Lifechurch plans growth at Edmond campus

[metro]

Caught this in the Edmond Sun this morning.

Life Church plans growth
John A. Williams
The Edmond Sun


EDMOND— Edmond Planning Commissioners face a short agenda of only four items Tuesday.

First is consideration of an amendment to a previously accepted plat of the Boulevard Place addition. This is the first case with the new Title 22 ordinance where notices are required when there is a redivision of a previously accepted plat, City Planner Bob Schiermeyer said.

Builder Gary Randolph is requesting deed approval to create three lots west of Rankin, south of Steve Douglas Drive across from Central Middle School.
The commission also will consider a site plan for a more than 29,000-square-foot expansion to Life Church at 4500 E. Second St.

The church is proposing a 4,700-square-foot office expansion, a 9,700-square-foot lobby expansion and a 14,600-square-foot children’s wing and hall addition.

Commissioners will consider a deed approval of 2.15 acres north of 15th Street and west of Kelly for a potential fire station site. The City of Edmond is considering buying the land east of the Westbrook Shopping Center.

Another item up for consideration is an ordinance amending Edmond Plan IV to no longer require Planned Unit Development applications for amendments to the Edmond Plan as a minimum requirement with every application.

The planning meeting will begin at 5:30 p.m. at the Downtown Community Center, 28 E. Main in Room 107. The meeting will be broadcast live on the city’s government access channel 20 on Cox Cable.

[jbrown84]

And this is the first you've heard of this, metro?

[kmf563]

They are adding another campus in Tulsa too.

[metro]

yes jbrown, I did hear about what kmf stated that we just announced a 2nd Tulsa area location. The first location was getting so many people in the fire marshall had to turn some people away because it was so packed.

[oneforone]

I am tired of seeing churches expand or add locations. I would like to see these churches open homeless and battered women shelters. At least they would be doing god's work such as feeding the hungry and taking care of those who are less fortunate.

Then again shelters do not put a new mercedes in the pastor's drive way, by him a house in Cabo, cover his drug addiction, or pay the little naive college girl to keep her mouth shut about the little oops he concieved with her.

[metro]

Didn't know lifechurch.tv's pastors drove a mercedes, vacay house in cabo, drug addiction, etc. In fact, I know several LC pastors that have old, run down cars. Lifechurch.tv does have inner city ministries such as Mercy Ministries that cater to homeless, battered, neglected, poor and others on a daily basis. The church recently had a homeless event in downtown OKC 2 weeks ago and ministered and helped over 1000 homeless people.

LC also provided families and teachers of Tulakes elementary (states poorest and most crime ridden school district) Thankgsiving meals. The church is also providing Christmas gifts for the 20,000 plus kids in the Oklahoma County DHS and Juvenile system who would otherwise not have a Christmas.

I'm tired of people bashing churches but yet they expect the churches to do the work most people and governments don't want to do (take care of the homeless, help the poverty stricken, help the abused, provide free medical care, etc.) while most people just sit and complain about it and do little or nothing. I think the church should play a vital role in these areas and more, however it takes a community to address these problems.

Just curious oneforone, seems like God's blessed you with the burden to help the homeless and battered women. Have you opened a homeless or battered women shelter?

[jdsplaypin]

I just bought my homeless boy's lifepack today! The reason i said my homeless boy is b/c you can choose boy/girl & age. Also, you can choose a homeless child, foster care child, or single parent child. Oneforone, please feel free to donate a lifepack as well!

[jbrown84]

I am tired of seeing churches expand or add locations. I would like to see these churches open homeless and battered women shelters. At least they would be doing god's work such as feeding the hungry and taking care of those who are less fortunate.

Then again shelters do not put a new mercedes in the pastor's drive way, by him a house in Cabo, cover his drug addiction, or pay the little naive college girl to keep her mouth shut about the little oops he concieved with her.

I can assume that you are not a church attender. I don't stereotype you by assuming you must be a drug dealer who beats his wife and doesn't pay child support and embezzles money from his employer. So how about you don't stereotype every church based on a few situations that the media sensationalized? Mmmmkay?

[Edmond_Outsider]

I assume you don't know much about the ugly money driven underbely of the religion industry, of which Groeshel and LC are at the zenith of. This business sensationalizes itself quite sufficiently without any help from the media. So putting it off of the media is less than honest.

