Downtown Grocery Store

[Pete]

Honestly I would rather a CVS or Walgreens than Wholefoods.

I want somewhere I can buy toothpaste, sunscreen, batteries. Random things that you would wish you could run down the street and get.

The Family Dollar at 11th & Classen serves that purpose for me. They have a little of everything and I can walk from my place.

[bchris02]

Yup. Very little has changed all along regarding the downtown discussion. These old ideas keep cycling back around, too..

At least downtown is getting more quality developments now. In 2006, it was pretty much all centered around Hogan's Lower Bricktown and some were giving up hope of OKC ever having an urban downtown. Back then, Midtown and the Plaza weren't the vibrant nightlife areas they have become and 23rd St was a place you still didn't want to walk around at night. Today things are looking a lot brighter. Still, as much that has changed, there is much that hasn't, this being one of them.

Hopefully by 2020 this discussion regarding grocery stores will be nothing but a memory.

[tfvc.org]

From what I remember of visiting DC and San Fran where they have such a large downtown like area I remember grocery stores, drug stores, and even Whole Foods having locations in regular tower like buildings, some stores were even 2-3 stories worth of storefront if the buildings were smaller than their usual footprint. In Spain there is a shopping cart design where the wheels will lock into a flat escalator to keep it from rolling down the steep ramp up. It isn't a matter of finding a location or getting them into an otherwise smaller footprint building, it is convincing them that an urban location is a profitable one.

[Dustin]

A Homeland like the one on Britton and May would kill downtown.

BTW, they've remodeled again and it's fantastic. It's mostly the produce department and they put in new coolers with doors like in the freezer section so the produce stays fresh longer. I really liked that addition.

They are definitely preparing for battle with Uptown.

[bchris02]

A Homeland like the one on Britton and May would kill downtown.

BTW, they've remodeled again and it's fantastic. It's mostly the produce department and they put in new coolers with doors like in the freezer section so the produce stays fresh longer. I really liked that addition.

They are definitely preparing for battle with Uptown.

It wouldn't surprise me if Homeland announces an upgrade at its 18th and Classen store as soon as a new grocer is announced and not a moment sooner. Homeland seems to work that way, with their remodel at 122nd and Rockwell being a response to the new Sprouts at 122nd and MacArthur.

That is unless their long-term plan is to do away with the 18th and Classen location.

[Brett]

Now that Boulevard Cafeteria has closed, it would be awesome if the existing building could be renovated into a Trader Joes or Sprouts.

[bchris02]

Now that Boulevard Cafeteria has closed, it would be awesome if the existing building could be renovated into a Trader Joes or Sprouts.

I would rather see the existing building torn down and something new built that conformed to urban standards. The Boulevard Cafeteria building is not architecture worth saving and it is not urban. Plus, I don't think its big enough for a full-sized market. I do like the idea though of a grocery store on that lot.

[sooner88]

What is the typical sf for a Trader Joes? Boulevard is a little over 11,000 sf. I've never been in so I have no idea if the layout, etc would work for a grocery store renovation.

[DenverPoke]

From what I remember of visiting DC and San Fran where they have such a large downtown like area I remember grocery stores, drug stores, and even Whole Foods having locations in regular tower like buildings, some stores were even 2-3 stories worth of storefront if the buildings were smaller than their usual footprint. In Spain there is a shopping cart design where the wheels will lock into a flat escalator to keep it from rolling down the steep ramp up. It isn't a matter of finding a location or getting them into an otherwise smaller footprint building, it is convincing them that an urban location is a profitable one.

Agree with this. Most chains won't even consider a location until X number of bodies live within a certain radius. Downtown Denver struggled for years to get a grocery store to consider a location near the CBD. King Soopers only opened earlier this year (a Whole Foods is also currently under construction) and it has taken the recent boom of over 12,000 new units since 2011 in the core to get to the number of bodies they felt comfortable with.

[bchris02]

Agree with this. Most chains won't even consider a location until X number of bodies live within a certain radius. Downtown Denver struggled for years to get a grocery store to consider a location near the CBD. King Soopers only opened earlier this year (a Whole Foods is also currently under construction) and it has taken the recent boom of over 12,000 new units since 2011 in the core to get to the number of bodies they felt comfortable with.

This is true, and why I think at the current time, OKC's best bet is something in Midtown or even a little farther north. Heritage HIlls/Mesta Park surely has enough rooftops to make a grocer viable. Remember that today, there really aren't any good options in the core south of NW Expressway. A quality grocer on Classen or 23rd with easy access from Midtown or downtown would be a huge success.

I think a true downtown grocer in the CBD or in Bricktown is still a ways off.

[oklip955]

What I don't understand is why Walmart Neighborhood is not considering building one in the downtown/Uptown area. It seems that they keep building them so close to their other stores that they are robbing customers from their own nearby stores. I know everyone wants a more up scale store but at least the Walmart would be an up grade over the 18th st Homeland. It would be a good test to see if the area could support a more upscale store. I think that if it were built, the Homeland store would close. (hum maybe a Sprouts would take over the location)

[bchris02]

What I don't understand is why Walmart Neighborhood is not considering building one in the downtown/Uptown area. It seems that they keep building them so close to their other stores that they are robbing customers from their own nearby stores. I know everyone wants a more up scale store but at least the Walmart would be an up grade over the 18th st Homeland. It would be a good test to see if the area could support a more upscale store. I think that if it were built, the Homeland store would close. (hum maybe a Sprouts would take over the location)

As long as they built it to urban standards I could accept this. I don't want Wal-Mart to build its standard big-box format with its sea of surface parking in the middle of downtown or one of OKC's urban districts.

