Hill, The

[jbrown84]

Aside from having luxury fixtures, appliances, etc, I don't think the construction itself is of that much quality.I hope they are better than Legacy Woods apartments, but they are definitely not the same construction quality seen in for ex. Manhattan.

Are you referring to The Hill specifically? Because The Brownstones at Maywood Park are extremely well-built. I'd say as good as any residential in the country.

As they are right now, those condos gives you a perception of urban living, but like many other people have suggested, the area is not "Urban" yet. So you are basically buying a perception, a very pricey perception. At least that's how i see it. If they had similar condominium constructions in the busiest and better looking parts of Edmond, like certain parts of Broadway Ave, on 2nd St (from Broadway to Bryant) and/or 15th and Bryant, I would buy them without thinking I am missing out. Those sections of Edmond have more life than Deep Deuce's current developments.

What exactly would you be walking to from a condo on 2nd Street? Some antique stores? Around the Corner? That crappy Homeland (oh wait, that's gone)? Only thing I can think of that appeals to young professionals in that area is the Jazz Lab.

From any of the Deep Deuce area condos or apartments, you can reasonably walk to

Sage
The Wedge
Deep Deuce Grill
Jimmy John's
OBU Graduate School
Maywood Park
[Untitled] Artspace
Iguana
Pachinko
Sara Sara
Coffee Slingers
Rawhide
Broadway Wine Merchants
Red Prime
Bicycle Alley
Schlegal's Bikes
Downtown YMCA
OU Health Science Center
The Mantel
Nonna's
Crabtown
The Store at Bricktown (convenience store)
Tapwerks
Bricktown Brewery
America's Pub
SkkyBar
Mickey Mantle's
The Bricktown Ballpark
Wormy Dog
Bolero
RedPin
Drinkz
Biting Sow
Abuelos
Coco Flow
City Walk
Harkins Theatres
Starbucks
Ford Center
Civic Center Music Hall
Stage Center
Myriad Gardens
OKC Museum of Art (including Cocktails on the Roof and art/indie films)
deadCENTER Film Fest
Festival of the Arts
all the Bricktown music festivals
Ghouls Gone Wild
and numerous employers

[MIKELS129]

Nobody is talking about forcing anyone. In fact, I believe price is more of a factor on why those units aren't sold than the housing market itself. I think some of the units that were sold intially had to do more with the hype and belief that prices will eventually soar, making it a good investment. I do not buy one, because I think it'll be a bad investment on my part. If prices were around $150 - $175 sq. ft, I'll be looking into purchasing a unit.

Construction in Midtown for single new homes are being built at $200 sq/ft not including lot price. Material costs are inflating and if you can get construction financing it comes with strings making it very expensive. Quality multi housing construction is more costly. Good Luck with that $150 to $175 sq. ft. Maybe you should consider Sycamore Square.

[Soho]

Betts.... You do a great job selling urban living in downtown Okc. I'm surprised you are the only one that posts on this topic. Do we not have more people on OkcTalk that live in downtown?



I feel like Betts is always having to defend where she chooses to live.

Being Bett's neighbor, I feel qualified to respond. All of her points are on target and having lived in the Brownstones for a year and a half now, my wife and I couldn't be happier.

- No more commute from Oaktree every day, which saves us ~$10,000/ year.
- Association dues 80% less.
- No need to pay for parking.
- Due to quality of construction and foot thick walls our utility bills are 1/2 of previous
- More peace of mind during tornado season, again due to foot thick walls.
- Geothermal heat and air, with no noisy, expensive to maintain outside condenser.
- Cheaper homeowner's insurance.
- Outdoor living area overlooking downtown
- No trees to trim.
- No lawn to care for and waste precious water.
- Walking distance to our Doctors, pharmacy, cleaners, tag agency, museums, cafes, movies... etc.
- Bike trail access, in lieu of dodging rude and dangerous drivers.
- More social interaction due to a more walking friendly environment.
- Live concerts in BT on Thursday nights.
- Thunder games without the hassle of parking.
- Baseball games 2 blocks away
- Great neighbors.
- Various parades nearby.
- No maintenance to speak of, slate roof, concrete casement windows, All brick exterior, copper guttering, etc.
- Commercial grade fire sprinkler system.
- Elevator for our senior years, which in the meantime is used for elderly relatives and to carry groceries.