The name Richard Roberts ring some bells? Mmmmkay?

Rev. Gary Aldridge, Mmmmkay?

Lonnie Latham, Mmmmkay?

Ted Haggard, Mmmmkay?

And that's just the past year.

Any preacher who builds a cult of personality around themselves is more often than not found at the business end of a scandal. They go hand in glove together.

There are exceptions, but most of them were probably either not caught or better at bribery.

And, in complete honesty, LC reveals very, very little about how Groeshel lives or the perks and privileges he is afforded in his position. He does not live like a pauper or even a middle class guy. He has quite a number of the accoutrements of the ultra-wealthy like a driver. He has admitted as much. I promise you the demands of driving across town a few times for services is no less demanding the average parent who's shuffling around their kids.

Groeshel doesn't seem to do much kid shuffling. I'd bet they have somebody that does that for him and his wife since she directs the home school program which has to be a big job.

So, I'd be fairly careful in how you describe his ability to walk on water. In fact, you might try to remove the scales from your eyes and try to see the LC corporation for what it is--a huge money making machine that markets Groeshel's purported "charisma" and rather indistinct and pedestrian theology as something profound and spiritual.

If this is possible, you might still like LC. Some people find Wal-mart a quality shopping experience.

You might also consider that there are are also millions of people who do Christ's work without the benefit of millions of dollars of high tech production. The people to minister to the world anonymously as Jesus advocated rather than the huge spectacle of the pharisee and money changer operations of the mega-church.

You love Groeshel. Good for you. All charismatic evangelists need a flock to fleece to keep the empire growing.

So, feel good that you have a "special purpose" for LC. Maybe you'll become a "fully developed follower of Christ before the megalomania and shallowness of the enterprise burns you out.

[jbrown84]

You might not want to put words in my mouth.

I do not LOVE Craig Groeshel, nor do I agree with everything that Lifechurch does. I do not attend there and never will. If you read the last few pages of the Lifechurch thread, you will see that I disagree with many of their tactics.

But I felt the need to defend them because, unlike Richard Roberts and others like him who have been money-grubbing slimeballs for years, Groeschel and Lifechurch have no record of unethical practices, and I'm tired of people assuming that all popular pastors/churches must automatically fall into the same category as Ted Haggard and Jim Bakker. You just don't hear about the good ones in the media. For the 4 scandal-stricken ministers you listed, there are hundreds and hundreds that did nothing wrong.

[Edmond_Outsider]

Pardon me if I mischaracterized your opinion.

You might be a little more leery of Groeshel. I've been following the words and actions of LC for over 10 years and I'm pretty sure when Groeshel says "fully devoted follower of Christ," he really means "fully devoted follower of Groeshel."

I could be wrong but it's hard not to see LC as a money and ego driven enterprise more than anything else.

As for the "hundreds and hundreds", there really aren't that many who have operations the size of LC and those which are are almost never particularly virtuous.

[TStheThird]

Edmond_Outsider... do you or have you ever attended LC? Are you involved in the church... LifeGroup, Volunteer, anything? Or do you just follow from a distance? Do you know what kind of accountability is in place for Craig and the way he lives his life? Do you know how much LC employees are paid? Are you Southern Baptist?

[Edmond_Outsider]

Yes, I've attended services at LC and on the virtual church. Don't try and claim that doesn't count because, after all, that's what it's there for. I am not involved in the "life" branded groups because I'm an active member in a small church--not SBC or trying to compete with Groeshel.

I began following LC and Groeshel because I started hearing more and more about how "cool" it was, and "moving, and meaningful. My first impression was that I couldn't understand what the hubbub was. Whatever "charisma" Groeshel is supposed to have is lost on me.

In fact, he just reminded me of the bullies in high school who pick on the smallest guy in the class and flush his head in the toilet.

I also found his theology to be shallow. A rapid fire delivery of proof texts that promote a mostly moralistic theology but with enough undercutting using his patented "earthy humor" that it could easily fit any body's world view, theology, or life style.

Except homosexuals of course. Thom Collins' experience shows just how compassionate Groeshel can be when faced with losing his bid dollar homophobe followers.

