The main reason I am joining these sites is to get the word out and to do whatever I have to in order to stop the adoption before justice can be done. Once they adopt him out we will never know where he is or if he is even being cared for properly.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
The main reason I am joining these sites is to get the word out and to do whatever I have to in order to stop the adoption before justice can be done. Once they adopt him out we will never know where he is or if he is even being cared for properly.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Dana I know you've answered a lot of questions but I don't remember your stating the basis for their decision to terminate? How long has the baby now been in DHS custody? Are they offering you a jury trial? What does your atty say?Who is your DA?
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
East Coast Okie, My replies have>
“Truth be told, however, the families DHS works with tend to be nuts”
“I'll just say it. Many are drug addicts, mentally ill or social misfits”
“that the dregs of society tend to bring to the table. 99% of them are the dregs of society. Let me repeat that.
“Fact is, a child doesn't end up in foster care without a pretty good reason. Fact is, a lot of the families who lose their kids are nutty.”
crazy, addicted, maladjusted or otherwise dysfunctional families
“There are always problems in the system, especially when they serve a largely dysfunctional population.”
>Those are your words, anyone can review the post to confirm it. I ask again who and with what qualifications were these diagnosis of “mental illness” or “nuts” made.
These are your words;
Those among us who are functioning just fine can't imagine the lives many of these folks live. They are in and out of jail, rehab, relationships, jobs, never have transportation, frequently change residences and their kids' schools,
>I think this is another very opinionated and judgmental statement, much like your “dregs of society” statement. Many of the situations you mention are often a result of socioeconomic status, which has many variables involved. Then you add, “and an amazing number are on pain medication from "back" pain.” Is that meant to say a lot of lazy fakers or druggies are involved, (if so then many Dr.s will need to be arrested for writing bad prescriptions if there are no valid indicators of need)or maybe it just figures that people with injuries or illnesses are more likely to be involved because many times they're at a lower socioeconomic level.
You have given your “professional opinion” now please give your professional credentials or qualifications that your statements are based on.
Your words;
Parents who lose their kids due to abuse are furious that they have to pay child support for their upkeep after the state has to step in to keep them safe.
>If the children have been taken for their safety as you say then the “reasonable efforts” requirement of federal law has supposedly been fore filled and those children are in foster care and the state is receiving receiving foster care payments from the federal government for their care. Evidence in the class action suit and other lawsuits here indicate all the funds were not being payed out at proper amounts. So DHS isn't paying out the funding it receives and at the same time judges who are aware the child is supposed to be getting funds for care order the parents to pay DHS child support. And since it's clear the money isn't getting to the children this would certainly indicate a need for a full financial audit that our legislature refuses to do. It should be noted that such an audit brought down the director of the Office of Juvenile Affairs do to $20 million in questionable contracts as well as over $1 million in “bad” contracts. The feds have now taken over operations of some of the agencies functions. By the way the “Drug Court system” was audited and also revealed “financial questions” There's a lot of money unaccounted for in many areas and a scandal was revealed just a couple of years ago that revealed “Ghost Employees” in our state Health and Human Services agency. So I guess it's fair to say that in Ok. claims of corruption where it hasn't been revealed yet are more than just “standard fare for paranoid, mentally ill parents.” it's business as usual in Ok. Government.
Your words;
Most of the states have been in the process of reviewing children's rights to attorneys or gals for the past fifteen or more years. Some are further in the process than others. Some have encouraged it but then cut back.
>In re: Gault, the USSC laid out due process for minors in juvenile Court, state courts either comply or they are violating Constitutional Law, Civil Rights, and Federal Laws Title 18 sec.241-242 as an example.
Your words;
Some have even suggested the judges got a cut. When you start going down that road, there is really no point in even trying to have a discussion.
>Why do you say that? Are Judges beyond reproach or above the law?Interesting facts about Ok., in the 1960's we had the biggest judicial scandal in the nations history, more than a couple of judges have been removed from the bench in just the last year and last I knew we had one on trial for felony sexual assault. Next we don't know what judges are getting because only Supreme Court Justices have to file financial disclosure forms in Ok, lower judges don't. There have been calls for it in the past but it hasn't happened. If they're innocent and have nothing to hide they shouldn't mind should they? Isn't that what we're told when the court wants information from us? I believe judges have their own retirement plan also, separate from other government employees, why?
Your words;
I'm aware of what you are reporting in your post although don't agree with all your conclusions.
>You're aware lawyer/GALs are not for filling their duties, one of which is meeting with the child and investigating their situation or placement? Yet if the child is injured, raped, or killed you don't agree that they bear some responsibility? They have neglected their fiduciary duty, their professional code, and oath if they're lawyers. And if not they're under qualified CASA volunteers who should never have that level of responsibility anyway.
Your words;
“You can't build an individual case just because there are problems in the system.”
>I'm not attempting to, you have it reversed. Individual cases like Dana's, the Hall case and many more where there is evidence to prove facts and not just the subjective opinions of those in the system who might believe themselves above or superior to others. These facts build the case against the system.
Your words;
If you could change the job requirements - what would you change them to? Okay. And after that, how are you going to recruit workers for the salaries available?
>Put child abuse and neglect back in the criminal Court where they belong, they are crimes, and nobody working as a “child welfare specialist” at DHS is qualified to investigate crimes. Their testimony would be thrown out of Criminal Court as would most things that are allowed in Juvenile Court. Let DHS serve the poor and needy as they are supposed to and not act beyond their scope of qualifications. With the police handling any crimes that there is “probable cause” to investigate there will be a lot less for DHS to handle. Then we can start to deal with the scandal of background checks not being done, (and the embezzlement suit against the director over it) as well as why so many DHS workers and foster parents have been convicted of crimes recently, or why day cares with multiple abuse complaints and records of violations were not shut down.
Your words;
How much it costs for counseling, especially home based counseling, per child? per family? Most people have absolutely no idea the mind boggling expense involved with providing services to needy families.
>These things relate to service providers that have contracts with the state. There has been corruption involving service providers in other states and as I pointed out earlier contracts like this is where problems were found in the Office of Juvenile Affairs. So if we ever get that audit and have some accountability in the system, (where it's known others involved aren't doing their jobs) to make sure who's doing what and to be able to find the true cost and where the money's going.
Your words;
My professional opinion is that serving as defense counsel and GAL is a bad idea - too many conflicts.
>I would think you would know it's against the law in Ok. For the child's lawyer to be the GAL.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
There reason was going to be failure to protect. They have had my grandson since July 18th. Now we are going for something called a bench trial and our DA is David Prater. The lawyer says nothing you can't even get her on the phone or get her to call you back.Originally Posted by angel27
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Recent news headlines in Oklahoma:
DHS to pay for handling case in a negligent manner
NEWSCHANNEL 4 OKLAHOMA CITY -- The State of Oklahoma will pay $160,000 for the death of a two-year-old. A judge decided the Oklahoma Department of Human Services handled the care of the child in a negligent manner. Keenan Taylor died after having boiling water poured on him in 2005.
DHS wants curtailed discovery process
Associated Press TULSA, Okla. - The Oklahoma Department of Human Services wants to curtail the pretrial discovery process in a lawsuit that seeks top-to-bottom reform of the state's child welfare system. The lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court in Tulsa in February.