I could go on and on but a couple of important points - Quality is quality no matter where you buy. I travel extensively for business and pleasure and have compared what we have here with other cities. To replace our home with one of the same quality in Denver is $3M, Houston $2M, Manhattan $12-15M, San Francisco $8-10M, Dallas $2M. And before I get flamed about quality of life and amenities in these cities, let me say I have lived in Dallas and Denver and choose to live here and visit there. Without exaggeration, I have regained 2-3 hours of my life EVERYDAY since moving downtown!

Second, One of the most common questions I get from visitors is, "don't you get tired of the stairs"? After questioning them, most admit they pay $50- $100 a month to work out on a stair-master at a health club.

For 7 years my offices were located on McKinney Ave. in the uptown area of Dallas. I saw it transform from what looked like Berlin after the war, to a bustling vibrant area with thousands of residents. I'm convinced the same will happen here. We have gone as much as 3 weeks without needing to start the car, I would recommend this lifestyle to anyone, except those with children needing a yard.

[jbrown84]

Great testimony Soho! Thanks for that.

[Spartan]

Without exaggeration, I have regained 2-3 hours of my life EVERYDAY since moving downtown!

Wow, what a quote.

It still shocks me that urban tenets such as downtown living and mixed-uses still need convincing. Sheesh people. Join the 21st Century already.

As for The Hill, not my favorite downtown project, but I will say its success is very important to downtown--especially now that it has eaten up virtually all of the usable street frontage available on that site. With Ellison Park we would already have had a development that is bustling, but as least it's moving forward and sales have impressively defied logic, so maybe it will be finished within the next 20 years at this rate. That's great news. The last 5 years..24/157 units done..7 sold. Obviously no presales are going on, but that is to be expected when the price tag is this high.

In defense of people critical of this project, I will say it's not about criticizing urban living or paying a LOT to live downtown, we all GET that..hopefully, or at least people should, it's really not that hard to understand. What makes me critical of this project is that I'm really not that big a fan of the urban design, I think the facades are kinda cheesy, I think they look cheap esp compared to the similarly priced Brownstones, and I am still sour over the selection process..the project should not have been chosen when there are so many questions over whether downtown can actually absorb so many $600,000 condos, when what we know downtown NEEDS is apartments (96% occupancy rate downtown) and mixed-use...

[metro]

According to OKC.biz Executive Home sales, 2 more units sold at The Joke, err I mean The Hill at "Bricktown"

[Pete]

From the County Assessor's site, it looks like they've now sold 7 of the 32 built.

Last one sold was for $381K.

[Architect2010]

I have a question with people that have beef with The Hill. I've driven by and around the site many times before. I understand that before the proposal was chosen there was another that was many times "better" with mixed-usage and the sorts, but what is so entirely bad about The Hill that you guys call it suburban and "The Joke"? Especially when the next street over you've got the Deep Deuce Apartments that have an open paved parking lot behind EVERY building. It seems to me that The Hill is in fact more urban. It fronts all of it's respective streets, it hides it's parking via interior garages and corridors. It's design is quality and very urban looking even if it's perpetuates the "faux" look. I just don't understand how we can attack one development when in the same exact neighborhood you've got lesser quality construction, open parking lots, gated parking, and stucco-backed apartments? And please, because I know some one will think this, I am not degrading the Deep Deuce Apartments; I genuinely appreciate their aesthetics and pioneering of the Deep Deuce District.

I don't love The Hill either, but come on. Some of the criticism holds no water. Just a long-lingering thought.

[Spartan]

I think we're getting too defensive here anytime someone criticizes downtown. Fact is, while it will be truly urban very shortly, as long as there are just as many mud pits as developed sites left downtown, it's far from achieving a sufficiently urban feel, or at least enough to satisfy people who are looking for that little bit of Seattle in OKC.

[okclee]

The biggest problem with The Hill is the size of this project being awarded to one developer for one single type of housing unit. The overall quality and design is not the problem, but having one developer sitting on this size of development is. Okc needs developers to compete for customers, either buyers or renters.

[betts]

The problem is: no one anticipated the economic meltdown, especially in the housing market. Real estate is so faddish. A few years ago everyone was gaga about the concept of people buying higher density real estate than is usually available in Oklahoma City. Now everyone thinks rentals are where it's at, and the level of enthusiasm for them reminds me of that we saw for downtown "for sale" housing a few years ago. The market could quite easily turn and people will again be looking to buy downtown and the rental market could end up overbuilt, with developers having empty units they can't rent. This whole trend of following the latest fad needs to be tempered by the realization that building projects like this take several years, and in the space of several years, the real estate market can change. I don't think it's unreasonable to build smaller units, since that is what seems to be selling best downtown, but if I were a developer, I'd be thinking of the sales and rental market and I'd build for flexibility.

