First Americans Museum

[Rover]

I am not anti cc like some. I think it is a necessary facility for a city this size and the one planned is not over sized to begin with. One is a state project reflecting the history and population of the entire state and the other benefits mostly our city. Can't move maps funds to it, so I think it is a moot point.

[pickles]

(The tribes maintain the state should fund its own project, because it’s the state that will benefit from the project. According to Timberman, they’ve already kicked in $4.7 million to help cover debt service.)

I wonder why the $4.7 million was not attributed to the "other" funding sources.

That they have already kicked in $4.7 million in debt service payments makes it sound as if it had just been done yesterday, and that more is forthcoming, right around the corner. That is the sum total they have contributed in the past three years.

[Popsy]

Rover and Popsy - are you sitting next to each other in an internet cafe?

What do you think about my idea to divert Convention Center funds to finish it? How much convention space does the City need?

To answer your first question, NO. To answer your second question: The streetcar running up to 13th street would be my primary place to divirt because I do not think there will be any federal money in the future to draw on for expansion. My secondary divirsion would be the State Fair exhibition hall. Third choice would be from the convention center because a full convention center is not needed. Cox could provide the meeting rooms and the exhibition hall built in close proximity would be all that is needed. I proposed a plan a month or two ago that would have the exhibition hall being built below ground level on the ford site with a connecting tunnell to Cox and still believe we would get more bang for the buck in going that way.

[pickles]

This not a "nice pretty thing". That is totally trivializing its purpose. Secondly, there is no evidence of mismanagement whatsoever, regardless of the insinuations. Third, they have raised considerably more than $300M and the latest action severely hurts any current fund raising efforts. Our nation is coming out of the worst recession since the great depression and some people can't understand the difficulty they might have had the last few years? Really?. Finally, Your conclusion is not based on fact.

You are wrong.

And the total I listed was not $300m. It was $300,000. That is the total amount they have raised from private, non-tribal sources since 2008. In fact, it's less than $300,000. If you do not believe this figure, you should direct an inquiry to their staff. You should not be so quick to criticize my conclusion when it is you who lacks the facts.

[Rover]

You are wrong.

And the total I listed was not $300m. It was $300,000. That is the total amount they have raised from private, non-tribal sources since 2008. In fact, it's less than $300,000. If you do not believe this figure, you should direct an inquiry to their staff. You should not be so quick to criticize my conclusion when it is you who lacks the facts.

$300M is $300,000, but may be old-school to some. M is roman numeral for 1,000 and used to be used frequently, but not so much now. K is used more now because in metric all the 1,000's start with k....kilogram, kilometer, etc. Generally million is MM.

If you choose to ignore the donations by the tribes, yes, you are correct. But they have contributed about $5 million. Since they are not part of the state, federal or city government contributions, I don't know why they wouldn't be considered private donations. Yes, the argument looks better if they are ignored.

[Kerry]

$300M is $300,000, but may be old-school to some. M is roman numeral for 1,000 and used to be used frequently, but not so much now. K is used more now because in metric all the 1,000's start with k....kilogram, kilometer, etc. Generally million is MM.

Roman numerals - lol.

[progressiveboy]

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

[mcca7596]

I don't feel like we emphasize our unique Indian culture enough. We have the most tribes, but places like New Mexico and Arizona market their Native culture better I think.

[Kerry]

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

That is a really good idea. In fact, that is a great idea.

[kevinpate]

If for some reason this CC would not get finished then I would like for the city leaders to negotiate with the Green Family to locate their Bible Museum to this facility. I heard they are considering Dallas, Washington DC area for this permanent collection to be located in one of those cities. It would be a major coop to land this magnificient collection for OKC and bring an exciting world class museum. IMO Oklahoma has to many Indian attractions and I feel the city/state needs to expand their horizons. Just my two cents. That's all.

If memory serves, OKC would not be considered by the Greens, notwithstanding living here. They want the collection easily accessible to researchers as I recall from an earlier news report, ergo, near a DFW type air service, not a WRWA air service.

[Kerry]

If memory serves, OKC would not be considered by the Greens, notwithstanding living here. They want the collection easily accessible to researchers as I recall from an earlier news report, ergo, near a DFW type air service, not a WRWA air service.

That was before a partially built world class facility in a prime high-profile site became available.