DHS worker accused of failing to report abuse
ASSOCIATED PRESS OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) - A state Department of Human Services employee is being charged with misdemeanor failure to report child abuse. Bernadette Mwangi is accused of failing to report the sexual abuse of a 14-year-old foster child after seeing the girl's foster father kiss her.
Lawsuit against DHS seeks changes in state child welfare system
Associated Press TULSA, Okla. - A national child advocacy group, four Oklahoma law firms and an international law firm have filed a federal class action lawsuit against the Oklahoma Department of Human Services. The lawsuit by the group Children's Rights and the five law firms was filed...
DHS falls behind on child abuse investigations
Associated Press OKLAHOMA CITY - State Department of Human Services officials say they're taking longer to complete investigations of child abuse and neglect complaints because they can't keep enough employees. Records show DHS had 363 child welfare cases pending for more than 60 days in...
Grandmother says DHS warned before death of child
Associated Press OKLAHOMA CITY - An Oklahoma City woman says she warned the Department of Human Services that her nearly two-year-old granddaughter was in danger less than a week before the girl died. Olivia Scroggins died at an Oklahoma City hospital Monday and her mother and the mother's...
State DHS head under investigation for son's burns
ASSOCIATED PRESS OKLAHOMA CITY - The head of the state Department of Human Services is under investigation because of burns his son suffered on a family trip. Howard Hendrick confirms the attorney general's office is investigating and says he's cooperating. A DHS spokeswoman say 13 year old...
DHS fires two workers over alleged tax fraud
Associated Press OKLAHOMA CITY - The Oklahoma Department of Human Services has fired three workers over allegations of a tax fraud scam. The employees are accused in termination papers of claiming children of department clients as dependents in order to increase tax refunds. The three workers...
DHS workers file discrimination complaint
ASSOCIATED PRESS OKLAHOMA CITY -- Six investigators in the civil rights division of the state Department of Human Services are filing a discrimination complaint against their former boss. The six accuse Sherleen Jackson of creating a hostile and intimidating work environment and say they've been...
DHS worker says he was punished for reporting illegal immigrants
ASSOCIATED PRESS OKLAHOMA CITY -- A state Department of Human Services worker says he was punished for trying to report illegal immigrants who were applying for state benefits. Steve Thomas told the House Revenue and Taxation Committee he tried to follow a rule requiring memos be written to DHS...
Missing DHS children
CHEROKEE BALLARD REPORTING OKLAHOMA CITY -- A NewsChannel 4 investigation reveals the state's inability to keep up with all of the children that are in state custody. Cherokee Ballard found out how many kids are missing and why there are no active searches for them. When a child is in custody...
Former DHS worker accused of giving alcohol, drugs to minors
ASSOCIATED PRESS NORMAN, Okla. -- A former Department of Human Services worker who was in Norman for a training session is now accused of providing alcohol and drugs to two teenage boys in a Norman motel room. Karrie Lyn Martin of Duncan was arrested after a witness told police Martin had sex...
Now, tap your heals together three times and and repeat after me... there's no place like DHS...there's no place like DHS.
(source: KFOR Search)
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
W. Moore, I stand behind all my words. They are what they are.
Just in passing, let me note that just because DHS can deal with child abuse civilly, the law already allows for criminal penalities to attach. They are simply two separate areas of law and remedy. Once DHS has to prove abuse or neglect beyond a reasonable doubt you can kiss goodbye any protections in place for a huge number of children. Without a civil finding of abuse or neglect to hold over the parents' head, forget about court ordered counseling, parenting classes, etc. A lot of kids who think their parents will go to jail won't testify. They WILL testify if they know that the parents are simply facing civil penalties and will be required to go to counseling or therapy or something like that.
W. Moore, how much time and energy have you spend dealing with families whose children are brought within the DHS system? Do you think I am opinionated because you don't like to think that people are the way I've described, or because you have walked down the same corridors and seen something different? I don't know anything about you and for all I know, you work with these folks all the time and have come to a different conclusion. So which is it? Are you going on opinion, perhaps based on nothing more than your world view? Or are you basing your position on experience with this population? It makes a difference if you are looking for solutions to a difficult problem.
In the trenches, knowing what you are dealing with is essential. I learned a long time ago to call it straight and not jerk families around being "nice" when, in fact, you are dealing with a bad situation and no one is addressing it. You do no favors to a child to reassure her mother, who is drunk every night, that you know she "means well" and you know she "loves her child" and leave it at that. At a certain point, that is a waste of time and time is not something a young child has. You say, "Lady, your drinking has placed your child in danger. You are exposing her to unsavory characters and are too drunk to protect her or care for her properly. Give up the booze or the baby - your choice." I don't believe in jerking around families. Nine times out of ten, there are some pretty straight forward things they can do that will help a situation, even if it won't completely cure it. Make the kids go to school. Get a job. Clean your house. Take your child to the doctor (that is paid for by the state so it is not like it is costing you). Get up and moving before 9:00 in the morning. Dress for the weather. Take a frickin' bath. Wash their clothes, in the sink if you have to. Don't leave your kids with strangers. Don't call the cops everytime you get mad. Don't throw things everytime you get mad. Read to your child and if you can't read, play a recording you can get from the librairy. Tell them a story. Take a walk with them. Shut off the TV and spend time with them. Quit drinking all the time. Go to AA. If you have to tell someone that, they aren't functioning too well. A lot of these families don't do even this much and that is not counting the ones who are actually abusing them.
I stand by my words that the folks who tend to end up with kids in the system by and large, are dysfunctional, either through mental illness, substance abuse or just because they are dysfunctional. Not all of them, but most of them who end up with a conviction.
Jacodenn, the vast number of headlines you have posted are nothing but accusations and charges, negligence (vs. deliberate). Of COURSE there are bad apples in DHS. There are bad apples everywhere. How about putting up the articles about all the babies out there killed by dirthead parents (and their boyfriends) or the one about that poor baby who was eaten by the puppy in Tulsa when her mama slept in? Does that mean that all parents are bad?
I suspect if Dana's grandbaby were given back to the family and, heaven forbid, harmed, a lot of the same people wringing their hands over how mean DHS is to Dana would then switch and use that as evidence that DHS is incompetent, or worse. It is not an easy decision to decide if a child is safe with its family, sometimes.
Sounds like they have not even had a trial on the merits in Dana's case which is frustrating to me because she claimed DHS had stolen the child and were giving it away in an illegal adoption. Apparently, this is a complete misrepresentation of what is happening in the case, so far. I am not sure how you get from "DHS stole the child and are going to give it away for an adoption subsidy" to - "they have brought charges, the child is in care and we have a trial coming up to see what the judge says." (quoted material is actually just paraphrases).
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Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Sleeping mom in Claremore accused of rolling onto baby
CLAREMORE — A 21-year-old mother was arrested on a manslaughter complaint this weekend, accused of rolling over on her 6-week-old daughter while the two were sleeping on the floor, according to police
Kristi Nicole Hiser appeared to be intoxicated when she was arrested Saturday morning at a Claremore apartment complex, police Lt. Chuck Goad said.
"We believe that the mother, during her sleep, rolled over on the baby, causing its death,” Goad said.
The state medical examiner has not determined an official cause of death, and the local district attorney has not filed charges in the case, he said. Blood alcohol level tests on the mother are pending, Goad said.
Goad said the death of Trinity Hiser appeared accidental. The mother and baby were sleeping on blankets on the living room floor when the mother awoke to discover her baby wasn't breathing, Goad said.
