OKC vs. Tulsa Retail

[warreng88]

The retail explosion thread was created on 10/16/2013. In that first post, Pete said:

"Closest to the Western & Memorial intersection will be a large Healthplex. On 8/13/13, those 8 acres were sold for $3.489 million to a local LLC which plans to develop a large complex on that site"

I believe the Costco was set to go in the grocery section closer to Memorial on this map:

http://chisholmcreek.com/sites/defau...e-plan-tab.jpg

[Pete]

Costco originally had the St. Anthony parcel (SW corner of Memorial & Western) under contract. They backed out, Chisholm Creek ended up selling to St. Anthony as the developers needed the money to kick off the rest of the project, but both CC and Costco continued to talk about another site to the south of St. Anthony.

Costco never liked that newly proposed site as well and since they had been simultaneously looking in Tulsa, found a site they liked there better, so they put that one under contract.

I know one thing they really liked about the Tulsa site was that there wasn't a lot of undeveloped land nearby (unlike OKC's Memorial corridor) so they pretty much had a handle on the competition. Would not be easy for someone like Sam's or WinCo to move in anywhere directly adjacent.

Their plan was always to open one store in Oklahoma, then wait at least a year to open another. Just so happened they ended up going to Tulsa first; could have just as easily gone the other way around.

[theparkman81]

Costco will eventually be in OKC, along with other stores, I wouldn't be surprise when Costco comes they will open 4 or more stores in the metro.

[BDP]

If Costco or any business only cared about urban feel or cosmopolitan looks, the RGV would have no Costco, no anything.

Exactly. Costco has no relationship to being urban or cosmopolitan in any way, especially when talking about the Tulsa or Oklahoma City locations. Both locations are about as suburban as you can get and Costco is hardly some mecca of cultural variety. If anything, its presence detracts from a cosmopolitan atmosphere. That's why it was so silly when the guy from Costco even mentioned those two criteria. It's like if Chili's said they chose a market because of the town's high standard of culinary discernment.

I know I sound like a broken record on this point, but pretty much none of these national chains are going to add to either city's cosmopolitan feel or choose the markets to be a part of their emerging urban trends. However, Oklahoma City's retail options are becoming more varied and more urban, but it's because of local businesses, not national chains.

I understand many have chain envy and use it as a barometer of the relative retail health of the two cities, and that's fine, but framing it as a way to measure a city's urban life or cosmopolitan mix seems strange to me, because, usually it's the exact opposite. That is, the less overrun by chains a city is, the more cosmopolitan it feels.

[bchris02]

I understand many have chain envy and use it as a barometer of the relative retail health of the two cities, and that's fine, but framing it as a way to measure a city's urban life or cosmopolitan mix seems strange to me, because, usually it's the exact opposite. That is, the less overrun by chains a city is, the more cosmopolitan it feels.

I do think Costco and other major chains are important for a city's retail diversity, but I definitely agree with you about Webb's comments. It's one thing to say he chose Tulsa first because of concentrated income, but to say it's because Tulsa is more cosmopolitan is ridiculous and unprofessional. It also doesn't fit with the way Costco operates. It sounds like something that would be said by Tulsa's Chamber of Commerce or a commenter on the Tulsa World website.

[BDP]

I do think Costco and other major chains are important for a city's retail diversity.

Honestly, I think it works against it. Specifically with Costco, I'm not even sure their presence would bring in a single brand that is not already available in the market. It's more dilution than diversity. I'm not saying that Costco wouldn't be a nice addition for convenience and price for some shoppers, but I really think its contribution to a market's retail landscape is being way overstated.

[LandArchPoke]

I understand many have chain envy and use it as a barometer of the relative retail health of the two cities, and that's fine, but framing it as a way to measure a city's urban life or cosmopolitan mix seems strange to me, because, usually it's the exact opposite. That is, the less overrun by chains a city is, the more cosmopolitan it feels.

This is a very valid point. Washington, DC has very few chains within the district. Residents fought tooth and nail to keep Walmart out until the city council and mayor caved in hopes to spur redevelopment in the poorest Ward. Costco in Washington, DC is basically as far away from the city center as it could get and is footsteps from Maryland in one of DC's only suburban style strip centers. NYC's most "cosmopolitan" neighborhoods are that way because of local entrepreneurs

[josh]

I wouldn't be surprise when Costco comes they will open 4 or more stores in the metro.

That's highly unlikely.

[BDP]

This is a very valid point. Washington, DC has very few chains within the district. Residents fought tooth and nail to keep Walmart out until the city council and mayor caved in hopes to spur redevelopment in the poorest Ward.

That's what's kind of been ironic about this whole conversation to me. People seem to be saying that if one city gets one of these stores first or gets an exclusive, it somehow means that the city is more "urban" or "cosmopolitan" than the other. Meanwhile, cities that actually are urban and cosmopolitan not only aren't waiting for these stores to come in, these are the stores they are trying to keep out.

[bchris02]

That's what's kind of been ironic about this whole conversation to me. People seem to be saying that if one city gets one of these stores first or gets an exclusive, it somehow means that the city is more "urban" or "cosmopolitan" than the other. Meanwhile, cities that actually are urban and cosmopolitan not only aren't waiting for these stores to come in, these are the stores they are trying to keep out.

I do agree that having or not having Costco is not a barometer of how "cosmopolitan" a city is, I would be careful saying that lacking them is a positive especially considering how overly dominant Wal-Mart and Sams are in OKC. If OKC was a boutique city like Santa Fe or Aspen that would be one thing but that isn't the case. Cities that lack these types of retailers usually fall into one of two categories.

