Union Station - Transit Discussions

[DavidGlover]

The building is great but what is really amazing is where all the rail lines go, Tinker, Will Rogers, Norman, Tulsa and to all major points in the state. Isn't it a shame to tear all those lines up for the just highways and cars? Is there some way for the the rail lines to be preserved? Seems like Union Rail Yard is a jewel that once gone seals the fate of highways and cars over a future smart good public transit hub for the state.

[Kerry]

DG - have you seen the condition of the rail yard? It is beyond salvageable. The only good part about it is the right-of-way but that can be purchased somewhere else, like under the new boulevard. A little cut and cover when the new iconic road is built and downtown OKC would have a really nice underground main rail station connected to Core to Shore, downtown, the Conncourse system, Bricktown, The Ford Center, and the new convention center. No way could Union Station compete with that.

[David Pollard]

Have a look at this place called "Chijmes" in Singapore. It is a wonderful complex of restaurant and entertainment venues that were created out of a former convent. The atmosphere is unique in the world, but given the architectural heritage of union Station, I could see a similar restoration and use for OKC. It would take vision and courage, but anchoring C2S with such a location would be an automatic draw for development in the area.

First thing though.... get rid of that post-office building in front of the station!

CHIJMES

[Tom Elmore]

The rail yard at OKC Union Station is "beyond salvagable?"

What?

What qualified individual would make such an assertion?

Now that all seem to agree that the Union Station terminal building is everything those of us who have been fighting for for nearly 20 years have claimed it is -- I guess I'd have to say, "welcome -- what took you so long?"

The original platform tracks were laid with 90 lb per yard rail. It was removed in a "progressive maintenance salvage operation" a few years ago. Modern standards call for at least 115 lb per yard rail. Relaying the yard lines per some modern update of the original plan is no problem. It would have needed to have been done anyway.

The platform shelters could be easily rebuilt.

Obviously, the important, irreplaceable aspect is the primary capital engineering -- grading, access, etc. With respect to those things, the yard is precisely as designed today.

Compare it to the "all new Ft. Worth Intermodal Center" -- where Heartland Flyer patrons must cross live rail lines carrying regular, fast Trinity Railway Express commuter trains, on foot, at grade.

The pedestrian and freight tunnels like those at OKC Union Station are expensive -- which is why you can't afford to destroy them if you already have them.

Anybody go into the passenger tunnels? Express freight tunnels?

Anybody know that Thurman Magbee deliberately built modular office space in the grand waiting room of stick and drywall -- so it could be easily removed to return the station to its original grandeur for passenger service?

Note that most of the surface floor space of the terminal building is Mail, Baggage and Express handling facility. That accurately portrays the classic "revenue pie" that traditionally supported intercity commercial passenger services.

Oh -- and that "Post Office?" That's why it's there.

So it goes in Oklahoma City.

Welcome to the Post 9-11-01 World. Glad you've noticed the tools we need to function in it.

TOM ELMORE

[Pete]

Tom,

I know you have been preaching the virtues of Union Station and the existing infrastructure for some time.

With the I-40 relocation, is reestablishing it as a functioning rail station still doable? Do you think that is still the best way to proceed with passenger rail in OKC?

Anybody go into the passenger tunnels? Express freight tunnels?

Anybody know that Thurman Magbee deliberately built modular office space in the grand waiting room of stick and drywall -- so it could be easily removed to return the station to its original grandeur for passenger service?

I was told the passenger tunnels were being used for storage and that they weren't readily accessible.

And yes, as I pointed out in this thread, the walls and second floor added in the larger rooms were clearly placed on top of the original floors and don't seem to have inflicted any permanent damage. Thank goodness for that!

[Tom Elmore]

One of the reasons ODOT and its minions deliberately planned "a new Crosstown" through the Union Station yard was that they wanted rid of that facility. They know what it means -- and are determined to deny its use to the people of the state.

That, alone, is at least as important to them as any "new highway."

And Istook -- what does he care about "a New Crosstown?" I'd argue it's entirely clar that what he was determined to fund was the destruction of our rail center.

(Think I'm exaggerating? Not one bit.)

These are bad peole -- doing bad things for bad reasons. (Clear enough?)

I repeat: Intelligent reuse of Union Station is the only hope Oklahomans now living have of seeing a comprehensive, regional, multimodal transit system in their lifetimes.