Other cities have shown that Wal-Mart can do good urbanism when they are forced to.

[oklip955]

If Walmart can make money , they can put a few more dollars up front on the store. Same on the Sprouts. They spent a few bucks just to make the 2nd st store in Edmond work. The building was in bad shape. Yah, its not fancy but it works for Edmond. They built the store in Owasso from the ground up. If they took over the 18th st location I would think that they could doze it and start over and have a better store and less headaches.

[bchris02]

Any of these would be very welcome downtown.







I would be STRONGLY opposed to this...

[onthestrip]

The economics simply dont work. And unless the city subsidizes rent or a parking structure, we wont be seeing a grocer downtown soon. There is no large enough space that can charge a low enough rent that grocers are used to paying and still have the land to provide parking for shoppers. It just doesnt add up. For a developer to build a space and provide parking, they would have to get triple or more the rent grocery stores typically pay. And no grocery store will take that risk at this time.

DT residents will just have to utilize Native Roots, Family Dollar, Braums, and Homeland for their food needs.

[bchris02]

The economics simply dont work. And unless the city subsidizes rent or a parking structure, we wont be seeing a grocer downtown soon. There is no large enough space that can charge a low enough rent that grocers are used to paying and still have the land to provide parking for shoppers. It just doesnt add up. For a developer to build a space and provide parking, they would have to get triple or more the rent grocery stores typically pay. And no grocery store will take that risk at this time.

DT residents will just have to utilize Native Roots, Family Dollar, Braums, and Homeland for their food needs.

In the CBD, Bricktown, and Deep Deuce, I agree. Like Denver, I think OKC will need 12,000+ new units before a grocer will consider locating in one of these areas.

However, I don't think its economically unfeasible on 23rd St or on Classen or even on Broadway north of 10th. The right property in Midtown might also be a candidate if the grocer can be a part of a larger mixed-use development.

To put it into perspective, Tulsa has this proposed downtown and they have less rooftops and less development overall than is happening in OKC.



Of course, this development may be in question due to oil prices but to get far enough along to produce this rendering is a sign they have confidence. Why couldn't something like this work in OKC?

[bchris02]

With this development in Tulsa moving forward, is there any hope for a similar development in OKC, even if on a smaller scale?

Development Plans Advance For Downtown Tulsa Parking Lot - NewsOn6.com - Tulsa, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports - KOTV.com |

I really think this is the most exciting development currently happening in the state. It's going to completely change downtown Tulsa. I wish something similar would be proposed here.

[Just the facts]

Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store. Priorities I guess.

[bchris02]

Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store. Priorities I guess.

What's interesting is that grocers keep saying there aren't enough rooftops in downtown OKC to support a grocery store. Tulsa on the other hand has even less rooftops in its downtown proper and has a lot more solid grocery stores in its urban core to compete with than OKC does, and Reasor's thinks this is viable. If Tulsa is ready for this development, OKC is more than ready for something similar downtown, especially considering it wouldn't have any real competition south of NW 50th.

[Pete]

^

The difference is that Reasor's is local in Tulsa and this is probably about doing something for downtown rather than purely profit motivated. It's not a national chain making all their decisions off demographic printouts and by people sitting in some corporate office stacking up the likely profits against hundreds of other potential locations.

The only real local in OKC that is likely to do something similar is Uptown and I think that will happen, just in a couple of years.

[Pete]

Funny we have millions to subsidize multi-million dollar corporations along Memorial, but no money to help establish a downtown grocery store. Priorities I guess.

Somebody has to apply first.

And BTW, there are tons of subsidies in downtown OKC, so I don't understand your point. Far, far more than a few out on Memorial Road.

[Swake]

^

The difference is that Reasor's is local in Tulsa and this is probably about doing something for downtown rather than purely profit motivated. It's not a national chain making all their decisions off demographic printouts and by people sitting in some corporate office stacking up the likely profits against hundreds of other potential locations.

The only real local in OKC that is likely to do something similar is Uptown and I think that will happen, just in a couple of years.

Reasors may also be protecting their turf a bit as they already are the downtown grocery store with their location a mile and a half from downtown in Cherry Street. Opening one actually in downtown stops anyone else from doing it and protects their market share.

And this is years away from happening too. The View, The Edge and Sante Fe Square are all much further along and will all be completed before this project and that's almost 1,000 new units within a few blocks of this proposed store.

[Spartan]

Somebody has to apply first.

And BTW, there are tons of subsidies in downtown OKC, so I don't understand your point. Far, far more than a few out on Memorial Road.

I'm confused. We've made TIF available as an option for gap financing, primarily to cover required structured parking downtown.

We have more than just TIF available for retail on West I-40, Memorial Road, and I-240. Same for the Kings Crossing on MLK. Those are all strip malls and we never really ask for anything in exchange for the subsidy - certainly never any design/plan improvements.

We don't really do retail subsidies downtown. The retail that we have is comprised mostly of locally-owned shops that organically congregated around 9th and Broadway, and NW 16th Street. The ones directly on Broadway have maybe taken advantage of the city's neon sign program, but that's all I can think of for which they may qualify.

What are you talking about? Is there some additional retail effort that I'm not aware of? All I can think of is Bass Pro, which I guess counts. The city's basically doing that for Cabela's.

[Pete]

^

Re-read Kerry's post then mine.


Regarding strictly retail subsidies, the only I am aware of on Memorial road are Cabela's and Von Maur.

Downtown, we gave a big subsidy to Bass Pro and the entire Lower Bricktown development. And the Criterion is getting incentives and so is Steelyard and it's 10,000 SF of retail space.

[Just the facts]

Did the Criterion and Steelyard get a cash subsidy or loans? I honestly don't remember.