I agree with Architect. Although The Hill is not my favorite project, and I really dislike the way they look from the rear, I think in the end we'll all be glad there is some residential housing in that area that's not rental. They've done a very nice job of landscaping, and it's nice to see people there, walking their dogs, participating in the neighborhood. Deep Deuce is not very well maintained in terms of landscaping and trash pickup. People who rent are less concerned about dropping trash in their yard and on the street, we've noticed. When we walk our dog, we basically spend the walk picking up trash left by residents of Deep Deuce. We don't see that in the developments that are for sale.

[Architect2010]

I think we're getting too defensive here anytime someone criticizes downtown.

I wasn't getting defensive. Like I said, that was a long-lingering thought on my part and I wanted to see input. I see now, that the criticism of The Hill wasn't based on it's aesthetics and layout like I had thought, but merely the programming and development of the plot itself.

[Pete]

There are lots of lingering bad feelings for how OCURA handled the selection process, which has been well covered in other threads.

Also, now "the economy" is getting blamed for every failure but this project was well underway before any of that and was doomed from the start for lots of reasons. They opened and closed a sales/design center before the mortgage meltdown and just couldn't market the properties. Which, of course, was not surprising to those of us that followed this from the beginning.

And finally, the once-developers chose to put townhouses in the only area where mixed-use would make sense, completely f-ing up the remaining property.


Now that they are built, I hope they sell but this whole process has been a calamity and still infuriates me.

[Rover]

It seems to me that the mixed use planned next to the new ALoft hotel is in a much better location than the Hill anyway. It will be more central to all the housing developments. I don't think the Hill is an abomination like some people. It is an alternative that will be part of the quilt that is "downtown" OKC. Until the infill completes we will continue to have these types of developments. When land is gone and the land becomes more valuable then the structures will go multi-floor and the urbanists will get their desire for high density and mixed use. It will be driven by demand economics. Til then, there is plenty of open space to build the mixed use so many want to see. The Hill is gone, so let's get on to the next one and make sure we support it properly.

[Pete]

I agree Rover but the point should be made that only 25% of The Hill property has been developed, so there needs to be a plan for the remainder:

[Architect2010]

Is there not one? I had thought that financing was obtained again and the original scope of work would be continued. Is that not the case? If it is then here is the site plan according to their website. If not, then someone enlighten me.



They would be getting close to the end of Phase 1 now.

[Pete]

They stopped Phase I for almost a year, then went forward to at least finish some of it. Phase I was to be 47 units and 32 have been finally finished.

But, I'm very sure the current developer (if they are still even involved) will not be doing anything more. The balance of the land is still owned by OCURA.

[Architect2010]

So the financing they had obtained to move forward was just to complete the units that had already been started? I had assumed it was for the completion of the project as a whole. A bit late to the game, but that bums me out.

[Pete]

I'm absolutely sure it was only to finish the units that had been started.

In fact, OCURA now owns some of the finished units, which tells me Canfield's group that started this development is now out of it other than holding title to some of the unsold homes.

[betts]

I tried to find an appropriate thread in which to post this, but couldn't. So new thread.

After a two-year drought in Oklahoma City's downtown housing market, developer Grant Humphreys is once again celebrating closings with buyers.

STEVE LACKMEYER, BUSINESS WRITER

Developer 'stays the course' with housing plans

With a master plan for 157 for-sale residences, The Hill was the most ambitious downtown housing development when it was launched, and it was hit hard by the national recession.
Construction halted just as the first units were preparing to sell. But in recent weeks construction workers have returned to NE 2 and Russell Perry Avenue, and developer Bill Canfield reports sales are picking up. To date seven of the townhomes have sold and Canfield said he is seeing an increase in buyer interest. Another 14 units are finished and three more are set to be ready for sale within the next six weeks. "Overall, we are glad to have sold seven urban homes in this sluggish economy,” Canfield said. "As is the case with other residential developments downtown, the economy severely impacted our financing and time lines.”

Canfield believes patience is the best course ahead. He also believes he and fellow developers were "way too ambitious” with their original plans. "We are staying the course because we do believe the market for upscale urban homes such as what we offer at The Hill will rebound in due time,” Canfield said. "Our signature development is exactly what we need downtown for the influx of executives to companies such as Devon and SandRidge over the next many years.”