Cornett and company know it. That's precisely why they want it gone.

As noted: Bad people doing bad things for bad reasons. (Ever been threated with "a thousand cops" by the Mayor's pecksniffian little assistant? Ever spent a night or two in the Okla. County lockup -- while you're trying to put a transit forum together?)

The tunnels, etc., are readily accessible -- and should be seen. Meet me down there. I'll show you.

Union Station is the answer. I know of no other answer -- but I sure know why those attempting to destroy it pretend "other answers are no big deal."\

Hey apart from reverent, intelligent reuse of the gifts of our forbears -- all that's required is "time and money" -- and Oklahoma is fresh out of both.

Check the sound and video files, as well as the links on the North American Transportation Institute website (yes, I know, long overdue for update). Also check the Union Station section at "nomoron," which is a "dot com."

TOM ELMORE

[Pete]

Tom,

Before I even read your last post I did see the videos and slideshow and listened to the podcasts.

Your comparison of Dallas' multi-modal rail station was especially enlightening because it seems we actually have better infrastructure for what they have done -- and could do it better.


However, it seems this battle has already been lost. I can't imagine how the railyard can be saved with all the money, work and plans that have already been committed.

I would suggest the best hope is that Union Station itself is preserved.

[BoulderSooner]

One of the reasons ODOT and its minions deliberately planned "a new Crosstown" through the Union Station yard was that they wanted rid of that facility. They know what it means -- and are determined to deny its use to the people of the state.

That, alone, is at least as important to them as any "new highway."

And Istook -- what does he care about "a New Crosstown?" I'd argue it's entirely clar that what he was determined to fund was the destruction of our rail center.

(Think I'm exaggerating? Not one bit.)

These are bad peole -- doing bad things for bad reasons. (Clear enough?)

I repeat: Intelligent reuse of Union Station is the only hope Oklahomans now living have of seeing a comprehensive, regional, multimodal transit system in their lifetimes.

Cornett and company know it. That's precisely why they want it gone.

As noted: Bad people doing bad things for bad reasons. (Ever been threated with "a thousand cops" by the Mayor's pecksniffian little assistant? Ever spent a night or two in the Okla. County lockup -- while you're trying to put a transit forum together?)

The tunnels, etc., are readily accessible -- and should be seen. Meet me down there. I'll show you.

Union Station is the answer. I know of no other answer -- but I sure know why those attempting to destroy it pretend "other answers are no big deal."\

Hey apart from reverent, intelligent reuse of the gifts of our forbears -- all that's required is "time and money" -- and Oklahoma is fresh out of both.

Check the sound and video files, as well as the links on the North American Transportation Institute website (yes, I know, long overdue for update). Also check the Union Station section at "nomoron," which is a "dot com."

TOM ELMORE

your bias is so sad it is almost funny ... you repeating something over and over doesn't make it true ...

union station was in a horrible location for a transit hub ... with out the cross town moving it would have remained basically in the ghetto ..

we will have a new transit center most likely as part of maps 3 ...

called very civic minded leaders "bad" people is funny ... are you in jr high??

[Tom Elmore]

I've apparently been places you haven't been and seen things you haven't seen, Boulder -- or is that possible?

TOM ELMORE

[PennyQuilts]

Wow, that place is just lovely!

[Pete]

Tom,

It seems the only way to really push your conclusions (and observations) into the limelight is to summarize them in such a way that is supported by facts.

You've got lots of data and information out there but unless you can present a very compelling case, the train (excuse the euphemism) has already left the station in terms of the new I-40 alignment.

I admire your dedication and passion to this cause. It certainly can't be for self-gain so I no one should have any reason to doubt your motives.

It seems to me you have one last chance to save the rail infrastructure you see as so vital... And that is to document the corruption you claim is behind all this.

If you've already done this in a concise way, I'd certainly like to see it and I'm sure others would as well. If you don't want to do it for personal reasons, I can understand that as well.

[Tom Elmore]

Pete, there's plenty of precedent for what's happening here -- specifically going back to the completely unbelieveable destruction of Penn Station in NYC.

Read Lorraine Diehl's book, "The Late, Great Pennsylvania Station." There's plenty of reference to it on the web.

How could it have happened?

