section of the westbound highway, two dedicated future rail lines in a double-decker-style bridge. The reconstructed bridge will be Tulsa’s first “multimodal” crossing to accommodate highway, pedestrian and bicycle traffic as well as a high-speed commuter rail.

    Design plans have been expedited. The rail line would travel at 80 mph to start, Stair said.

    “With upgrades, the speed could be increased to 120 mph,” Stair said.

    A round-trip ticket would cost $35, Stair said. Stair, who has been working on the issue for 10 years, suggested a public-private plan would ease the state’s cost.

    The grant, awarded under the Recovery Act’s Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery program, is designed to promote innovative transportation projects that provide economic and environmental benefits to a metropolitan area, region or the nation, ODOT said.

  2. #177

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Capcha: task force

  3. #178

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Tulsa will need to be thinking about a streetcar too, were this to occur. One of the problems with traveling to both cities via something other than car is that once you get there, there's no great way to get around. It would take a lot of land to create car rental agencies around the rail hub, and they're not very attractive.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Tulsa will need to be thinking about a streetcar too, were this to occur. One of the problems with traveling to both cities via something other than car is that once you get there, there's no great way to get around. It would take a lot of land to create car rental agencies around the rail hub, and they're not very attractive.
    Great opportunity for a small Smart car rental business. Rates by the hr. or day.

    BTW, cabs aren't that expensive in either OKC or Tulsa.

  5. #180

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    I just don't know if a Tulsa to OKC HSR is even feasable. It is only 90 miles and take just over an hour to drive. Even if HSR averaged 200 mph (not just top speed but average) it would only save 45 minutes and you would lose that by having to get to the train station early. Then there is the cost of a train ticket vs the cost of gasoline. A train ticket would cost about $100 round-trip so gas would have to go to $10 per gallon to make it cost effective, but if you have two people in the car gas would have to cost $20 per gallon. Now if they just want to expand the Hartland Flier to Tulsa (which is not HSR) then that is another story.

    Rail works great in Europe and Asia because traffic congestion is the big problem and many people don't even own a car.

  6. #181

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    I just don't know if a Tulsa to OKC HSR is even feasable. It is only 90 miles and take just over an hour to drive. Even if HSR averaged 200 mph (not just top speed but average) it would only save 45 minutes and you would lose that by having to get to the train station early. Then there is the cost of a train ticket vs the cost of gasoline. A train ticket would cost about $100 round-trip so gas would have to go to $10 per gallon to make it cost effective, but if you have two people in the car gas would have to cost $20 per gallon. Now if they just want to expand the Hartland Flier to Tulsa (which is not HSR) then that is another story.

    Rail works great in Europe and Asia because traffic congestion is the big problem and many people don't even own a car.
    I've ridden to Tulsa so many times in a confined car as a child and now driving myself as an adult, that it would be nice to sprawl out and relax or even walk around on a multicar passenger train while going to or coming from Tulsa. Also, when there's concerts up there, and the weather is inhospitable for you to drive but the train is in full working order, I'm sold! People will pay for this service.

  7. #182

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Tulsa will need to be thinking about a streetcar too, were this to occur. One of the problems with traveling to both cities via something other than car is that once you get there, there's no great way to get around. It would take a lot of land to create car rental agencies around the rail hub, and they're not very attractive.
    Very true, considering Tulsa can't even pay for their street lights I'm curious to see how they'd pull this off. I fully believe they're capable of it, they just need leadership with a good long-term vision and the ability to sell it.

  8. #183

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Superhyper View Post
    Very true, considering Tulsa can't even pay for their street lights I'm curious to see how they'd pull this off. I fully believe they're capable of it, they just need leadership with a good long-term vision and the ability to sell it.
    Rent a mini-van with three friends. Would you and three friends really pay $400 for a round trip to Tulsa? Heck, get 6 friends and rent a stretch lemo.

  9. #184

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    I just don't know if a Tulsa to OKC HSR is even feasable. It is only 90 miles and take just over an hour to drive. Even if HSR averaged 200 mph (not just top speed but average) it would only save 45 minutes and you would lose that by having to get to the train station early. Then there is the cost of a train ticket vs the cost of gasoline. A train ticket would cost about $100 round-trip so gas would have to go to $10 per gallon to make it cost effective, but if you have two people in the car gas would have to cost $20 per gallon. Now if they just want to expand the Hartland Flier to Tulsa (which is not HSR) then that is another story.

    Rail works great in Europe and Asia because traffic congestion is the big problem and many people don't even own a car.
    THIS.

    Also European cities are extremely walkable. Most of our cities west of the Mississippi are not. Why would I take a train to Tulsa or OKC if I have to rent a car once I am there? Dallas and Houston present the same problem - un-walkable sprawl.

  10. #185

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Basically, their talking about "Acela" trains. Not true European HSR.

    “With upgrades, the speed could be increased to 120 mph,” Stair said.

    If Tulsa also invested in a streetcar, Betts is right. It would connect the two densest areas of the state without the need for a rental car.

    In reality though, the real hidden message is connectivity through OKC to DFW. The same could be said for OKC to St. Louis. It really doesn't get practical until you factor a "third" city and realistically compete with regional airlines. IE- "the chaos and inconvience at airports."

