Edge @ Midtown

[Larry OKC]

It is proceeding forward. This is one major project that affected our streetcar routing. We looked into it extensively. It will be done when the bonds are let.

So my guess, maybe 3-5 years? It sounds a though city staff is pretty distracted right now. lol

Do you know which bond issue this is from? Am thinking it might be from one of the 3 previous ones before the 2007 GO bond where an audit showed there were several bond projects that never got built (some going back 18 years at the time of the audit). The "excuse" from the City Manager at the time? The City had "higher priorities" (MAPS) and also some non-sense about not having anyone to supervise.

[Chicken In The Rough]

I'm no architect, but I'd love to see more underground parking and more lease-able space on top. It seems that much of the lot is devoted to the parking structure. I like the overall design, though. I think it would look great in midtown.

I don't really care if there is retail in the mix at this point. I think midtown already has a good amount of retail space available. Until we see several more large infill residential projects, I'm not certain midtown will support more retail.

I sure wish they could squeeze a couple more floors into the project. I think 4 floors is simply too low for urban core development. I realize they must be kind to Heritage Hills, but couldn't we extend it to 6 floors?

[Kerry]

Page 7 - this one puzzles me - would have to be Walker looking west or Dewey looking east,
but does not match with either page 10 or page 11 showing those views

I think that is the view from the park and pond looking west towards Dewey.

[Doug Loudenback]

Good eyes, Kerry. That's gotta be it. You can see green thingies hanging down from the top of the 3rd floor/bottom of 4th where the swimming pool & lounge areas are located. The pool must not be very deep.

[mcca7596]

Sorry, I can't figure out how to imbed the photos; copy and paste doesn't work and I can't upload the image as an attachment.

More renderings on OKC Central of Wiggin's and Henderson's respective proposals:

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/

[betts]

Two elevations of Henderson's plan are now posted at okccentral.com as well. If I'm reading the plans correctly, two sides of Henderson's plan are parking garage. As I said on Steve's blog, as far as I'm concerned, he should be a nonstarter, as we would have absolutely no idea what he would actually build if he got the goahead. And, if it were me, I wouldn't want Legacy to be my legacy. I don't want to see what any of his other ideas translate to.

[ljbab728]

I'm no architect, but I'd love to see more underground parking and more lease-able space on top. It seems that much of the lot is devoted to the parking structure.

Having underground parking would be nice but it's just not feasible for a project this size. It's not common for most similar projects in other cities and the extra costs would be considerable.

[Spartan]

Did Marva Ellard put a jihad on your family?

No, I like her project a lot, I just didn't have time to review the pdf on that one because I was in Amsterdam. There are three serious contenders I think, and interestingly Tanenbaum isn't one in my opinion, and it may come down to the trustworthiness of the applicants. If it's being evaluated by architectural standards and by the best planning merit, I think Wiggin's rises to the front.

But I do think there are questions about whether Wiggin or Henderson should be trusted. But keep in mind, even while Wiggin was waffling on Overholser Green, he was still pulling off successful projects in Tulsa, like the 420 Mayo one. And Wiggin has been a successful developer in the past, he just couldn't get a project full of Frasier-like flats off the ground here...

[betts]

But I do think there are questions about whether Wiggin or Henderson should be trusted. But keep in mind, even while Wiggin was waffling on Overholser Green, he was still pulling off successful projects in Tulsa, like the 420 Mayo one. And Wiggin has been a successful developer in the past, he just couldn't get a project full of Frasier-like flats off the ground here...

And if he had, everyone here would be criticizing him for thinking he could sell flats, when we all know only rental will succeed!

[city]

But keep in mind, even while Wiggin was waffling on Overholser Green, he was still pulling off successful projects in Tulsa, like the 420 Mayo one. And Wiggin has been a successful developer in the past, he just couldn't get a project full of Frasier-like flats off the ground here...

My thoughts exactly.. I think he thought he had a free option on the citizens money until he was good and ready to do something. I feel he took advantage BIG TIME.

[Spartan]

And if he had, everyone here would be criticizing him for thinking he could sell flats, when we all know only rental will succeed!

It's hard to say how much the market has improved and how many of these upscale condo units it would be able to support right now.

[onthestrip]

Not many. Still don't think okc is able to support many $200+/ft condos. Too many cheaper houses nearby and commuting to downtown is still fairly easy and quick. Not many reasons for people to drop that much on a condo.

[Rover]

Nice gated zero lot areas in suburban OKC go for $175-$250 a foot now. With the right designs and amenities, the condo's will sell.

[onthestrip]

Nice gated zero lot areas in suburban OKC go for $175-$250 a foot now. With the right designs and amenities, the condo's will sell.

Then why arent the current ones like that selling well now? And those are some expensive zero lot homes

[Rover]

Then why arent the current ones like that selling well now? And those are some expensive zero lot homes

The designs don't cater to those willing to spend that much. Product offering and market requirement doesn't match.