A) Cities that are so large and dense that big box retail cannot fit into their development strategy or conform to their building codes (Portland, San Francisco, Washington DC).
B) Cities that are economically distressed to the point that big box retail opts for the burbs over the city proper (St Louis, Detroit)

Neither is the case in OKC and in both cases you will find plenty of big box retail in the suburbs.

[BDP]

I would be careful saying that lacking them is a positive especially considering how overly dominant Wal-Mart and Sams are in OKC.

I would use Wal-Mart and Sam's as examples of how these stores hurt the overall retail mix of a market and the very reason you don't see a lot of retail diversity in Oklahoma City. Costco may be a step up, but the business model is essentially the same and will only make it harder for other businesses in their segments to compete, especially locals who can not achieve the scale or the government incentives national retailers like a Costco can. It just seems strange to me that anyone who feels Sam's or Wal Mart's presence is a negative would think that a Costco would be a positive.

[Swake]

Ok, here's a real one that I will be excited about.

REI at 71st and Riverside

City negotiating to open REI sporting goods store on Riverside Drive - Government - TulsaWorld

[bchris02]

Ok, here's a real one that I will be excited about.

REI at 71st and Riverside

City negotiating to open REI sporting goods store on Riverside Drive - Government - TulsaWorld

Per Pete's sources, an OKC location should be opening at the same time or soon after in the new Glimcher development.

[Pete]

Both those negotiations for REI (Tulsa & OKC) started about the same time.

Not sure which will be announced or open first but it's good news all around.


REI is legendary for it's customer service and tends to build a very loyal customer base. Lots to love about them and they are different than anything in Oklahoma right now.

[PhiAlpha]

Both those negotiations for REI (Tulsa & OKC) started about the same time.

Not sure which will be announced or open first but it's good news all around.


REI is legendary for it's customer service and tends to build a very loyal customer base. Lots to love about them and they are different than anything in Oklahoma right now.

And their president is a graduate of both OSU and OU. Not sure if it helps, but cool nonetheless.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

List of retail chain stores that have recently entered the state.
[/LIST]

Tulsa has the states only Pendleton in Utica Square. It also a couple of Belk locations, but stillwater has one now too, so this would fall in the "first in Oklahoma" category. I'll try and think of a few more.

[soonerfan_in_okc]

Please advise of any retail chains I have missed and I will keep a running list in the article.

Forgot to Add Warby Parker is opening in Brookside anyday now, so that makes a 2nd store in OK.

[jonny d]

Could not think of where else to put this, but it kind of makes me sick. OKC is the ONLY NBA market without an upscale department store. Kind of nuts to think about. and the worst part is, we are no closer to having one than we were when we got the Thunder. I hope someone takes a chance and tries for a Nordstrom, but I will not hold my breath.

[BoulderSooner]

Could not think of where else to put this, but it kind of makes me sick. OKC is the ONLY NBA market without an upscale department store. Kind of nuts to think about. and the worst part is, we are no closer to having one than we were when we got the Thunder. I hope someone takes a chance and tries for a Nordstrom, but I will not hold my breath.

what do you call upscale??

[jonny d]

what do you call upscale??

Nordstrom and higher (Bloomingdales, Neiman Marcus, Saks, etc). Nordstrom has stuff none of the department stores in OKC can even dream of.

[Pete]

Upscale department stores are dying; closing stores and very few are opening.

OKC got an NBA team after this shift had started.

[jonny d]

Upscale department stores are dying; closing stores and very few are opening.

OKC got an NBA team after this shift had started.

I am not saying OKC has no good retail (they do, I love Allton's!!). But it is kind of depressing knowing Nordstrom doesn't think enough of OKC to have a store here, yet they have stores in smaller markets, like Providence, among others. OKC has enough wealth to support one of these stores.

OKC needs one of these as a branding point. I am not criticizing anyone or their views, I just feel a Nordstrom would do wonders for OKC.

[bchris02]

I am not saying OKC has no good retail (they do, I love Allton's!!). But it is kind of depressing knowing Nordstrom doesn't think enough of OKC to have a store here, yet they have stores in smaller markets, like Providence, among others. OKC has enough wealth to support one of these stores.

I believe the problem is that OKC doesn't have a true upscale shopping center like Utica Square in Tulsa or like the lifestyle centers that are all over most other major cities. Most retail developments in OKC are 1980s-style strip centers or middle-tier enclosed malls. I would say that currently, the ONLY development that a Nordstrom or similar department store would be a good fit is Penn Square Mall and it would take a major expansion of the mall for that to happen. Plus, there is the reality that upscale department stores aren't expanding like they once were.

[Sooner.Arch]

I believe the problem is that OKC doesn't have a true upscale shopping center like Utica Square in Tulsa or like the lifestyle centers that are all over most other major cities. Most retail developments in OKC are 1980s-style strip centers or middle-tier enclosed malls. I would say that currently, the ONLY development that a Nordstrom or similar department store would be a good fit is Penn Square Mall and it would take a major expansion of the mall for that to happen. Plus, there is the reality that upscale department stores aren't expanding like they once were.

Wait what?... All of Nicolas Hills/Classen Curve is upscale. Utica Square is also so run down now, even the landscaping is terrible.

[bchris02]

Wait what?... All of Nicolas Hills/Classen Curve is upscale. Utica Square is also so run down now, even the landscaping is terrible.

You're right that Classen Curve is coming along nicely and is much improved compared to how it was under the previous owners. No space for an upscale department store though. Now if they would build the "lifestyle" portion that was originally supposed to be anchored by REI...