[ljbab728]

That was before a partially built world class facility in a prime high-profile site became available.

Wrong, Kerry. I'm very familiar with what's happening with that museum project and money and a world class facility won't get it to OKC.

[Kerry]

Wrong, Kerry. I'm very familiar with what's happening with that museum project and money and a world class facility won't get it to OKC.

That is too bad then.

[OKCNDN]

That is why I suggested a casino district along the river from I-35 to I-40. Of course there would have to be some conditions to make it acceptable for me.

1. Non-smoking only
2. Full casino gaming/racebook/etc
3. A limit on the number of slot machines
4. Casino has to be on water
5. Open to any gaming company (not just Indians)
6. Tulsa would want a similar district.

This will not happen. The reason is not because it fails to make sense from a feasibility standpoint. A casino inside OKC would be a boon for a tribe. But a tribal casino can only operate on their former reservation lands. No tribe has a valid right to claim OKC as their own former reservation territory, OKC was in the unassigned lands. So for this reason no tribe is allowed to operate a tribal casino inside OKC.

Riverwind, Goldsby Gaming Center and Newcastle Gaming are just to the south of the South Canadian River. Those tribes tried to get as close as they possibly could to OKC. Those locations are as close as they can possibly get to OKC. South of the river is former reservation lands, north of the river is former unassigned lands.

But there is Remington Park and that is owned by the Chickasaw Nation. Remington Park is not run as a tribal casino. It is run as it was before the purchase by the Chickasaw nation. Only Remington Park and one other horseracing facility in the state were allowed to be non-tribal gaming facilities. There is limit on the number of gaming machines they can operate.

Another reason why a casino in OKC won't happen is a casino district is against the gaming compacts the state has with the tribes. Here is part of an actual gaming compact, the one between the state and the Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes. All gaming compacts are similar.

E. In consideration for the covenants and agreements contained herein, the state agrees that it will not, during the term of this Compact, permit the nontribal operation of any machines or devices to play covered games or electronic or mechanical gaming devices otherwise presently prohibited by law within the state in excess of the number and outside of the designated locations authorized by the State-Tribal Gaming Act. The state recognizes the importance of this provision to the tribe and agrees, in the event of a breach of this provision by the state, to require any nontribal entity which operates any such devices or machines in excess of such number or outside of the designated location to remit to the state at least quarterly no less than fifty percent (50%) of any increase in the entities’ adjusted gross revenues following the addition of such excess machines. The state further agrees to remit at least quarterly to eligible tribes, as liquidated damages, a sum equal to fifty percent (50%) of any increase in the entities' adjusted gross revenues following the addition of such excess machines. For purposes of this Part, "eligible tribes" means those tribes which have entered into this Compact and are operating gaming pursuant to this Compact within forty-five (45) miles of an entity which is operating covered game machines in excess of the number authorized by, or outside of the location designated by, the State-Tribal Gaming Act. Such liquidated damages shall be allocated pro rata to eligible tribes based on the number of covered game machines operated by each Eligible Tribe in the time period when such adjusted gross revenues were generated.

So any casino operation that opens up will have to pay 50% of their adjusted gross revenues which in this case has been defined as revenues minus payouts as prizes. So half of a casino's realistic operating revenue goes as a penalty to the state with no time limit on when such provision will end. Well, that's not totally true...this particular gaming compact is valid for 15 years but it will be renewed with the same language after the 15 years is up.

The Tribes were very smart to include language in their gaming compacts that gives them exclusivity. But the State got the lottery and the racetracks were allowed to have some gaming machines out of the deal. A casino inside OKC limits just won't be happening.

The Shawnee Tribe did propose a casino along I-35 in OKC. But the Dept. of Interior has turned down that request and will continue to turn down any similar request because it's illegal. The Seminole Tribe talked about buying Downtown Airpark but that didn't happen. Any tribe can do all the talking they want...it just isn't going to happen.

[Kerry]

So the state lets the Indians run a casino monopoly while the State picks up the $100 million price of the Indian Heritage Center. The State got screwed. Shut it down now.

[OKCNDN]

So the state lets the Indians run a casino monopoly while the State picks up the $100 million price of the Indian Heritage Center. The State got screwed. Shut it down now.