He said Kristi Nicole Hiser's roommate called 911 to report the incident about 7:45 a.m. Saturday. The infant was driven to Claremore Regional Hospital and died a short time later, Goad said.
Dangers of co-sleeping
Goad said it is dangerous for adults to sleep in the same spaces as babies.
"They are so small. It is not a good idea to put an infant in bed with you,” he said. "They don't have the strength to roll over if you accidentally roll them over on their face.”
The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission released a study in 1999 that found an average of 64 deaths per year of children younger than 2 are caused by strangulation or suffocation that occurs when parents sleep with their babies.
The federal commission also warns parents against sleeping with their child in an adult bed — or co-sleeping — because it can result in strangulation or suffocation.
Proponents of co-sleeping say mothers and babies get more rest and form stronger bonds when they sleep in the same bed, especially since the baby can breast-feed more frequently.
They argue the practice can be safe if mothers are aware of safe sleeping positions and bedding.
Mothers should never sleep beside their babies if they are smokers, even if they don't smoke in bed, or have been using any substances that would make them drowsy or not alert, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics.
" You've Been Thunder Struck ! "
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Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Ok as far as misrepresentation goes I did not misrepresent anything I told the facts as they are. I also realize you are like one of those people that I mentioned earlier you could be hit with it like a pie in the face and you will still defend DHS no matter what. God himself could come down here and tell you what is going on and you still wouldn't believe it. Well that is your choice it is a free country at least for some anyway. I am open minded enough to say that there are some children who don't need to be with their parents that is why I took care of 3 children that weren't even mine with no help from DHS I might add. However I am not one of those people I happen to be the exception to your so called rule but you refuse to see it. To bad you are not as open minded as I am. I understand that you work with DHS so of course you have to cover for them. According to your posts the only guilty workers of wrong doing are only the ones that get caught. I can say this because even when Mr. Moore showed the exerpts from the law suits you deny those too. It seems you are more worried about protecting DHS workers then those poor babies who died in their care and that is the real shame in all this those poor children. Who is going to care about the children and you can continue to call me a lier or crazy even though the proof is staring you in the face but the fact is these children are still dead and are still being abused.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
I agree the big point here is the mother had been drinking other people who should not sleep with there children are people known to be hard sleepers. I have a sister that when she sleeps a freight train couldn't wake her. I slept with both of my children but as you posted there is a safe way to do it. I personally know hundreds of people who have done it and those children now have children of their own.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
I hope you are not trying to say that I would hurt my grandson I have never hurt a child in my life I have even been known to help children. I have been at places like Wal-Mart and have seen parents hit their children and I have stepped right up and said hey how would you like me to hit you like that? They don't like it but tuff I will not stand by and watch anyone hurt a child so don't even start trying to say that about me. Oh gee why am I surprised I already said that DHS will do anything to do what they want and prove that what they are doing is right by whatever means possible even lying. Thank you again for making my point for me that you will cover for DHS no matter what. At least I am open minded enough to admit that there are some good workers out there I know them personally. My point is the one I am dealing with is not. I notice in all your posts you have not once mentioned her criminal record I wonder why that is Hmmmmmmmmmm
I also know you said that this thread was worthless and you wanted to squash it by telling people it would go nowhere. Seems to me you were wrong about that too and if it is so worthless why do you keep coming back. Plus for your information I don't think that the children are worthless they are worth fighting for they are too little to fight for themselves it is up to us adults to do that or it should be don't you think?
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Karried that is a timely and thought-provoking article. And we should stop and think these issues through. Not all people are as ECO sees them; if so, I sure wouldn't do what I do. Yes there are bad apples everywhere. And I guess since most who are put to death or spend years in prison or pay child support for years but who are later found innocent, well thats just the cost of doing business. We're not going to prove that everything DHS does is wrong. But when and where a wrong is done, it needs to be brought to light with an avenue of investigation and remedy. Isn't that the premise of DHS actions. What is our recourse when things are wrong? It may be all well and good - unless it happens to you.
I think charges should be brought against the mother if she was indeed drunk and accidentally suffocated her child. But if a mother was not doing anything wrong and accidentally rolled over on her child, I would call that a tragic accident.
If we made everything a crime that could potentially end in a death, we could hardly leave our houses in the morning. We certainly could never get in a car.
What are the bonding benefits with a child vs the probability that co-sleeping will end in death? I would think public education about safe sleeping habits would be the called-for action. To discourage it and educate about it is right - to make a somewhat natural action a crime is to intrude too far into our personal lives. The harm done when a child is seperated from its mother for YEARS does not = falling asleep alongside ones infant WHEN NO HARM WAS DONE TO THE CHILD.
Dana, it seems that bench trial does not = seeking termination. You would be getting a jury trial if that was the case. Wasn't it described by Toadrax that is when the actual process begins and the judge will determine you are to have a service plan to regain custody? I understand all of your anguish and know that it is warranted, and commend you for bringing this information forward (and hope that someone more knowledgeble than I will provide you the help you need) but its seems now is the time to put much of your focus toward complying with the service plan and doing what you can to regain your grandchild. Document everything. She (he?) will not be the same child you would have had if she had never been removed but she needs all of your efforts in her behalf. I think it would be beneficial if you posted events as they transpire. It would be educational.
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
GGRRRRR!!!! I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !! See what I mean when I say that many people in this situation hear what they want to hear or expect to hear instead of what they are told - usually repeatedly????
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
We at this point are doing everything we are told the only thing they want her to do is go to drug counseling following the doctored drug test. I told my daughter this is for our benifit in the long run because they will take test every week which will show she is still clean. Yes now it is a bench trial thanks to David Prater I called him when I found out that they were trying to terminate 30 days after pick up because everybody told me that was unheard of and that I needed to make him aware of what was going on so I did. That is when they went to my boss and told him I was talking to too many people and to see if he could shut me up. Needless to say all that did was get me unemployed and so now I have the freedom to talk to as many people as I want to. As far as help on here that won't happen I only came here to get the word out. Nobody can help us we are all alone and DHS has all the power they will adopt him out and I know this. My daughter stills thinks she will get him back and I don't have the heart to tell her it will never happen. To tell her would make her lose all hope and I can not deal with that now. She already now has high blood pressure and it is just my opinion that it is because of all of this. I think the stress is getting to her she can't understand why she sees people that really shouldn't be raising their kids are and she who has done nothing wrong has hers taken. It is all confusing to her and frustrating. She is also taking steps to become permanently sterilized so that she can never have children again. She was on birth control and using condems when she conceived my grandson and still got pregnant. She loves him dearly but doesn't want to take the chance of losing another child so she is making sure she never has another one. As far as documentation goes I have been keeping a journal since the day he was born and everything is in it all the reports visits from the police in fact I have a huge file with the arrest warrant for the case worker, her criminal history etc. etc. I just checked the web site and the warrant is still active as of this morning. If she would just send them the money for the hot checks she could probably make it all go away and make me look like a lier but at this point she has chosen not to do so.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Exactly that is what I have been saying all along and it is usually when I point it out how wrong they are that they give up. I am glad you just described yourself it saved me the trouble.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
East Coast Okie,
My replies have >
Once DHS has to prove abuse or neglect beyond a reasonable doubt you can kiss goodbye any protections in place for a huge number of children. Without a civil finding of abuse or neglect to hold over the parents' head, forget about court ordered counseling, parenting classes, etc.
>So let's take the kids, throw out the Constitution with all of it's old fashion notions of "due process" so that untrained, unprofessional, under qualified people in a system of armature wannabes can decide who's guilty of crimes based on their subjective emotional opinions without trial or proper process. Then we can force them to do anything like go to certain counselors and classes ran by service providers to the system who have a financial conflict of interest in the situation because of their contracts with the state.
A lot of kids who think their parents will go to jail won't testify. They WILL testify if they know that the parents are simply facing civil penalties and will be required to go to counseling or therapy or something like that.
>Yes the children are told everything will be better if the parents "get help", but their not told they could end up in foster care forever or adopted. They are also "bribed" in the shelters to cooperate with trips to rock climbing and go cart tracks. And to top it off we have lawyers who fail to represent the children as required so even if the child objects their voice is not heard.
W. Moore, how much time and energy have you spend dealing with families whose children are brought within the DHS system? Do you think I am opinionated because you don't like to think that people are the way I've described, or because you have walked down the same corridors and seen something different? I don't know anything about you and for all I know, you work with these folks all the time and have come to a different conclusion. So which is it? Are you going on opinion, perhaps based on nothing more than your world view? Or are you basing your position on experience with this population? It makes a difference if you are looking for solutions to a difficult problem.
>#1 I don't judge people, not my job or yours. I do judge the actions of those in the system and the system itself as to compliance with the law. Let's remember were talking about court here so the law has to be followed, otherwise there is no legal jurisdiction and any rulings or orders are null and void. I know that's a pain for those who already know who's guilty, (without proof) and how to fix them yet have no real understanding of the law or moral directive to follow and uphold it. And whether you or anyone else likes it even the dysfunctional unwashed masses are entitled to “equal protection” under the law.
As for me, I guess I'm one of those who you describe as “nuts”, “dysfunctional”, “mentally ill”, “social misfit” , just one of the “dregs of society”. Kind of amazing how someone like me, (also male) can beat DHS and the ex to get custody of two infants in divorce court, (1995) or overcome the Juvenile Court sham and get a dismissal on an “immediate termination petition”. I'm involved with advocates here like David Starkey who runs the Rogers Co. Grand jury movement, and Mr. Jim Hall, litigant in the only Juvenile Court case known to have a public order issued by the court admitting the allegations against him were fabricated, (after his children were illegally held for over two years). I also run the state chapter of the American Family Rights Association, and work with other national groups. If you'll take the time to examine the AFRA, Connecticut DCF watch, fight cps.com, etc websites you'll see that corruption has been exposed in many states, Ky. the latest, (along with the little Texas kidnapping event). And at least two jurisdictions have had children's legal representation removed from the local court, (because of screw ups that resulted in due process violations) to be controlled by the state or feds. The current class action suit here will probably result in federal takeover or court monitoring as has happened in other states with terrible records in their DHS systems. And now since the suit and legislative hearings have gotten more public attention we are gaining the numbers for more Grand juries and since the feds are getting involved we are going to start a campaign to bring public force to bear and demand criminal charges for Federal Civil Rights violations in the Juvenile Courts against all involved either directly, by conspiracy, or failure to prevent, (all officers of the court have a duty to prevent or report these crimes).
In the trenches, knowing what you are dealing with is essential. I learned a long time ago to call it straight and not jerk families around being "nice" when, in fact, you are dealing with a bad situation and no one is addressing it. You do no favors to a child to reassure her mother, who is drunk every night, that you know she "means well" and you know she "loves her child" and leave it at that. At a certain point, that is a waste of time and time is not something a young child has. You say, "Lady, your drinking has placed your child in danger. You are exposing her to unsavory characters and are too drunk to protect her or care for her properly. Give up the booze or the baby - your choice." I don't believe in jerking around families. Nine times out of ten, there are some pretty straight forward things they can do that will help a situation, even if it won't completely cure it. Make the kids go to school. Get a job. Clean your house. Take your child to the doctor (that is paid for by the state so it is not like it is costing you). Get up and moving before 9:00 in the morning. Dress for the weather. Take a frickin' bath. Wash their clothes, in the sink if you have to. Don't leave your kids with strangers. Don't call the cops everytime you get mad. Don't throw things everytime you get mad. Read to your child and if you can't read, play a recording you can get from the librairy. Tell them a story. Take a walk with them. Shut off the TV and spend time with them. Quit drinking all the time. Go to AA. If you have to tell someone that, they aren't functioning too well. A lot of these families don't do even this much and that is not counting the ones who are actually abusing them.
>All this sounds good, but until a child is actually harmed and harm can be proven a crime has not been committed. And until we amend the Constitution or overthrow it parenting is a “liberty interest” according to the USSC and requires full “due process” to interfere with it.
I stand by my words that the folks who tend to end up with kids in the system by and large, are dysfunctional, either through mental illness, substance abuse or just because they are dysfunctional. Not all of them, but most of them who end up with a conviction.
>Once again these diagnosis require a qualified, credentialed mental health expert, otherwise they are nothing more than allegations and opinion, to use them in the context of civil court to find guilt criminal acts is a violation of the Constitution via the due process clause. There are no convictions in civil court, we see again the attempt to use the civil court as a criminal one.
Jacodenn, the vast number of headlines you have posted are nothing but accusations and charges, negligence (vs. deliberate). Of COURSE there are bad apples in DHS. There are bad apples everywhere. How about putting up the articles about all the babies out there killed by dirthead parents (and their boyfriends) or the one about that poor baby who was eaten by the puppy in Tulsa when her mama slept in? Does that mean that all parents are bad?
>charges being brought means there is evidence, the allegations in a Juvenile Petition are not charges they are allegations without enough evidence for the D.A. To file charges. If the D.A. Cannot file charges how can you accuse someone of a crime?
It is not an easy decision to decide if a child is safe with its family, sometimes.
>Thats' why it should only be made by competent qualified professional people who understand and follow the law and then be confirmed by a jury.
Sounds like they have not even had a trial on the merits in Dana's case which is frustrating to me
>In Ok. you'll find a "trial on the merits" is one of the many things that rarely occur if at all in the system here, generally because there are no merits and that raises the question of "prosecutorial misconduct" and "abuse of process" because of criminal prosecutors being used in Civil Court.
>Now some words I stand by. Any Officer of the Court or public official who fails to uphold the Constitution, (the Supreme Law of the land) or violate it “under color of law” is in violation of their oath and are criminals. Any citizen who violates another citizens Civil Rights is also a criminal. This is not my view or opinion, it's the law.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
ECO---My posts on this thread have only been for the purpose of providing some material to show that there are and there have been some "dysfunctional" employees at OKDHS.
OKDHS is like any other business...some of the employees will set the standard, some will meet the standard, some will be below standard, and some just don't have a clue. Unfortunately for some of us, we have had to deal with those that don't have a clue.
I could go on and on and on as you have, but I typically prefer to keep my posts short.
I'll end by saying, Dana has pointed to some very serious shortcomings within the "system," and it's time the legislature and the public listen up and do something. Thankfully, something is being done.
Dennis
Oklahoma City
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Well, now!! Didn't mean to get you all spitting, W. Moore.
Let's calm down and remind everyone that criminal law, which its attendent "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard is evoked to protect a liberty interest, which IS protected by the constition. DHS doesn't deal with criminal matters, i.e., jail time is left to the prosecutors. Civil penalties attach so the higher standard is not in place. No one is a traitor and the constition is not evoked on purely civil matters so lets not get our boxers in a twist. It is not nearly so dramatic as claiming there is some sort of nefarious attempt by officers of the court to try to overthrow our system of laws, I'll grant you.