It may have been architect / critic Philip Johnson who said of that "temple of capitalism," "it is inconceiveable that such a patrimony would have been sacrificed by reasonable leaders."

Inconceivable?

Ask 'em in Salt Lake City -- where they hard-headedly turned the historic equivalent to OKC Union Station's yard over to a developer for a "retail mall" -- apparently just a couple of years prior to the coming of Light Rail.

They wouldn't take "no" for an answer...

When the rail finally came, finally showed its incredible capabilities under the world spotlight of the Winter Olympics, the disastrous mistake that had been insistently, self-righteously made was plain for all to see.

As Utah Transit Director John Inglish told me and St. Louis Citizens for Modern Transit XD Tom Shrout on March 11, 2003, "...we'll never live it down." Nor, he indicated, will what they will be able to produce as a "replacement" -- at the cost of millions and millions of dollars and a lot of precious time -- ever come near what they might have had if only they'd had a little more patience, a little more vision.

Heck -- there's the Titanic.

King Saul.

"OKC Urban Renewal."

History is strewn with the wreckage demanded by arrogant hubris. Somehow, it's "always a surprise" to some. But arrogant hubris is ever with us -- which is why Justice Robert H. Jackson, echoing the warnings of statesmen through the ages -- warns us that the job of the citizen is "to keep government from falling into error."

Hard to do that job "waving pom poms."

In NYC, they still mourn and bleed -- and bleed and mourn over Penn Station. Penn Station is ever with them -- in movies, in print, in photographs. Those whose fathers and mothers could not bring themselves to stand effectively against the profaning of that monument would now be happy to have just a crumb from the table of Mead, McKim and White, architects. So -- they've long worked to transform the Farley Post Office, directly across the street -- into "the new Penn Station."

The Farley, of course, was near Penn Station for a reason -- and the rail tunnels serve it, as well.

In a strange irony, though -- it will always be "the Farley" -- and never be the genuine article, though "called" Penn Station. It will always be a bittersweet "thumb-in-the-eye" of all who know what happened and why it happened.

This is precisely why we've long said -- in a state manifestly short on history and historic structures -- we should view the Union Station yard as the gift of our great grandparents to our own grandchildren. We should consider "what we're leaving them" (massive, burgeoning debt, born of vain, stupid, narcissism and greed) -- and ask ourselves, standing in the shadow of many wiser generations than our own, "What qualifies us to deny this gift to those who will come after us?"

Settle for "saving just the terminal building?"

Just a thumb in the eye -- as long as the city stands; a testament to the foolishness and profanity of this generation.

With all the power that was arrayed against it, there were those who couldn't imagine the Walnut Bridge, refurbished and bright, still standing today a few years back. But there it stands -- because the battle was fought where the battle actually was. ... and the laughable editorial writers of the "state's largest newspaper" are still pouting about it like fourth graders in the dunce corner.

Am I making guarantees?

I wouldn't do so. But the battle is being fought today where the battle actually is.

Can we win this fight? You can't do anything if you don't try. You can't win a fight if you don't get back up when you're knocked down.

I'll be dadgummed if I'm gonna let a bunch of cheap politicians "talk me out of" protecting our grandchildrens' heritage.

TOM ELMORE

[Kerry]

Let me know how the battle against the windmills goes.

[sethsrott]

Amen to that =))

[Tom Elmore]

The battle against the windmills?

Let me suggest you'll get a "better view" from the Walnut Bridge, or perhaps from the Oklahoma Railway Museum.

I guess you figure citizenship is "a spectator sport?"

TOM

[edcrunk]

i can't believe that istook and cornett did that to salt lake and new york city! i had no idea this highway conspiracy is far reaching and they are truly bad men!
hahah
anyways, you're blowing a lot of hot air but few facts. your attitude in your first post was that we believe the way we do because we don't understand the purpose of an intermodal station and are also ignorant to the facts (and would, of course believe as you do if enlightened). so who is to benefit the rail yard being gone? why are the politicians doing their dirty work? and isn't rail being proposed for maps 3? why would a new intermodal station not work in a more convenient location?
you've yet to say anything to convince me. so please do it... for the sake of my grandchildren

[Tom Elmore]

Maybe you can tell me what proportion of annual contributions to the "Federal Highway Trust Fund" is provided by the industry that damages federal roads the most -- and "who pays the rest?"

My attitude is to tell you what I know. What you make of it is your business.