But, all that is beside the point. I don't have to be a hollow eyed zombie adherent to offer a valid opinion on this organization.

As far as "accountability," I've seen the videos he's filmed in his house and it's fairly clear that he's not living a humble existence. But, that's beside the point.

I know how easy it is for any organization to manipulate "accountability" in order to do anything they want. Richard Roberts is merely the latest example of financial malfeasance capable by stacking the board in you favor.

I am not a Southern Baptist although they are certainly every bit as much part of the mega church phenomenon and every bit as corrupted by ambition, ego, and money.

My last "live" service was at the NW OKC branch and was a funeral. Not exactly a standard service but a service non the less. The eulogy's theme was "He who knows God, knows life." Sound familiar? If you can't say something nice, promote the brand. It's a good philosophy for a business, after all.

As for accountability, do you know what kind of accountability is in place for Craig?

If they are trying to be open and honest about it, they do a great job of hiding that information publicly.

What they aren't trying to hide is the full throttle ambition to grow the enterprise.

At some point, any ministry reaches a point where it becomes less about "ministering" and mostly about commerce. Once they reach that level, it is not very different from any other business and in business the only rule is , really, to do what ever you must to increase market share, increase profitability, and get big or die.

[solitude]

Yes, the branding of LifeChurch goes too far, I agree. "Life" everything. The body doesn't exist for the church, the church exists for the body. In fact, in Christian theology, the church IS the body - so branding the experience is actually heretical as the experience is actually nothing more than Christ alive in the body - or church. In the case of LifeChurch, and many mega-churches, it seems that the opposite is preached. Jesus is nothing more than the catalyst which brings everybody on Sunday to promote LifeChurch (or Joel Osteen's church or many other mega-churches). I'm no Christian fundamentalist by any stretch, but the "branding" of the church before the message of Christ is truly idolatrous.

[TStheThird]

Do you know that LC gives all of their branded LC materials away to any church or group that wants to use them. Most "mega" churches sell there materials (videos, teaching materials, study guides, lifegroup lessons, etc. etc.). LifeChuch gives them away to hundreds of churches.

There is quite a bit of accountability in place for Craig. I am not going to debate LC with you guys. People love to bash on LC, some with good reason. I used to look at LC in a negative light. Before I moved, I volunteered at multiple services and participated in a LifeGroup. Being apart of the church body and not just attending a service changed my perspective as I suppose it would with any church. My involvement with the staff and other volunteers gave me insight in to the church leadership and the mission and vision. For me... it is exciting. For others, it is not their thing.

I don't understand why "Christians" love to bash churches that are not their own. I have seen it happen at every church I have ever been a part of. Most of the reason that I stopped attending church for a few years. I have very strict legalistic friends that judge those that are more free spirited. I have free spirited Christian friends that bash on the ones that are legalistic. Different strokes for different folks.

I respect your opinion to not like LC, but I don't understand why you bash the church. I find it funny that you make claims that are completely false.

[metro]

Well said TS the third. Usually the bashers are the ones that don't have enough information to make a reasonable conclusion. I've seen Craigs house (probably a 250K house about 2500 or so sq. ft and he has 6 kids, it looks like the average suburban cookie cutter house) (probably smaller than many people's on OKCTalk), he doesn't have a driver although he does have a bodyguard sometimes because of people who make death threats to him and his family (something you probably don't have to deal with), he drives a modest car (a used GMC SUV), and he has multiple levels of accountability, more than I've seen for anyone christian or non-christian and I don't know how detailed it may be.

If LC was out to make a quick buck, why did they get rid of their "coffee shops" more than a year ago while all the more "traditional" churches are now putting them in. LC lost more than $100 grand on their bookstores last year because they sold items at or below cost and gives some away for free. As TStheThird said, LC also gives materials for free to thousands of churches around the world each week. LC is also closing all their bookstores by the end of the year to focus on missions and other ministries.

If you dispise the church so much Edmond Outsider, why do you waste your time with it and continue to follow it. Is it because you want it to fail and you haven't found something to nail it for after 10 years? I've gone to the church for almost 10 years now and it was not as you describe, if you have followed it for that long, you would know that the church does not refer to itself or believe it is a mega-church and that there is no mega-church in the world, how can any church claim that when their are 7 billion people in the world, and any given church only has a small portion of the population within it's membership. There is a whole world out their in need of the gospel.