But I'll give you this - anytime you are talking about children, people get excited. That is understandable. But tossing out words like traitor on this basis goes into the realm of drama queen. No need to do that. Really.
As to termination of parental rights, that is a separate question and I agree that is a constitutional question. The standard generally used is "clear and convincing" which is not too far off from beyond a reasonable doubt. But there is a great divide between termination of parental rights and stepping in to provide services such as parenting classes or a protective order when the child hasn't been fed in a few days or ends up with bruises because the boyfriend took a belt to a screaming child.
Now, in your post you asserted that the kids who testify aren't told they could go into foster care. Er... who told you that? I ALWAYS tell my kids that. How could you not share that with a child old enough to understand? When you are talking about something bad enough to have them removed from the home, you have to tell them that. I suspect it makes some feel better to think that it is all part of a big plot, and perhaps some don't tell them, but as has been pointed out, there are always bad apples. As a GAL, you can't just "trick" kids into testifying. That is just one of those things tossed around by people who have no way of knowing what actually is said to the kids. And it makes for a better story. And the kids will swear they didn't know so as to avoid getting into trouble. If I had a dime for how many kids ask me to not let their parents know how they really feel ...
W. Moore, it may not be your job to "judge" people but the judges, and to a certain limited extent the SWs and the GALs have to get into that. If someone is abusing their child or not taking care of them, you don't have the luxury of looking the other way. Trust me, it would be a lot easier to just pretend you didn't know something. I can't tell you how many times I have wondered if it would just be easier to throw up my hands and say, "To heck with it - these people have already ruined this kid - why beat our heads against the wall? Who cares, anyway?" All I can say is that I have NEVER gone against my gut and not lived to regret it. Never. Those are the cases that haunt me.
<<>charges being brought means there is evidence, the allegations in a Juvenile Petition are not charges they are allegations without enough evidence for the D.A. To file charges. If the D.A. Cannot file charges how can you accuse someone of a crime? >>
W. Moore, that is just ignorant. Sorry. I am not calling You ignorant. That statement is just out there, though. DHS and the DA are apples and oranges. The DHS is not in the crime business. That is the DAs job. Much more often than not the DHS is dealing with non criminal matters. There is no conflict athough OCCASIONALLY there is overlap. That really is the exception rather than the rule. And let me tell you, charges are brought all the time without much, if any evidence. I don't agree with it, it isn't right, but there you have it. Saying that charges being brought means there is evidence is just half a step from saying that if you are charged you are guilty. That is what trials are for, wouldn't you say?
I completely disagree with you that you have to have a psychological to make the call that a family is dysfunctional or has a substance abuse problem. To have a diagnosis of mental illness, you bet. But if you would read what I said, even casually, you'd see that I didn't say they were all mentally ill, nor did I attempt to diagnose the individuals. What I said is that people in the system tend to be in these categories and my experiences tells me that those conditions lead to this type of court involvement. I am not sure how anyone could even argue against that with a straight face. And I have also posted that plenty of people, especially the excessive discipline cases, DON'T fall in this category. You are cherry picking to try to prove a point. Why do that? If you have the right of it, you don't need to pick and choose what I say to come out on top.
You wrote:
>In Ok. you'll find a "trial on the merits" is one of the many things that rarely occur if at all in the system here, generally because there are no merits and that raises the question of "prosecutorial misconduct" and "abuse of process" because of criminal prosecutors being used in Civil Court.>
I'm no mental health expert but that sure sounds paranoid to this layperson...I'll leave it at that.
VIP Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
In all of this, I think we are all forgetting that the whole point of DHS is to protect children and prevent abuse and neglect.
Is the system perfect? No way. But, it's all we have right now and we have to find a way to work it to our advantage.
Dana, become a child advocate, a foster parent, take some community college course on child development... anything to bolster your position in regards to getting your grandson back.
I fear you are too focused on proving wrongdoing and criminal history of your caseworker to the detriment of your case.
Unless you have the means ( money ) to sue or take legal recourse, you're wasting valuable energy going after this woman instead of doing what you and your daughter have to do to get him back.
In your shoes, I'm not saying I wouldn't do the same, I'd go insane if my kids weren't with me, but looking in from the outside and remaining neutral and not emotionally invested, this is what I see.
You need to focus on changing caseworkers if at all possible, getting them on your side and doing whatever they say to do to get him back before you lose him for good.
There have been times, I've felt compelled to go after a teacher or a bully in a very 'postal' manner.... after I've calmed down, I realize that it would have only made it much worse on my child.. .. I try to approach it very professionally and work on getting support for our situation rather than alienate, ie attract more flies with honey than vinegar and all that.
We all want to protect our children, but maybe if you focuse solely on the grandbaby and realize that maybe, just maybe your daughter has done some things that may have put your grandson in jeopardy, it might make you rethink how you are approaching this whole situation... is that even a remote possibility?
I feel for you, this is a horrible predicament, but you can turn it around. Good luck again
" You've Been Thunder Struck ! "
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
My mistake was moving her to the home for her protection after the daddy of her baby came over and tried to stab her while I was at work. It put her under the DHS radar, and once he was born all hell broke loose. The only reason I made mention of her record is because it makes no since that a woman with a record can go after a family that doesn't and get away with it. When she didn't get the baby the first time she made it a personal vendetta. She was mad because I stopped her but what was I supposed to do just let her take him?
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
I know I am joining this discussion a bit late, however after reading all the posts, this is the one sentence that stuck in my mind...
Personally I think this says it all... no the system is not perfect, in fact it is the furthest thing from perfect and the problem is those who use it to their advantage, be it a parent or an employee, and yes there are incentives to both the office itself, as well as it's employees. All it takes is a little surfing the web to find all the information one could want regarding that fact.
Also, if the DHS isn't corrupt, then why is it in order to find these documents you have to sift through forums, blogs, and websites unrelated to the DHS because they have since removed them from their website?
I noticed there was quite the heated discussion over this "bonus" issue, which is as real as you and I. In fact it is another example of a document removed from the DHS website because they don't want everyone to know. Fortunately there are numerous people who have been smart enough to post them where they cannot be removed and hidden from the public. So for anyone who wants to take the minute it does to read this, here's the OKDHS newsletter which announced the bonus.
Also, when those of you who are interested in reading the above article are through, I would recommend reading this document as well.
Lastly, maybe someone would care to explain to me why it is, according to the OK State Totals for 2007 indicate there are such-and-such amounts of "Referrals Accepted for Investigation" and when you look at the "Total Investigations", the amounts differ greatly in that there are more investigations than referrals for investigations.
So IMHO (in my honest opinion), OK is no different than any other state in that they too receive government kick backs, they doctor statistics, they reward unethical tactics, and they get away with it because to few are willing to dig their heels in and fight.
So I personally don't think DHS is corrupt, I know they are because there are plenty of "facts" out there to prove it. People can express their opinions all they want to and many will write them off as allegations when truth be told, the facts are everywhere if you simply take the time to look for them.
But again, this is just my opinion for what it is worth.
