Skydance Bridge

[jmarkross]

Where is W.P. "Bill" Atkinson when you need him...? Oh--now I remember...

[SkyWestOKC]

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20.../some-context/

[urbanity]

http://www.okgazette.com/article/10-...edesigned.aspx

[Doug Loudenback]

So even the Gazette beat the Oklahoman in talking about his. amazing.

[kbsooner]

Ogle had it on his "my 2 cents" segment tonight on channel 9's late newscast. I don't have the link, but I suggest everyone email in comments. He reads selected ones on air.

[krisb]

I may be a democrat, but I say privatize it. I don't care if it has to be the Devon Skydance Bridge.

[ljbab728]

As I mentioned in Steve's blog, is it too late to solicit corporate sponsorship for the bridge and could we try to mount some kind of "buy a brick" campaign for the public if other options are not feasible?

[HOT ROD]

I definitely want this bridge built, it would be one of the ONLY true icons of OKC - much more than just a pedestrian crossing. I agree with what has been suggested, do what it takes to build this bridge (and we also should build Ford Center to spec/promise as well. ...) - be it corporate, deferring the substation move, scaling back the definitely un-necessary boulevard (which also shouldn't cost that much - it's just a street. ...).

Having said that, the bridge design itself is simple and elegant (which is what we all like about it). The bridge doesnt have ornate furnishings nor does it involve a huge span or need to carry an obscene amount of weight. Therefore, I am surprised the bridge is anything more than $5 million, even in 2007 ultra-high construction costs. I mean, it really is a pedestrian span bridge. ....

What is driving the cost of this rather simple concrete and tension wire pedestrian span?

I smell something fishy going on here.

[Doug Loudenback]

I just went to newsok.com to see what if anything Byran Dean may have reported on this. But all of newsok.com is down (including Steve's blog). Anyone read a morning paper yet?

On edit: I've just read through this morning's Oklahoman and couldn't find anything there about this project. Possibly I missed something but I doubt it.

[Thunder]

I agree with Hot Rod, something is very fishy going on. Prices can't be jumping that high so quickly. Maybe it is a cover up story to hide something. I read a quote somewhere recently that we, Oklahomans, are proud to tax ourselves to move forward with amazing projects. One cent sales tax increase is not bad for this project. The city can easily obtain a financial loan. There are ways to make it work rather than pathetically slashing down features to stay within budget. Really, I think the real story is not being told here.

[bombermwc]

I wrote an email to the mayor and each councilmember this morning. Just voicing some concern with the "settling for plan b" approach and what that means...realistically and symbolically. Hopefully they don't jsut send it to their recycle bin and actually think about it.

[flintysooner]

I read Steve's blog entry last evening titled "Context." He had called Hans and visited about the cost increases. There was a Buy American requirement that was mentioned, a huge change in design load requirement, a change in location, and maybe some other stuff.

[OKC@heart]

The changes that he mentioned in the article will have some impacts that is for sure, however mostly with the design fees which by themselves shouldn't take the costs up that much as they are a small percentage of the project costs. However the Buy American mandate could seriously impact the cost, as well as the increased loading requirements.

This is no small footbridge either, it has a long span and the artistic element functions as part of the structure which is one of the reasons the design as originally crafted was so elegant. If I remember correctly the vertical elements went like 185 ft in the air. Supporting it with trusses and then having even the same artistic elements will seem pointless and unecessary from a design standpoint and where the bridge would have likely been viewed as significant by designers in peer cities and worthy of some design awards, it will likely draw scorn.

It is such a shame that we are having to consideer moves that totally undo the genius of the original design intent. This has to be a huge and frustrating blow to Hans...unfortunately he is probably getting used to it. I just hope for a solution that might somehow keep the original intent and design.

[BoulderSooner]

what was the reason that the bridge had to be moved??

[metro]

Yeah I don't understand why it has to be moved, especially since Harvey is the new critical access downtown and linking downtown to C2S south of the river, it will now ruin the whole Harvey axis grid.

[Pete]

Regarding the realignment, if you look at a map, Harvey south of the railroad tracks (and what will be the new I-40) is slightly east of Harvey on the north side. Originally, the bridge was to be angled slightly to connect the two.

I suspect they now want to buy the junk yard east of Union Station so the bridge will be straight across.

[flintysooner]

what was the reason that the bridge had to be moved??

State Historic Preservation Office.

[Pete]

From Steve's blog:

The State Historic Preservation Office blocked plans to have the bridge built where Harvey Avenue terminates at Union Station. This led to relocating the bridge eastward, the city having to buy more land, again another cost increase.

This makes no sense to me... Harvey runs next to Union Station and does not encroach upon it at all.

Perhaps the new bridge will actually extend past Union Station and block it in some way?

[Urban Pioneer]

This whole thing is kind of like saying "I like the Golden Gate suspension bridge without the cables. Lets keep the two towers as art."

I appreciate the budgetary situation. But when you have an architectural competition, you ought to commit and respect the fundamentals of good architecture. Form meets function.

[OKC@heart]

This whole thing is kind of like saying "I like the Golden Gate suspension bridge without the cables. Lets keep the two towers as art."