[Martin]

ok... i've avoided this long enough.

first, i want to say that i also feel that comparing lifechurch with the likes of roberts, et al. is a bit unfair. while i'm skeptical of lc and its doctrine, i don't think that they are anywhere in the same ballpark as the major televangelists.

however, reading these posts have left some questions...

a couple of you have insisted that many 'levels of accountability' exist within lc's organizational structure. precisely what are these built in checks? please elaborate, i'd like to know.

second, it's been claimed that groeschel's house is relatively small. whoever has seen it, can you provide the home's location? i've never been able to find it on any county's tax records. even a cross street would be helpful. from looking at county records, i do know that some of the other senior pastors live in homes that are worth far more than 250k.

-M

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

If LC was out to make a quick buck, why did they get rid of their "coffee shops" more than a year ago while all the more "traditional" churches are now putting them in. LC lost more than $100 grand on their bookstores last year because they sold items at or below cost and gives some away for free. As TStheThird said, LC also gives materials for free to thousands of churches around the world each week. LC is also closing all their bookstores by the end of the year to focus on missions and other ministries.

I don't know a lot about it, but at a glance, I think you answered your own question. I'd say they're getting of their coffee shops and book stores because they're hemorrhaging money.

[metro]

mmm, some of the accountability measures that I do know (and I'm sure there are even more that I don't know about) is that Craig's and other LC pastors internet usage is monitored at work and at home, secondly, no one is allowed to travel alone while on work, males must travel with another male and females must travel with another female (obviously if a male traveled with a female, it would create temptation), they also meet with their accountability partners at least on a weekly basis that I know of and perhaps even a daily basis to make sure they are staying faithful in whatever areas. Those are all that come to mind off the top of my head, if I think of a few others I'm aware of I'll post them as well.

[metro]

I don't know a lot about it, but at a glance, I think you answered your own question. I'd say they're getting of their coffee shops and book stores because they're hemorrhaging money.

Point understood however don't you think the 100+K would be better spent elsewhere instead of "hemorraging" or supplementing coffee and books. After all, most of you criticize the church for not doing more works in the community, the money saved will allow the church to focus on other areas such as missions, new campuses (thus reaching more unsaved or unchurched and thus launching new ministries from those locations), compassion ministries, etc.

[Martin]

thanks, metro. when you discussed 'accountability' i had assumed that this related to finances given that everything else in your paragraph was discussing money. tsthethird, seemed to be discussing money when it came to accountability as well.

you say you've seen the house... where is it?

-M

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

Point understood however don't you think the 100+K would be better spent elsewhere instead of "hemorraging" or supplementing coffee and books. After all, most of you criticize the church for not doing more works in the community, the money saved will allow the church to focus on other areas such as missions, new campuses (thus reaching more unsaved or unchurched and thus launching new ministries from those locations), compassion ministries, etc.

That's one of the very few things that impresses me about organized religion. Most other areas about it make me want to puke.

The hard-sell tactics when it comes to saving people gets on my nerves the most I think.

[TStheThird]

Craig has people that monitor his finances. He has been offered double, triple what he makes at LC to pastor other churches. In 10 years, he will no longer take a salary. He is a very frugal person.

Metro is right about the other accountability that is in place. His life is completely transparent to a sizeable group of people not made up of the other "higher ups" in the churh.

I will say that when I first started going to LC, I thought a lot of the messages were watered down. In the last two years, I really feel like the messages have become more intense. A few have had a bigger impact on my life than any other sermons I have heard. The man has passion and vision. It excites me because their model for church is in line with the way I would organize and grow a church. Doesn't make it the best or "right", it makes it a church that has provided me community, fellowship, accountability, discipleship and opportunities to minister to others.

A lot of really talented people have taken a pay cut to be a part of what LC is doing.

[jbrown84]

Thom Collins' experience shows just how compassionate Groeshel can be when faced with losing his bid dollar homophobe followers.

What is this referring to?

[Martin]

craig has people that monitor his finances.

who are these people?

he has been offered double, triple what he makes at lc to pastor other churches.

which churches have extended this offer?


and still, metro... where is this house you saw?

-M