~Dee~
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
East Coast Okie,
This post addresses one issue alone. You stated, " the constition is not evoked on purely civil matters". Where did you learn that? And are you saying that's how Civil Court DHS cases are handled where you're at? Below is a list of case law concerning the Constitution in these type cases, these are Civil Court cases. I suggest everyone read them and deciede if we do have Constitutional Rights in Civil Court or not.
A due-process violation occurs when a state-required breakup of a natural family is founded solely on a “best interests” analysis that is not supported by the requisite proof of parental unfitness. Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U.S. 246, 255, (1978)
The mere possibility of danger does not constitute an emergency or exigent circumstance that would justify a forced warrantless entry and a warrantless seizure of a child. Hurlman v. Rice, (2nd Cir. 1991)
Walsh v. Erie County Dept. of Job and Family Services, 3:01-cv-7588.
in White v. Pierce county (797 F. 2d 812 (9th Cir. 1986),
North Hudson DYFS v. Koehler Family, filed December 18, 2000
, a juvenile judges decision on whether or not to issue a warrant is a legal one, it is not based on “best interest of the child” or personal feeling. The United States Supreme Court has held that courts may not use a different standard other than probable cause for the issuance of such orders. Griffin v. Wisconsin, 483 U.S. 868 (1987). If a court issues a warrant based on an uncorroborated anonymous tip, the warrant will not survive a judicial challenge in the higher courts. Anonymous tips are never probable cause. “[I]n context of a seizure of a child by the State during an abuse investigation . . . a court order is the equivalent of a warrant.” Tenenbaum v. Williams, 193 F.3d 581, 602 (2nd Cir. 1999). F.K. v. Iowa district Court for Polk County, Id.”
The decision in the case of Doe et al, v. Heck et al (No. 01-3648, 2003 US App. Lexis 7144) will affect the manner in which law enforcement and child protective services investigations of alleged child abuse or neglect are conducted.
The decision of the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals found that this practice, i.e. the “no prior consent” interview of a child, will ordinarily constitute a “clear violation” of the constitutional rights of parents under the 4th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. According to the Court, the investigative interview of a child constitutes a “search and seizure” and, when conducted on private property without “consent, a warrant, probable cause, or exigent circumstances,” such an interview is an unreasonable search and seizure in violation of the rights of the parent, child, and, possibly the owner of the private property
See State v. Hatter, 342N.W.2d 851, 855 (Iowa 1983) (holding the exigent circumstances exception to the Warrant Clause only applies when ‘an immediate major crisis in the performance of duty afforded neither time nor opportunity to apply to a magistrate.’). Second, as noted by the Second Circuit, ‘[I]n context of a seizure of a child by the State during an abuse investigation . . . a court order is the equivalent of a warrant.’ Tenenbaum v. Williams, 193 F.3d 581, 602 (2nd Cir. 1999). F.K. v. Iowa district Court for Polk County, Id.”
. Good v. Dauphin County Social Servs., 891 F.2d 1087 (3rd Cir. 1989) held that a social worker and police officer were not entitled to qualified immunity for insisting on entering her house against the mother’s will to examine her child for bruises.
The 9th Circuit further opined in Wallis v. Spencer, 202 F.3d 1126 (9th Cir. 2000), that ‘[b]ecause the swing of every pendulum brings with it potential adverse consequences, it is important to emphasize that in the area of child abuse, as with the investigation and prosecution of all crimes, the state is constrained by the substantive and procedural guarantees of the Constitution. The fact that the suspected crime may be heinous – whether it involves children or adults – does not provide cause for the state to ignore the rights of the accused or any other parties. Otherwise, serious injustices may result. In cases of alleged child abuse, governmental failure to abide by constitutional constraints may have deleterious long-term consequences for the child and, indeed, for the entire family. Ill-considered and improper governmental action may create significant injury where no problem of any kind previously existed. .’ Id. at 1130-1131.”
“Decency, security and liberty alike demand that government officials shall be subject to the rules of conduct that are commands to the citizen. In a government of laws, existence of government will be imperiled if it fails to observe the law scrupulously. Our government is the potent, omnipresent teacher. For good or ill, it teaches the whole people by example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for the law. It invites every man to become a law unto himself. It invites anarchy. U.S. v. Olmstead, 277 U.S. 438 (1928), Justice Brandeis.
children have standing to sue for their removal after they reach the age of majority. Parents also have legal standing to sue if CPS violated their 4th and 14th Amendment rights. Children have a Constitutional right to live with their parents without government interference. Brokaw v. Mercer County, 7th Cir. (2000) A child has a constitutionally protected interest in the companionship and society of his or her parents. Ward v. San Jose, 9th Cir. (1992) State employees who withhold a child from her family infringe on the family’s liberty of familial association. K.H. through Murphy v. Morgan, 7th Cir. (1990)
The forced separation of parent from child, even for a short time, represents a serious infringement upon the rights of both. J.B. v. Washington county, 10th Cir. (1997) Parent’s interest is of “the highest order.” And the court recognizes “the vital importance of curbing overzealous suspicion and intervention on the part of health care professionals and government officials.” Thomason v. Scan Volunteer Services, Inc., 8th Cir. (1996)
Judges must maintain a high standard of judicial performance with particular
emphasis upon conducting litigation with scrupulous fairness and impartiality.
28 USCA § 2411; Pfizer v. Lord, 456 F.2d 532; cert denied 92 S Ct 2411; US Ct
App MN, (1972).
State Judges, as well as federal, have the responsibility to respect and
protect persons from violations of federal constitutional rights. Gross v. State
of Illinois, 312 F 2d 257; (1963).
The Constitution also protects "the individual interest in avoiding
disclosure of personal matters." Federal Courts (and State Courts), under
Griswold can protect, under the "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" phrase
of the Declaration of Independence, the right of a man to enjoy the mutual care,
company, love and affection of his children, and this cannot be taken away from
him without due process of law. There is a family right to privacy which the
state cannot invade or it becomes actionable for civil rights damages. Griswold
v. Connecticut, 381 US 479, (1965).
The rights of parents to the care, custody and nurture of their children is
of such character that it cannot be denied without violating those fundamental
principles of liberty and justice which lie at the base of all our civil and
political institutions, and such right is a fundamental right protected by this
amendment (First) and Amendments 5, 9, and 14. Doe v. Irwin, 441 F Supp 1247;
U.S. D.C. of Michigan, (1985).
Law and court procedures that are "fair on their faces" but administered
"with an evil eye or a heavy hand" was discriminatory and violates the equal
protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 US 356,
(1886).
Even when blood relationships are strained, parents retain vital interest in
preventing irretrievable destruction of their family life; if anything, persons
faced with forced dissolution of their parental rights have more critical need
for procedural protections than do those resisting state intervention into
ongoing family affairs. Santosky v. Kramer, 102 S Ct 1388; 455 US 745, (1982).
Parents have a fundamental constitutionally protected interest in continuity
of legal bond with their children. Matter of Delaney, 617 P 2d 886, Oklahoma
(1980). .
The liberty interest of the family encompasses an interest in retaining
custody of one's children and, thus, a state may not interfere with a parent's
custodial rights absent due process protections. Langton v. Maloney, 527 F Supp
538, D.C. Conn. (1981).
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Er... "purely" civil cases are "just" civil cases. That is why they are "purely civil." Lots of cases have constitutional elements to them, in which case, they would not be a purely civil case.
You've listed cases with search and seizure and due process holdings, looks like. Cases where this is an issue wouldn't be a purely civil case. Of COURSE problems with those matters would be constitutional issues.