But such closings are requiring a variety of strategies from Humphreys and other developers looking to thaw a market hurt not by local dynamics but by the national recession.

Read more: http://www.newsok.com/developers-swi...#ixzz12utygX9B

[adaniel]

The 2 condos available for sale near me in Midtown, whcih have sat on the market for months now with no activity, have had a couple of lookey loos in the past few days. I think the main issue is that banks are so skittish on lending money to condos. As far as my condo building is concerned its dangerously close to the 50% ownership rate cutoff that makes FHA financing unavailable. That could be an issue for all downtown projects in the future.

Hopefully with the economy improving a thaw will continuie. Downtown has a better future trajectory than any other area in the city.

[warreng88]

Sticking to the plan: The Hill developers plot progress on townhomes
By Brianna Bailey
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter - Contact 405-278-2847
Posted: 07:09 PM Wednesday, November 17, 2010

OKLAHOMA CITY – After a slow start due to the downturn in the housing market, the developers of the upscale Hill at Bricktown housing development are optimistic they can start building another 18 units and a clubhouse in the next 15 months.

On Wednesday, broker Michael Biddinger, who is marketing the property at 322 NE Second St., presented plans to the Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority on how the development will proceed over the next year and a half.

While other downtown housing development projects halted by a downturn turned their eyes toward rental units when the condo market dried up, The Hill plans to keep its units for sale, Biddinger said in an interview Wednesday.

“Our owners are not interested in just capitalizing on downtown housing, whether it be for rent or for sale,” Biddinger said. “They’re interested in developing for-sale, quality product.”

Seven townhome-style units at The Hill have sold since November 2009, and Biddinger expects to have another three under contract by the end of the year.

The Hill is being developed by biotech and real estate entrepreneur William Canfield.

Construction on the 157-unit, $75 million complex wedged between Bricktown and Interstate 235 came to a standstill when the housing market crashed two years ago. The project’s financing dried up, but construction resumed late last year. So far, 24 units at The Hill have been completed and another eight are under construction.

At that pace, it will take years for the entire complex to rise out of the ground, JoeVan Bullard, executive director of the Urban Renewal Authority, said in an interview.

“But the economy is picking up a little,” Bullard said.

The high-end townhouses at The Hill, which range in price from $350,000 to $815,000 for 1,650 square feet to 3,700 square feet, are attracting young professionals and empty-nesters, Biddinger said.

[Spartan]

It would be near impossible for them to market those units as for-rent properties anyway.

[betts]

I noticed a "pending" sign on another one in the last week. It may be that they're more of what people in Oklahoma City want in a townhouse. Since the entire living space is on the first floor of the one's selling, with the bedrooms upstairs, they feel just like a small house. I don't think they're any cheaper per square foot than the brownstones, but since they're smaller the end result is that they're less expensive to purchase: no jumbo loan with jumbo downpayment required.

[soonerguru]

The problem is: no one anticipated the economic meltdown, especially in the housing market. Real estate is so faddish. A few years ago everyone was gaga about the concept of people buying higher density real estate than is usually available in Oklahoma City. Now everyone thinks rentals are where it's at, and the level of enthusiasm for them reminds me of that we saw for downtown "for sale" housing a few years ago. The market could quite easily turn and people will again be looking to buy downtown and the rental market could end up overbuilt, with developers having empty units they can't rent. This whole trend of following the latest fad needs to be tempered by the realization that building projects like this take several years, and in the space of several years, the real estate market can change. I don't think it's unreasonable to build smaller units, since that is what seems to be selling best downtown, but if I were a developer, I'd be thinking of the sales and rental market and I'd build for flexibility.

I agree with Architect. Although The Hill is not my favorite project, and I really dislike the way they look from the rear, I think in the end we'll all be glad there is some residential housing in that area that's not rental. They've done a very nice job of landscaping, and it's nice to see people there, walking their dogs, participating in the neighborhood. Deep Deuce is not very well maintained in terms of landscaping and trash pickup. People who rent are less concerned about dropping trash in their yard and on the street, we've noticed. When we walk our dog, we basically spend the walk picking up trash left by residents of Deep Deuce. We don't see that in the developments that are for sale.

Betts, I have to disagree. The housing meltdown was being discussed as early as 2004, when the market was clearly juiced beyond all comprehension. Yes, it was presaged, even if Alan Greenspan pooh-poohed it at the time (while praising ARMs as a mortgage instrument). Greenspan has since admitted he was very wrong and played a key role in screwing the country.