I suspect, however, the air "smells a lot different" if what you're breathing hasn't been filtered through some of these fine politicians first.

You might wanna give it a try sometime.

TOM ELMORE

[BoulderSooner]

Maybe you can tell me what proportion of annual contributions to the "Federal Highway Trust Fund" is provided by the industry that damages federal roads the most -- and "who pays the rest?"

My attitude is to tell you what I know. What you make of it is your business.

I suspect, however, the air "smells a lot different" if what you're breathing hasn't been filtered through some of these fine politicians first.

You might wanna give it a try sometime.

TOM ELMORE

clearly .. you know very little .. as far as facts go .. your jaded view of things and revisionist history .. don't help sell your opinions ..

you want to "make a difference" ... then give some facts ...

and and the walnutt bridge .. it is great that it was saved .. but i would not have been that big of a deal if it was gone ..

[sethsrott]

Tom, you are starting to sound like a broken record...a hostile broken record! (chuckles when he pictures a mental image)

I suspect, however, the air "smells a lot different" if what you're breathing hasn't been filtered through some of these fine politicians first.

What on earth is that supposed to mean? other than the fact that 1) existing crosstown is crumbling 2) if OKC/ODOT started light rail service today, the crosstown would still need moving (not everyone will take the train , New York is a great example, they have the most advance and used mass transit system in the country and they still have cars on the road) 3) we are tired of chunks of our highway falling through to the street underneath.

Shouldn't you be advocating Freight Rail (why would we want that downtown) more than passenger because if you were insinuating by you "the industry that damages federal rads the most" by trucking that a passenger rail service wouldn't save the roads a bit...pick a side

[Tom Elmore]

Suffice it to say that today's Oklahoma seems to be uniquely afflicted with those who "know the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Those who consistently make a difference know enough to work where the desired outcome is possible. Along the way, others who "have ears to hear" will presumably do so.

It's a question of attitude and general understanding.

Ultimately, I've observed that "work is expensive -- talk is cheap."

It's only natural that any accomplishment, especially when "originally pronounced impossible" would mean more to those who'd worked to bring it about than to those who did not do so.

As I recall, that's what the children's fable, "The Little Red Hen" is all about. But, then, that's also partly what Al Capp's famous comic strip "Lil' Abner" was about."

I wish you all the "best possible outcomes..."

TOM ELMORE

[BoulderSooner]

Suffice it to say that today's Oklahoma seems to be uniquely afflicted with those who "know the price of everything and the value of nothing."

Those who consistently make a difference know enough to work where the desired outcome is possible. Along the way, others who "have ears to hear" will presumably do so.

It's a question of attitude and general understanding.

Ultimately, I've observed that "work is expensive -- talk is cheap."

It's only natural that any accomplishment, especially when "originally pronounced impossible" would mean more to those who'd worked to bring it about than to those who did not do so.

As I recall, that's what the children's fable, "The Little Red Hen" is all about. But, then, that's also partly what Al Capp's famous comic strip "Lil' Abner" was about."

I wish you all the "best possible outcomes..."

TOM ELMORE

funny .. because .. i was going to say that so far you have shown to be all "talk" and no substance ..

[betts]

Huh?

[The Old Downtown Guy]

. . . .and and the walnutt bridge .. it is great that it was saved .. but i would not have been that big of a deal if it was gone ..

. . . . Walnut Avenue Viaduct to be totally accurate. But, that's not important.

Obviously you never sat down with the engineering drawings of the Walnut Avenue four lane, twenty degree inclined street, complete with the railroad crossing at the bottom of the hill, surrounded by concrete retaining walls reaching thirty feet in height.

That’s the short description of the street that, then, OKC Public Works Director Paul Brum and Bricktown developer (small d) Jim Brewer, tried to pass off as a lovely tree lined boulevard to replace the historic bridge, for which you display so little appreciation. Fortunately, there were a few people that didn't think it was a good trade.

But, apparently you no longer haunt these streets BoulderSooner. So how does life in Boulder differ from OKC. Does our little town look appealing from afar? How long have you been gone? Planning on returning?

All the best.

[edcrunk]

i'm very happy the former walnut strret bridge turned out like it did. i come at it from a historical standpoint.

[Kerry]

How much of the original Walnut Street bridge survived the rebuilding?