Due process issues are constitutional issues but, again, they don't really go towards what we've been talking about. Anyone who screws with due process can run afoul of the constitution, and it doesn't really matter if you are talking about a case arising from a DHS issue or one that involves a drug deal.
Due process in most cases in the initial, temporary separation of a parent from a child generally means the court has to be given enough information to make a ruling. As a very early step, so long as sufficient evidence is provided (and that is a fact question - it will vary depending on the situation), you aren't going to run afoul of due process. Of COURSE if you skipped that step you'd have a due process problem. However, so long as the parent is entitled to a speedy trial on the merits after the initial, provisional ruling, and you follow the law, you should be okay. Normally, the length of time that can elapse from the time a child is removed until the parents are entitled to their trial on the merits is set by statute. Assuming the statute is followed, attacking the statute as being unconstitutional is your remedy. Are you suggesting that statutes governing the time lines in these types of cases has been over ruled? That they are being ignored? That they are unconstitutional?
Your case about separating families discussed "irretrievable destruction of their family life." Again, that case discusses "procedural" protections. Of COURSE you are entitled to procedural protections. Anytime you are dealing with a constitional right you are entitled to that.
It is unclear to me what you are trying to establish. Are you trying to suggest that I am suggesting parental rights aren't constitional rights? Have you even READ my posts? Darling, you are cherry picking, again.
Here is something straight from one of the cases you just cited (the Thompson case):
"Our court has recognized the liberty interest which parents have in the care, custody, and management of their children. Myers v. Morris, 810 F.2d 1437, 1462 (8th Cir.) (Myers) (citing Lehr v. Robertson, 463 U.S. 248, 258 (1983)), cert. denied, 484 U.S. 828 (1987); see Lux by Lux v. Hansen, 886 F.2d 1064, 1066-67 (8th Cir.1989) (Lux); Fitzgerald v. Williamson, 787 F.2d 403, 407(8th Cir. 1983). However, we have at the same time indicated that this right is not absolute. Myers, 810 F.2d at 1462; see Martinez v. Mafchir, 35 F.3d 1486, 1490 (10th Cir. 1994) (Martinez) ("The right to familial integrity, however, has never been deemed absolute or unqualified."); accord Hodge v. Jones, 31 F.3d 157, 163 (4th Cir.) (Hodge), cert. denied, 115 S. Ct. 581 (1994); Doe v. Louisiana, 2 F.3d 1412, 1417 (5th Cir. 1993)(Doe), cert. denied, 114 S. Ct. 1189 (1994); Frazier v. Bailey, 957 F.2d 920, 929 (1st Cir. 1993) (Frazier). As we stated in Myers, "the liberty interest in familial relations is limited by the compelling governmental interest in the protection of minor children, particularly in circumstances where the protection is considered necessary as against the parents themselves." 810 F.2d at 1462. Moreover, as the First Circuit has correctly noted, "[t]he right to family integrity clearly does not include a constitutional right to be free from child abuse investigations." Watterson v. Page, 987 F.2d 1, 8 (1st Cir. 1993) (Watterson).
Did you read that part? Did you see how many authorities were cited and how recent they are? There is even a recent 10th circuit case that reminds us that the liberty interest of parents have in the care, custody, and management of their children is not absolute.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
Please provide any case law or reference to a "purely civil" case where Constitutional protections do not apply. The only time anyone looses their Constitutional/Civil Rights is after a felony conviction. Are you saying any part of a Juvenile case is "purely civil" and Constitutional Rights do not apply?
Your words;
Let's remind everyone that criminal law, which its attendent "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard is evoked to protect a liberty interest, which IS protected by the constition. DHS doesn't deal with criminal matters, i.e., jail time is left to the prosecutors. Civil penalties attach so the higher standard is not in place. and the constition is not evoked on purely civil matters
>You are incorrect, "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the “standard of proof” to meet for conviction, (finding of guilt) by a jury in criminal court. Do you mean to imply or infer that criminal law has to be applied or criminal charges filed to in effect have Constitutional Rights?
The "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard has nothing to do with the “liberty interest” status confirmed on parental rights by Court precedents or any other Constitutional/Civil Right.
“The liberty interest of the family encompasses an interest in retaining custody of one's children and, thus, a state may not interfere with a parent's
custodial rights absent due process protections”. Langton v. Maloney, 527 F Supp
538, D.C. Conn. (1981). “Parents have a fundamental constitutionally protected interest in continuity of legal bond with their children”. Matter of Delaney, 617 P 2d 886, Oklahoma
(1980).
“The rights of parents to the care, custody and nurture of their children is
of such character that it cannot be denied without violating those fundamental
principles of liberty and justice which lie at the base of all our civil and
political institutions, and such right is a fundamental right protected by this
amendment (First) and Amendments 5, 9, and 14.” Doe v. Irwin, 441 F Supp 1247;
U.S. D.C. of Michigan, (1985).
Your Words;
Er... "purely" civil cases are "just" civil cases. That is why they are "purely civil." Lots of cases have constitutional elements to them, in which case, they would not be a purely civil case.
Your words;
Once DHS has to prove abuse or neglect beyond a reasonable doubt you can kiss goodbye any protections in place for a huge number of children. Without a civil finding of abuse or neglect to hold over the parents' head, forget about court ordered counseling, parenting classes, etc.
>So if a Civil case is not used to "find", (not prove) abuse and neglect which are crimes and require due process parents could not be separated from their children for months without a Termination of parental Rights Trial, which also requires full due process?
Your words;
You've listed cases with search and seizure and due process holdings, looks like. Cases where this is an issue wouldn't be a purely civil case. Of COURSE problems with those matters would be constitutional issues.
>Yes and since according to the Court, "the investigative interview” of a child constitutes a “search and seizure” then the 4th. Amendment applies, (along with due process) from the very beginning of the investigation. (see prior post for case cite)
Your words;
Due process issues are constitutional issues but, again, they don't really go towards what we've been talking about. Anyone who screws with due process can run afoul of the constitution, and it doesn't really matter if you are talking about a case arising from a DHS issue or one that involves a drug deal.
>see above reply.
Your words;
Are you trying to suggest that I am suggesting parental rights aren't constitional rights?
>No I'm questioning the understanding you have of Constitutional Rights and their application. I would suggest study at findlaw, Corrnell, or the many other free legal education and research sites online. For more insite anyone in Ok. Should google search “Michael Chionopoulos”, he is a lawyer and former judge from Ok. Co. He does blogs and writes editorials for the Edmond Sun and others I believe. He will gladly answer questions regarding Constitutional Rights and law. Ask him how well the Family Courts in OKC. Uphold Constitutional Rights and other conditions in the system.
Simple application:
I'm sure some here are bored with this thread. Here is a simple way for anyone who reads it to check things out for themselves. Go to one of the many local or national anti DHS type groups and look for these patterns of indicators in Ok. Cases and other states. Google “kidjacked” or “legally kidnapped” among other sites for examples of cases. In Ok. Google “Jim Hall” or “Rogers Co. Grand jury”. Study for yourselves and see how many cases are handled. Also the 2007 American Bar Association report on the OKC Juvenile Court gives good indication of how the emergency custody hearings are conducted, the hearing that must be held within 2 or 3 days of when a child is removed without prior order based on “exigent circumstances” as addressed in case law. This is the first hearing after a child has been taken and due process has been delayed a little just as allowed by law for the sake of the safety of the child,(a warrant less emergency removal was done) At this point the child is away from the alleged danger so now due process must be applied to justify the use of “exigent circumstances” for the warrant less removal, and to justify not returning the child to the parents. But the ABA report and cases in other states clearly indicate lack of due process in these cases is a big problem.