[betts]

Its uncertainty over how the area is going to develop and how property values will fare more than design. Even if statistically you can prove that a higher percentage of people in that price range prefer a different design, it doesn't begin to approach 100%. If nothing else, Block 42 and Central Ave villas have flats, and those aren't exactly flying off the shelves. I think it's as much the economy and uncertainty Bout a more urban lifestyle. It may even be the grocery store. Design is far too simplistic an answer.

[gracefor24]

Actually, the flats at Block 42 sold really quickly. The inventory is pretty much all townhouses. I bet if they had to do it over again they would have done all flats.

[Spartan]

Its uncertainty over how the area is going to develop and how property values will fare more than design. Even if statistically you can prove that a higher percentage of people in that price range prefer a different design, it doesn't begin to approach 100%. If nothing else, Block 42 and Central Ave villas have flats, and those aren't exactly flying off the shelves. I think it's as much the economy and uncertainty Bout a more urban lifestyle. It may even be the grocery store. Design is far too simplistic an answer.

I think it's all of the above, and yes I agree with the point you left out that these are all weak reasons, but all that can be said is I suppose there is a higher level of scrutiny and concern when you're investing $500,000+ into real estate. I hope that's a fair assumption that we can all agree on.

I hope that we can all agree that it would be nice to pick up the pace with development. The concerns that Betts mentions aren't going to be alleviated overnight, and they're going to continue to linger while upscale units would slowly be developed and even slower, but eventually, sell. Whereas we're fairly certain that upper-middle class apartments or more affordable condos would sell very quickly. We need some of that action. I think that for the concern over land values, having LEVEL or another upper-middle class apartment complex next door is infinitely more attractive than a mud pit.

I do think that building up the level of density has to be the concern. Downtown's housing market will continue to mature slowly and as that happens, the amenities and styles that Rover and Kerry and others might at some point be looking for, will naturally find their way into downtown. Just keep pursuing development and eventually some of the projects will offer those upscale alternatives.

[Rover]

Its uncertainty over how the area is going to develop and how property values will fare more than design. Even if statistically you can prove that a higher percentage of people in that price range prefer a different design, it doesn't begin to approach 100%. If nothing else, Block 42 and Central Ave villas have flats, and those aren't exactly flying off the shelves. I think it's as much the economy and uncertainty Bout a more urban lifestyle. It may even be the grocery store. Design is far too simplistic an answer.

Actually design and lifestyle has very much to do with it. Summarily dismissing it as an argument is a simple answer. Neither of the projects you point out with flats represent much of what is being sold to that particular demographic in other places. Mid rise and up towers with secure entries, door-men, valet, underground parking, spas, etc. sell in other markets and we have no building like that outside of Founders, and Founders struggles because the floor plans are awkward as they are offices converted to condos. Now I do agree that location and uncertainty also contribute greatly, as well as prestige, etc. People don't want to lose their money if the neighborhood becomes an urban slum and they don't want to be associated with an urban slum. So how the whole area is perceived is very important, as you point out. Mercy site won't have quite the same problem as Heritage Hills is established and protects it on the North.

[Spartan]

Does anyone legitimately think Deep Deuce or Mid-town will become an "urban slum?"

Where does this idea/fear keep coming from??

[USG'60]

Does anyone legitimately think Deep Deuce or Mid-town will become an "urban slum?"

Where does this idea/fear keep coming from??

I think the McMansion neighborhoods will become urban slums before either of them. Just my strong impression. McMansions can be converted to duplexes and fourplexes for "normal" folks.

[Rover]

Does anyone legitimately think Deep Deuce or Mid-town will become an "urban slum?"

Where does this idea/fear keep coming from??

Didn't mean to imply that either is an urban slum, but they are both pretty early in their development and at various times could have gone more upscale or more downscale. When investing in an area, most people don't want the most expensive home on the block...they would rather further development around them to be greater than what the have to help escalate their value.

[onthestrip]

Actually design and lifestyle has very much to do with it. Summarily dismissing it as an argument is a simple answer. Neither of the projects you point out with flats represent much of what is being sold to that particular demographic in other places. Mid rise and up towers with secure entries, door-men, valet, underground parking, spas, etc. sell in other markets and we have no building like that outside of Founders, and Founders struggles because the floor plans are awkward as they are offices converted to condos.

Then what design do you have in mind? I dont think the floorplans at Founders were that awkward. If there is any awkwardness it is made up in the panoramic views it provides. I think the Founders struggles were less from the floor plans you mention but more because of the prices, very top of the market. But thats what happens when you have secure entries, door men, valet, spas etc that you mention. And I wouldnt see it much different downtown, highrises are very expensive to build and live in. Theres a small market of potential renters right now.

[Spartan]

Didn't mean to imply that either is an urban slum, but they are both pretty early in their development and at various times could have gone more upscale or more downscale. When investing in an area, most people don't want the most expensive home on the block...they would rather further development around them to be greater than what the have to help escalate their value.

That sounds like wanting something from nothing to me.

[Rover]

That sounds like wanting something from nothing to me.

No, it sounds like reality and a little less naivety.