  11. #186

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Pioneer View Post
    It really doesn't get practical until you factor a "third" city and realistically compete with regional airlines. IE- "the chaos and inconvience at airports."
    Something that I have always been interested in having explained is what the difference would be in going through security at a train station rather than an airport that would be more comfortable.

  12. #187

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    How many train stations have you been through? The security process is totally different, the most you generally see is randomized visits from sniffer dogs. The TSA has little to nothing to do with rail security, it's usually managed by Amtrak police or local contractors.

  13. #188

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    I haven't been through any honestly; thanks for the answer. Who's to say that if rail service became more prolific, the TSA wouldn't get more involved though?

  14. #189

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Superhyper View Post
    Very true, considering Tulsa can't even pay for their street lights I'm curious to see how they'd pull this off. I fully believe they're capable of it, they just need leadership with a good long-term vision and the ability to sell it.
    The streetlights have been back on for a few months.

  15. Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    America needs to re-emphasize rail travel. The OKC-TUlsa route wouldn't be so much for OKC citizens but for DFW and Tulsa folks. THe real dream would be an eventual extension to KC or St. Louis on the north and the Austin/San Antonio extension on the south. Then we'd be talkin!

  16. #191

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    Then there is the cost of a train ticket vs the cost of gasoline. A train ticket would cost about $100 round-trip so gas would have to go to $10 per gallon to make it cost effective, but if you have two people in the car gas would have to cost $20 per gallon. Now if they just want to expand the Hartland Flier to Tulsa (which is not HSR) then that is another story.

    How did you come up with that $100.00 figure, Kerry? A roundtrip from OKC to Fort Worth on Amtrak is less than that. Fares start at around $52.00 roundtrip for a trip that is more than twice as far. Fares on high speed rail could be higher but how can you judge?

  17. #192

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by ljbab728 View Post
    How did you come up with that $100.00 figure, Kerry? A roundtrip from OKC to Fort Worth on Amtrak is less than that. Fares start at around $52.00 roundtrip for a trip that is more than twice as far. Fares on high speed rail could be higher but how can you judge?
    I was just going by what other high speed rail system charge and then made it a little cheaper for Oklahoma. How much do you think a ticket would cost?

  18. #193

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    High speed trains in Europe always seem to cost about a euro per min.

    So my guess would be that this ticket to Tulsa (going 120 mph) would be about $50. Of course, the many trains in Europe go faster 120mph so maybe the price should be in the $40-45 range.

  19. #194

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by CaseyCornett View Post
    High speed trains in Europe always seem to cost about a euro per min.

    So my guess would be that this ticket to Tulsa (going 120 mph) would be about $50. Of course, the many trains in Europe go faster 120mph so maybe the price should be in the $40-45 range.
    each way right.

  20. #195

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    + cab on the Tulsa end to event, + cab back to station ... Probably could limo it for 4-8 at a fairly close price and not have that much more travel time, plus no strangers or kiddos in tow as travel companions

  21. #196

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    If OKC and Tulsa had their current population crammed into an area 1/5 the size then it would make sense to connect the two by rail. However, for those that are in favor of the idea, how many trains a day do you envision between the two cities and what are the hours of operation? Are we talking one train a day each way or 10 trains a day each way? Even at 10 trains a day that would be over one hour between trains - which would render the service useless since you could drive it faster than waiting for the next train. I also assume you will have to pay to park your car in downtown OKC while you take the train.

  22. Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by warreng88 View Post
    A round-trip ticket would cost $35, Stair said. Stair, who has been working on the issue for 10 years, suggested a public-private plan would ease the state’s cost.
    Reading comprehension, people.

  23. #198

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by CuatrodeMayo View Post
    Reading comprehension, people.
    You win.

  24. #199

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by CuatrodeMayo View Post
    Reading comprehension, people.
    You got me there but I don't think that price is realistic. Anyone who can look at the current allignment of the existing rail line and then say with a straight face that it can be turned into a high speed line with just a few modifications is not playing with a full deck. The tracks crosses about 1000 streets at grade, goes through the heart of small towns, and has hundreds of turns. For HSR that route is completely useless.

  25. #200

    Default Re: High-speed rail to link Tulsa\OKC\Dallas and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
    You got me there but I don't think that price is realistic. Anyone who can look at the current allignment of the existing rail line and then say with a straight face that it can be turned into a high speed line with just a few modifications is not playing with a full deck. The tracks crosses about 1000 streets at grade, goes through the heart of small towns, and has hundreds of turns. For HSR that route is completely useless.
    Kerry, I looked up prices for four adults (one of them 62+ for a whopping $3.77 discount each way) and for all of us to FTW and back to OKC (twice the distance to Tulsa) it was $200.20. You just can't beat that. That's $25 a pop. I think the reason the Tulsa ticket would cost $35 is to pay back the $20 million spent to upgrade that line. It's joint track and has a lot of curves which makes the current top speed on it probably a max of 45 miles per hour. They're talking about 80mph. That's a lot of straightening. Oh and just like OKC/FTW, FTW/OKC, it'd only be one train a day (down and back or in the case of Tulsa, over and back).
    Last edited by OKCisOK4me; 01-18-2011 at 11:18 AM. Reason: One last thought..

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