Indicators:
#1 No warrant or court order were issued prior to child removal.
#2 There is no direct evidence in the court filings that indicate any injury or cause for “exigent "circumstances".
#3 Parents and or children not having legal representation at the first hearing after the child has been removed.
#4 There is no "trial on the merits" or "findings of fact" and "conclusions of law” in the court file.
#5 There are no hearings or evidence presented on the record to extend “emergency custody orders” as required by law.
#6 The holding of the children pending completion of DHS plans is justified by using an adjudication hearing, (much of the time based on “stipulation agreements”) And you will hear many say they were told it was “civil” court or “different” and Constitutional issues or civil rights aren't involved.
#7 Much of the time there will be no court reporter, no transcripts of hearings.
#8 Most will say they were told to “stipulate” to the petition by their lawyers, although the meaning and ramifications were not explained. But they're told that's the fastest way to get a “plan” started to get your children back.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
The following information comes from the June 2007 Child and Family Services Review "State wide Assessment" available online at Oklahoma Department of Human Services (OKDHS.org) - Stronger Families Grow Brighter Futures, and the petition filed in the class action lawsuit against DHS filed by childrensrights.org. and cited news sources.
Regarding OkDHS pay and funding
"In an effort to reduce turnover within the Child Welfare program, monetary incentives have been implemented. In October 2004 and 2005 all OKDHS employees were given $1,000 stipends from federal bonus awards the agency received for high performance in several of its programs. Pay increases were provided to Child Welfare specialists and supervisors in November 2005 and December 2006. A performance based pay incentive was implemented per State legislation in 2006. Eligibility for the performance based pay is dependent the county’s annual State CFSR results, time employed in the county office, annual employee evaluation, and completion of training hours."
~ 2007 Child and Family Service Review.
This shoots down all the "low pay" poor DHS worker, (bonuses two years in a row and raises two years in a row) as well as the "legislature doesn't give DHS enough money" argument now doesn't it? This is their data so if they dispute it they're calling themselves liars. And if it is true it proves them to be liars and frauds every time they say higher pay and more of funding are the answers to fixing the problems, they got those things and children are still being abused and dying at a horrible rate.
Money is not the answer. If you received raises and bonuses but then failed at your job,(DHS) resulting in a loss, (abused and dead children) then told your employer, (the public) it wasn't your fault and that you're not responsible, (no accountability). But then said give me a raise, (more funding,) and then I'll do better, how would that go over?
Regarding the numbers
In February 2005 the daily average of children in foster care was 6,522. In February 2007 the daily average was 7,757 children in foster care.
~ 2007 Child and Family Service Review.
July 1, 2008 newsok.com Oklahoma City
“Currently there are 7,600 children in foster care in about 3,500 homes” ~ George Johnson, DHS Spokesperson
July 1, 2008 KOCO Oklahoma City
"(We have) 11,500 children, 1,000 people doing the work of the entire child welfare system in the state. You do the math," ~ George Johnson, DHS Spokesperson
"This case is brought by the Named Plaintiffs, nine children in foster care,
on behalf of themselves and the more than 10,000 children of Oklahoma who have been removed from their homes by the State. These foster children, who are or will be in the legal custody of the Oklahoma Department of Human Services" (statement from the petition filed in the class action lawsuit February 13th. 2008).
The large discrepancy in the numbers (around 4000 ) is an issue that has to be answered. How many children are there? If there are 7600 why do other sources give such higher numbers? And if the higher counts are correct like the 10,000+ cited in the lawsuit then what explains the drastic increase from 7,757 in February 2007 to 10,000+ in February 2008? If those numbers are correct then that raises other questions doesn't it? I for one think not only do we need a full financial audit of DHS, (not a performance audit). We also need some type of verifiable count of the number of children in the system.
Participating Member
Re: DHS steals,abuses & kills children
This is recent,(last year) it will be interesting to see what results. It could also be a guide to finding possible corruption here.
Santa Clara County
$400M Fraud & Damages Suit
CITIZENS COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS®
SOUTH BAY CHAPTER
For Immediate Release:
Contact: Karl Hoffower (408)-891-5830
Doug Linde (310)-203-9555
SANTA CLARA COUNTY NAMED IN $400 MILLION
FALSE CLAIMS DAMAGES SUIT OVER DFCS FRAUD
SUIT ALLEGES CPS CHARGED STATE AND FEDERAL PROGRAMS
FOR NON EXISTENT CHILDREN
After a Federal False Claims Act suit was unsealed last week, the County of
Santa Clara has been served with a summons to appear on charges of defrauding
State and Federal Social Security funds for Foster Care.
The suit alleges that the Department of Family and Children's Services regularly
bills the State and Federal Governments for managing case files of children that
do not exist. The attorney for the case estimated the damages and fraud at
about $400 million dollars in State and Federal funds.
The Whistleblower in this case reportedly has copies of documents that show DFCS
Management and Supervisors ordered Social Workers to bill for 5 children in one
case rather than for the two children that the mother actually gave birth to.
Dr. Karl Hoffower, the President of the South Bay Chapter of the Citizens
Commission on Human Rights said, "We have been receiving complaints against DFCS
for several years. Parents have brought evidence of improper conduct on the
part of Social Workers that never made sense until now. By this suit it appears
that DFCS Social Workers have a monetary motivation behind their actions."
Dr. Hoffower went on to say, "This lawsuit could also be the explanation for why
40% of the case files in the County's 2003 'Children of Color Study*', that
investigated DFCS on charges of racism, were missing. While it has always
seemed odd that 40% of the DFCS files were never found for that study, this
lawsuit might have the best explanation for that blunder.they just never existed
to begin with.
The suit further charges that several psychologists have assisted in defrauding
the State and Federal programs by billing for therapy sessions that never took
place. The Whistleblower alleges that DFCS contracts with psychologists to
perform therapy sessions to children in the Foster Care System. Those sessions
were reimbursed via a prepaid contract with the County, yet the Whistleblower's
claims no refund was made when the sessions did not take place. In fact the
suit claims to have evidence that DFCS and the psychologists agreed that the
money didn't have to be paid back.
The former Ombudsman and current Legal Redress Officer for the Silicon Valley
NAACP, Ms. Nedra Jones said, "I knew there must be some type of fraud going on
with DFCS. This suit validates the complaints we tried to bring to the
attention of the County back in 2004. The deceitful actions and callous
disregard for the truth was a daily fight we experienced while trying to work
with Social Workers and DFCS Management. No wonder we had a hard time trying to
help right the wrongs of DFCS, they didn't want us looking too far into their
cases for fear of being found out."
If you think you have had your rights violated by Social Workers or DFCS, call
the CCHR hotline at 1-800-330-7290.
The children of Color Study's full title, "An Evaluation of Factors Related to
the Disproportionate Representation of Children of Color in Santa Clara County's
Child Welfare System" http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/SocialWork/cwrt/
Dr. Karl Hoffower, D.C.
President, South Bay Chapter
Citizens Commission on Human Rights
Cleaning up the field of mental health since 1969.
School shootings Antidepressants Depression & Psychiatrists - Citizens Commission on Human Rights
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