Nope not a monopoly at all. There are over 20 different, key word here is DIFFERENT, tribes that have casinos that compete with each other.

The state got the lottery out of the deal. It's not like they get the big goose egg out of the deal. One more thing...it will be the city who will be reaping the benefits of the tourists dollars and increased tax revenue that will come into town when the center is complete.

And the state approached the tribes about opening the Center, not the other way around.

[Kerry]

How do you figure the State got the lottery out of the deal. Did the State have some kind of previous agreement that prevented them from starting a lottery? I wonder if the gaming law has been test under the "equal protection" clause. States cannot enter into treaties either. I know this is a whole different dicussion but I wonder how legal these Indian gaming laws are.

[Rover]

How do you figure the State got the lottery out of the deal. Did the State have some kind of previous agreement that prevented them from starting a lottery? I wonder if the gaming law has been test under the "equal protection" clause. States cannot enter into treaties either. I know this is a whole different dicussion but I wonder how legal these Indian gaming laws are.

I am sure they were just made up and ignored by the federal government and the state. Nobody looked at them or considered the legality. That's just the way it is done. It is a big conspiracy because the Native Americans have huge political clout and no one wants to cross them.

Sarcasm intended.

[Kerry]

Your right Rover, every law ever passed was Constitutional. I don't even see why we have a Supreme Court.

Sarcasm intended.

[Rover]

Your right Rover, every law ever passed was Constitutional. I don't even see why we have a Supreme Court.

Sarcasm intended.

You know, now that I think about it you are correct. Many of the past deals with the Native American tribes were dishonest and unlawful. Taking the land, moving them cross country at great expense of lives, renigging on our treaties with them. Gosh, maybe that is the story so many here are afraid will be told at the new center.

[Kerry]

You know, now that I think about it you are correct. Many of the past deals with the Native American tribes were dishonest and unlawful. Taking the land, moving them cross country at great expense of lives, renigging on our treaties with them. Gosh, maybe that is the story so many here are afraid will be told at the new center.

So this is being built for 'white guilt'. This info is already covered at the numerous existing tribal heritage sites all over the country. Why do you think the State can tell the story any better than the Indians themselves can?

[Rover]

So this is being built for 'white guilt'. This info is already covered at the numerous existing tribal heritage sites all over the country. Why do you think the State can tell the story any better than the Indians themselves can?

Maybe because Oklahoma itself is the current home to 29 different tribes...some native and many brought here. It is the mosaic of the different tribes and cultures and the whole picture...not just one tribe at a time. It is about an important part of the Oklahoma history that should be on display. The OK history museum as it stands does not tell this story in depth nor does it have the room or facilities to do it.

As for the "white guilt" you toss out there...that is a favorite way of saying that you want to re-write the history books and forget about it. It usually makes some people feel better to ignore it. The entire accurate picture should be painted so it is never repeated again. I am of German heritage. I am not proud of the Nazi reign, nor do I feel guilty for something done before I was born and done in a far off country, but I don't want its story buried. Future generations need to know and learn from it.

[Kerry]

What if the Nazi built a tribute to the Jews that the Jews didn't want, but the Nazis built it anyhow and the Jews didn't want to pay for it, but the Nazi told them they should pony up their share?

[Rover]

What if the Nazi built a tribute to the Jews that the Jews didn't want, but the Nazis built it anyhow and the Jews didn't want to pay for it, but the Nazi told them they should pony up their share?

You should go to the Holocaust Museum in Washington. There are many tributes to the brave Jews and tragic victims around the world. Many of the wronged and displaced Jews of WWII became an important part of the American cultural fabric, so the US museum is important. Where I draw the line is if the Germans refused to build something that explained and showed the real history, or skewed the story to cater to bigotry or ignorance.

I have been to cultural and historical museums all over the world that celebrate their citizens, their history and their unique culture. They are important in telling the story for the rest of the world to witness. That is why I feel strongly about this being built. Visitors will not spend a week traveling all over the state to visit their various individual sites, but they will go to this museum and spend an afternoon or a day and learn something significant.

[earlywinegareth]

My consternation with this project is this: how can they accurately represent the history & culture of 39 distinct tribes under one roof? Seems to me the best they can hope to achieve is a summary and cursory representation that IMO will leave visitors underserved. If that's their intent, fine.