I appreciate the budgetary situation. But when you have an architectural competition, you ought to commit and respect the fundamentals of good architecture. Form meets function.

Amen, that is precisely what I was getting at, it is a principle in Architecture that we call design integrity. It is basically that the design of the structure is most pure when the things look the way they do because there is a required reason for them to do so. I.e. the cables are the structure not just a decoration that can be reconfigured. If the cables go what is the purpose of the tall sculptural elements? In the original design the were key structural supports that allowed for the counterbalancing of the forces created by the long span that projected across I-40, now they serve no purpose other than decoration and actually will require reconfiguration in and of themselves due to the unbalanced forces that will be removed with the cables and the tension acting on the vertical members keeping them stationary. So it is really a ridiculous assumption that the bridge can simply be done as a trussed structure and still have the decorative elements...no one who knows anything about design will buy it and it will be a laughing stock and the butt of many jokes at Okc's expense. Of course there are few if any of the City council members or even the mayor himself that will understand that, it requires them to be educated as to the value of good and tangible design with purpose. To do otherwise is kitsch and will stand as an icon of ignorance and will be a gimmick. Regrettable and forgettable.

[mheaton76]

Amen, that is precisely what I was getting at, it is a principle in Architecture that we call design integrity. It is basically that the design of the structure is most pure when the things look the way they do because there is a required reason for them to do so. I.e. the cables are the structure not just a decoration that can be reconfigured. If the cables go what is the purpose of the tall sculptural elements? In the original design the were key structural supports that allowed for the counterbalancing of the forces created by the long span that projected across I-40, now they serve no purpose other than decoration and actually will require reconfiguration in and of themselves due to the unbalanced forces that will be removed with the cables and the tension acting on the vertical members keeping them stationary. So it is really a ridiculous assumption that the bridge can simply be done as a trussed structure and still have the decorative elements...no one who knows anything about design will buy it and it will be a laughing stock and the butt of many jokes at Okc's expense. Of course there are few if any of the City council members or even the mayor himself that will understand that, it requires them to be educated as to the value of good and tangible design with purpose. To do otherwise is kitsch and will stand as an icon of ignorance and will be a gimmick. Regrettable and forgettable.

Very well said. My feelings are far less eloquent - this whole thing really sucks. If there is really and truly no way to salvage the original design, I would much a rather see a modest, more minimal structure with clean lines, than something that is half baked, and will be the subject of architectural ridicule.

[Doug Loudenback]

Very well said. My feelings are far less eloquent - this whole thing really sucks. If there is really and truly no way to salvage the original design, I would much a rather see a modest, more minimal structure with clean lines, than something that is half baked, and will be the subject of architectural ridicule.

My thoughts exactly.

[Watson410]

I've just read through this morning's Oklahoman and couldn't find anything there about this project. Possibly I missed something but I doubt it.

That's really not that surprising... Chances are, they know nothing even about this project.

[LuccaBrasi]

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but when the City issued the RFP for this project, and then the winning design was revealed, many knew there was little chance the winning design was going to be built within the budgeted monies. It is also unlikely that the three short listed design teams which interviwed had actual cost estimates that validated their proposed designs were in fact within the budget. That's just the nature of the game. It is impossible to get an accurate cost estimate prepared for an interview. Therefore, it merely becomes a design competition. Firms submit their design, one is chosen, and the committee and public fall in love with it minus the hard line constraints of the budgeted monies.

If budget was not a consideration on every project, many more public and private projects would have enhanced design solutions. Not all, but many. It happens every day. Interviews are conducted with nice renderings and committees fall in love with them, then the reality sets in to achieve the design within the budget. Sometimes that is doable, and sometimes it isn't. Often, the design team that's hired can sell a client on an enhanced design that the client could never thought about when they established the budget. Often clients set budgets by unit or square footage costs, bonds, taxes, assessments, etc. with no hard facts of costs as they might pertain to a particular site or nice design. Sometimes clients can find the additional monies to achieve enhanced designs and sometimes they can't. That's not to say that good design must cost more becasue it doesn't, but often it does. Most of the time though, I think these issues are brought up much sooner than the 85% stage of completion which is dissappointing in this case. It appears additional monies were indeed added to the original budget for various items, but the fact is the design was chosen because of it's sculptural and iconic qualities that OKC needs. It had little validation that it was within the City's budget. Unfortunately for the City, the fact that the cost is double the budget is a hard sell to the general public even the City could find an additional pot from which to pull. So, when some of you question why it doubled, you are assuming the initial design was always within the budget and that likely was not the case. This happens with public projects every day and it also happens in the private sector...........clients fall in love with a proposed design that ends up exceeding their budget.

I think in this case, we all agree the original design should not be compromised if all possible. The test will come in the reality of finding alternatives to reduce the cost. Reducing it roughly 50% and still keeping the integrity of the original design is likely a daunting task and probably not realistic. That's assuming the recent estimate is accurate. That large of a budget reduction is not considered value engineering where you look for cost cutting measures while keeping the design integrity, that's basically starting over. Hopefully this is not the case and at the end of the day, we'll still get an iconic design OKC deserves.

[BigD Misey]

It looked alot like: