Population Growth for OKC

[bchris02]

Not surprising if you are from there like me. Lawton has stayed around 100-130 k since I was in High school. 1972. Nothing there but fort sill. Most of my classmates and other young people flee there as soon as they can. You will find them in Dallas, Houston or N C like me.

Fort Smith, Arkansas has also stayed around 80,000 since I can remember. There is pretty much nothing there these days. It's a town though where a majority of the young people hate it and talk about leaving but few actually do. My guess is Lawton is somewhat similar.

[Rover]

Actually Ft. Smith has grown to about 87,000 and the Metropolitan area is about 279,000. However, they are generous with the "area". The metropolitan area is also growing despite the fact they lost some industrial due to the national recession and lost a major retirement home development company. The average income is pretty good there as the national employers there pay pretty decently and they make up a pretty large segment.

[bchris02]

Actually Ft. Smith has grown to about 87,000 and the Metropolitan area is about 279,000. However, they are generous with the "area". The metropolitan area is also growing despite the fact they lost some industrial due to the national recession and lost a major retirement home development company. The average income is pretty good there as the national employers there pay pretty decently and they make up a pretty large segment.

Daily commutes to Ft Smith are the norm from as far west as Checotah or as far east as Clarksville AR. It has become a popular retirement destination as well. The town also shares a lot of cultural similarities with OKC and identifies more with Oklahoma than the rest of Arkansas.

[Just the facts]

I am not so sure about de-annexing any more as much as I am about making it off limits to development. One thing we know for sure, we don't have enough water to develop that land as single family homes.

Kerry, after all the discussions we have had about this, I'm glad to see that you're gradually coming around a little.

Education never ends

OKC should look into a program to buy development rights for rural land. Just like mineral rights can be sold, so can development rights. This would allow current owners to cash in on the development potential of their land without having to sell it, and then when they do sell it the program ensures nothing other than a farm can ever be built there.

[BG918]

Actually Ft. Smith has grown to about 87,000 and the Metropolitan area is about 279,000. However, they are generous with the "area". The metropolitan area is also growing despite the fact they lost some industrial due to the national recession and lost a major retirement home development company. The average income is pretty good there as the national employers there pay pretty decently and they make up a pretty large segment.

NW Arkansas (Springdale-Bentonville-Rogers-Fayetteville) is still growing rapidly, 6.21% since 2010. The metro pop. in the 4 counties adjacent to Oklahoma in Arkansas and Missouri is just under 500,000. That area is the economic engine for Arkansas.

[KayneMo]

Pretty good drawing. I would definitely include the Deer Creek area and the West Moore area though. A lot of people live in those areas and they are pretty affluent by Oklahoma standards. In fact, one of the wealthiest zip codes in the state is south of I-240 in SW OKC. Even it including those areas would drop the population density slightly, they are essential.

Here it is redrawn to include those areas!

Again, taking out the area of Lake Hefner and the enclaves and their populations, it comes out to be approximately 514,000 in 175.6 sq mi which = 2,927/sq mi.

[Bunty]

It's interesting that the Lawton population dropped by about 1,400. That has to be due to some downsizing at Fort Sill.

Otherwise, except for the Altus area, the western half of Oklahoma, overall, is adding population. The towns on I-40 are doing well. The energy boom is still booming.

[Spartan]

Daily commutes to Ft Smith are the norm from as far west as Checotah or as far east as Clarksville AR. It has become a popular retirement destination as well. The town also shares a lot of cultural similarities with OKC and identifies more with Oklahoma than the rest of Arkansas.

So does the Ft Smith commute overwhelm the one stoplight in Checotah?

[Spartan]

Not surprising if you are from there like me. Lawton has stayed around 100-130 k since I was in High school. 1972. Nothing there but fort sill. Most of my classmates and other young people flee there as soon as they can. You will find them in Dallas, Houston or N C like me.

Yeah, Lawton to NC is a surprising pipeline but that is the most common trajectory for folks I knew there. That connection makes the place feal more culturally southern (rigid old school, old money). Lawton has these strong connections that separate it from the rest of Oklahoma.

[DavidD_NorthOKC]

Not necessarily Lawton to NC - Ft Sill to Ft Bragg is a significant part of that equation I bet and less surprising.

[dcsooner]

Not necessarily Lawton to NC - Ft Sill to Ft Bragg is a significant part of that equation I bet and less surprising.

Correct, most come due to military transfer. Not a lot of Oklahoma transplants here just to move, I came here to escape DC when I retired.

[zookeeper]

Daily commutes to Ft Smith are the norm from as far west as Checotah or as far east as Clarksville AR. It has become a popular retirement destination as well. The town also shares a lot of cultural similarities with OKC and identifies more with Oklahoma than the rest of Arkansas.

Very true. Tulsa media does give Ft. Smith a steady dose of all things Oklahoma. Plus, they have a "junction" named for them in Oklahoma City. (!!!) Every time I hear "Ft. Smith Junction" I just sigh. It sounds so out-of-date, old-fashioned, something.

[adaniel]

Not necessarily Lawton to NC - Ft Sill to Ft Bragg is a significant part of that equation I bet and less surprising.

FWIW there is also a definite pipeline from Ft Bliss TX (El Paso) to Ft Sill. Surprisingly, both Lawton and El Paso MSA's recorded pretty subpar growth.

[ljbab728]

Every time I hear "Ft. Smith Junction" I just sigh. It sounds so out-of-date, old-fashioned, something.

That's interesting. I never give a second thought to that nomenclature. It's not an official designation and most people easily know exactly what is being talked about when it is called that. Do you feel the same about the Amarillo Junction?

[zookeeper]

That's interesting. I never give a second thought to that nomenclature. It's not an official designation and most people easily know exactly what is being talked about when it is called that. Do you feel the same about the Amarillo Junction?

I don't really know. Maybe it doesn't jump out at me as I rarely hear 'Amarillo Junction'. Good question though. I don't feel the same about the Tinker Diagonal or the Broadway Extension. Hmmm. Maybe it's just the "junction" - like I said originally, I really don't know what it is.

[soonerguru]

It does seem antiquated. It bothers me that we have signs advertising Fort Smith, Dallas, and Amarillo, but scant few advertising Downtown Oklahoma City along our highways.

[bchris02]

It does seem antiquated. It bothers me that we have signs advertising Fort Smith, Dallas, and Amarillo, but scant few advertising Downtown Oklahoma City along our highways.

That is everywhere. You don't have to get very far into Houston before you start seeing signs for San Antonio. I don't like when state use every little small town as control cities rather than the next major city. Being that I-40 doesn't even go through Fort Smith period, the eastbound control city out of OKC should be Little Rock.

[AFCM]

FWIW there is also a definite pipeline from Ft Bliss TX (El Paso) to Ft Sill. Surprisingly, both Lawton and El Paso MSA's recorded pretty subpar growth.

But the difference is that El Paso is about to explode with growth in the next few decades thanks to BRAC. That installation is a dump right now, but it's adding development at an impressive rate. I read an article about how Ft. Bliss has a current annual economic impact of about $1.5B for El Paso (give or take a few hundred thousand...I can't remember the exact figure). But after the effects of BRAC, Ft. Bliss is expected to haul in roughly $5B annually for El Paso. You can bet that El Paso is going to grow with that kind of influx of money.


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[soonerguru]

But the difference is that El Paso is about to explode with growth in the next few decades thanks to BRAC. That installation is a dump right now, but it's adding development at an impressive rate. I read an article about how Ft. Bliss has a current annual economic impact of about $1.5B for El Paso (give or take a few hundred thousand...I can't remember the exact figure). But after the effects of BRAC, Ft. Bliss is expected to haul in roughly $5B annually for El Paso. You can bet that El Paso is going to grow with that kind of influx of money.


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That's some serious "Our City Says FU" money.

[Bellaboo]

It does seem antiquated. It bothers me that we have signs advertising Fort Smith, Dallas, and Amarillo, but scant few advertising Downtown Oklahoma City along our highways.

I actually think this is a Federal guideline with the interstate highway system. There seems to be some rule about it.

[adaniel]

But the difference is that El Paso is about to explode with growth in the next few decades thanks to BRAC. That installation is a dump right now, but it's adding development at an impressive rate. I read an article about how Ft. Bliss has a current annual economic impact of about $1.5B for El Paso (give or take a few hundred thousand...I can't remember the exact figure). But after the effects of BRAC, Ft. Bliss is expected to haul in roughly $5B annually for El Paso. You can bet that El Paso is going to grow with that kind of influx of money.


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I'm pretty aware of the BRAC expansion at both Ft Bliss and Ft Sill, which is why it surprised me that both areas grew so slowly. If I am not mistaken, some of troop shifts should have started by now, but I could be wrong about that.

[HOT ROD]

^ but doesn't Dallas use 'Denton' on I-35 there instead of Oklahoma City as it's control city?

Is Denton that large/important of a city for a major Interstate to have it as a designation? Is Denton larger or more important than Oklahoma City? Isn't Denton part of the DFW metroplex - so why are they using it as a control city on a major interstate (I could understand I-135 or some spur freeway, but I-35?). With this the case, OKC should use Norman as a control then Denton as you go south.

^^ does I-40 go through Little Rock? I thought it went through North Little Rock and even then it didn't have a huge presence, with Little Rock itself served by spurs (I-440, I-640) and I-30 (I-630), iirc. Honestly, it should say Memphis (and in Memphis should say OKC) imo and I-40W should say ABQ since those are the major city pairs.

No offense to the smaller cities; didn't Saint Louis used to have I-44 showing "Oklahoma City" as a control point once-upon-a-time.

I've observed that Wichita is one city that gives OKC huge props as a control point within their freeway system. ... Honestly, I'd rename the Ft smith junction to the Wichita junction since it is I-40 converging with I-35, and Wichita is the largest city heading outside of that junction. But as others have said, junction really official to my knowledge and is only used by the media.

[HOT ROD]

I think that freeways should still say the host city until you have passed it's central business district. So on I-40 westbound, it should have arrows to Downtown OKC with Exits to Dallas/Edmond/Wichita/Tulsa as you hit the junction and it shouldn't start saying Amarillo until you've passed downtown. ..

I believe that is how we do it here in Seattle, you don't start seeing main signs for Vancouver BC until you reach Seattle CBD on I-5 northbound (although there are mileage signs showing Vancouver BC much farther south). Likewise for Tacoma/Portland going Southbound. It would suck to see main signs for Vancouver BC on I-5 N or Portland in North Seattle suburbs on I-5S when you haven't even reached Seattle yet. ... Why is this the case in OKC? More freeways perhaps, so more 'junctions'?

[bchris02]

^ but doesn't Dallas use 'Denton' on I-35 there instead of Oklahoma City as it's control city?

Is Denton that large/important of a city for a major Interstate to have it as a designation? Is Denton larger or more important than Oklahoma City? Isn't Denton part of the DFW metroplex - so why are they using it as a control city on a major interstate (I could understand I-135 or some spur freeway, but I-35?). With this the case, OKC should use Norman as a control then Denton as you go south.

^^ does I-40 go through Little Rock? I thought it went through North Little Rock and even then it didn't have a huge presence, with Little Rock itself served by spurs (I-440, I-640) and I-30 (I-630), iirc. Honestly, it should say Memphis (and in Memphis should say OKC) imo and I-40W should say ABQ since those are the major city pairs.

No offense to the smaller cities; didn't Saint Louis used to have I-44 showing "Oklahoma City" as a control point once-upon-a-time.

I've observed that Wichita is one city that gives OKC huge props as a control point within their freeway system. ... Honestly, I'd rename the Ft smith junction to the Wichita junction since it is I-40 converging with I-35, and Wichita is the largest city heading outside of that junction. But as others have said, junction really official to my knowledge and is only used by the media.

I believe Little Rock is an important enough city to be a control city on I-40. It may not be a major city but its the capital of a state and the only real dot on the map between Oklahoma City and Memphis. Nonetheless, I just came back from Arkansas and I noticed some new signage in Ft Smith pointing to Memphis as the ultimate destination for I-40 eastbound. As for Denton, Texas was once one of the states that did it like North Carolina and used small cities as control cities. On I-40 eastbound in NC, after Asheville, the next control cities are Biloxi, Statesville, Winston-Salem, Greensboro, then finally Raleigh. Raleigh, or at least Greensboro should be the control city as far west as Asheville. It surprises me that the Denton signage has not been replaced by Oklahoma City. I-40 going westbound through Amarillo used to have Tucumcari as its control city. Now it has Albuquerque.

[Laramie]

^ but doesn't Dallas use 'Denton' on I-35 there instead of Oklahoma City as it's control city?

Is Denton that large/important of a city for a major Interstate to have it as a designation? Is Denton larger or more important than Oklahoma City? Isn't Denton part of the DFW metroplex - so why are they using it as a control city on a major interstate (I could understand I-135 or some spur freeway, but I-35?). With this the case, OKC should use Norman as a control then Denton as you go south.

^^ does I-40 go through Little Rock? I thought it went through North Little Rock and even then it didn't have a huge presence, with Little Rock itself served by spurs (I-440, I-640) and I-30 (I-630), iirc. Honestly, it should say Memphis (and in Memphis should say OKC) imo and I-40W should say ABQ since those are the major city pairs.

No offense to the smaller cities; didn't Saint Louis used to have I-44 showing "Oklahoma City" as a control point once-upon-a-time.

I've observed that Wichita is one city that gives OKC huge props as a control point within their freeway system. ... Honestly, I'd rename the Ft smith junction to the Wichita junction since it is I-40 converging with I-35, and Wichita is the largest city heading outside of that junction. But as others have said, junction really official to my knowledge and is only used by the media.

It's Texas! They don't like to recognize Oklahoma or Oklahoma City.

North from Fort Worth before you get to I-35W/I-35E fork to Denton, you will see an individual small directional marker which shows the miles to Oklahoma City 191 miles; as you enter Denton you'll see 157 miles to OKC.

If Denton is so strategic, why not rename the Dallas junction to proclaim the Denton junction or use an in state city like the Pauls Valley or Ardmore Junction.

"Oklahoma City looks oh-so pretty... ...as I get my kicks on Route 66." --Nat King Cole.