2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

[unfundedrick]

you obviously didn't read my post where I recommended the city offer incentive to new routes and to re-establish routes to previously served key hubs. AND I also recommended the city do more than just incentivize OKC residents through advertising, but that we also offer ads to the other end of the route to promote OKC in that market. The incentives could run for a predetermined time or until a market target is met.

the city is not doing this currently, so THAT is my recommendation. clear now?

So you have inside knowledge about what they are doing? They deal with this daily and are well aware of what might work and what won't. And promoting flights to OKC in other cities seems like a big stretch to improve any chance that an airline will add seats. That's what is clear to me.,

[HOT ROD]

there doesn't appear to be any of this taking place, which is why I mentioned it on this public forum in response to your question of what OKC could be doing that they 'apparently' aren't doing.

Promoting flights TO OKC in other cities is exactly what we should be doing with our tax monies. You may not think it makes a difference but I have seen many cities promoted here in Seattle, some smaller than OKC, it's something we could do for a period of time to help re-establish service to, say SFO.

[unfundedrick]

there doesn't appear to be any of this taking place, which is why I mentioned it on this public forum in response to your question of what OKC could be doing that they 'apparently' aren't doing.

Promoting flights TO OKC in other cities is exactly what we should be doing with our tax monies. You may not think it makes a difference but I have seen many cities promoted here in Seattle, some smaller than OKC, it's something we could do for a period of time to help re-establish service to, say SFO.

Well, we'll agree to disagree then. I'll trust the professionals who do this every day versus your casual observations. And if you're saying it would help to promote travel to OKC from other cities when nonstop flights don't currently exist, I think that would be a waste of money to do that to try to convince an airline to reestablish a nonstop flight. People in San Francisco aren't going to see a billboard about OKC and suddenly decide that they want to go. And even if that actually happened the numbers would be minimal. OIKC has previously promoted nonstop flights to other cities here and that makes sense when the flights already exist.

[catch22]

It's not just about getting a city. You have to look at the bigger picture for how it benefits the airline.

SFO: Worked good enough to maintain service on United for over a decade before the pandemic. United's transpacific hub took a complete gutting during the COVID crisis and still has not recovered. Under this same time frame tourism to the Bay Area plummeted upon negative press of homelessness -- now we are seeing a market correction of the tech space. This is no longer a good international market out of OKC, nor a domestic business or leisure market. UA no longer can ride on the "chugging along" of the pre-pandemic economy of the bay area which had tremendous Trans-pacific demand as well as healthy leisure and domestic business demand. Markets like OKC can no longer generate the traffic to SFO on those conditions to be worth 9 hours of aircraft and crew time in an extremely stretched thin resource pool.

BOS: Everyone wants Delta to serve it but let's be realistic they have had bigger fish to fry forever in relation to the OKC market. They have had only a token presence in OKC for as long as I can remember. Service to the hubs on equipment and frequency that adequately serves the market. LGA is the only add they have had in OKC in more than 3 decades, and it's uncertain at this point how committed they are to that.

PDX: Diet San Francisco. A pre-pandemic strong market for Asian demand, and an attractive leisure station. Positioned close to SEA it has long been a relief valve for Alaska's Seattle hub operation. It suffers from all of the same issues as San Francisco but on a proportionate scale. Leisure traffic would be the prime driver of a PDX flight and it would only be likely to happen in lieu of a second SEA flight, or possibly at the expense of the mainline flight to Seattle. I don't see either as incredibly likely at this point in time as it is a long and thin route. Aircraft and crew time at all airlines is at a huge premium and a 9-10 hour chunk of a flight crew and airplane is a huge opportunity cost at any airline. Traffic on this route would consist of a large chunk of low-yield connections. If I am Alaska, do I send an E175 on this route to serve 40 local passengers a day, and fill the other 36 seats with junk fares on low-yield connections to Yakima? I can forget the route all together and use the airplane and crew to make 2 round trips to somewhere closer to PDX. It's a hard sell on the top floor. If the market environment were more favorable it would be a viable route.

JFK: Every airport wants these 3 letters in their portfolio. Servicing this route requires a VERY strong international demand for a certain partner airline or certain routes over the pond. This is a route where you bypass DFW or ATL to get on a partner airline to Rome, Moscow, or any number of European business destinations where club access and schedule are the only important factors. Price is no object. Not going to happen for OKC.

What else is really left? OKC is incredibly well serves to all of the major cities in the country. The equipment or times may not be 100% ideal but you can get to most of the major airports nonstop on a major air carrier. Things can always be better but I really fail to see any huge holes that aren't typical for an airport the size of OKC.

[BG918]

I’ve wondered if Southwest would ever try a couple California routes like OAK, where they have a sizable operation, or LAX to compete with American. I noticed COS recently picked up LGB on Southwest.

[brianinok]

SFO: Worked good enough to maintain service on United for over a decade before the pandemic. United's transpacific hub took a complete gutting during the COVID crisis and still has not recovered. Under this same time frame tourism to the Bay Area plummeted upon negative press of homelessness -- now we are seeing a market correction of the tech space. This is no longer a good international market out of OKC, nor a domestic business or leisure market. UA no longer can ride on the "chugging along" of the pre-pandemic economy of the bay area which had tremendous Trans-pacific demand as well as healthy leisure and domestic business demand. Markets like OKC can no longer generate the traffic to SFO on those conditions to be worth 9 hours of aircraft and crew time in an extremely stretched thin resource pool.

catch, not questioning you at all, just curious. What other domestic cities have lost their long-standing SFO service and still do not have it back like OKC has? There are obviously lots of cities that don't have SFO service (it was never as big a domestic hub as DEN or ORD). Did cities like MEM and SAT have service pre-Covid? They don't seem to have it now. Places like OMA and ABQ do have SFO service back. Just curiosity.

[catch22]

I know OMA did. ABQ. MCI and STL just got theirs back (on UA). I think DSM and ICT were announced to start before the pandemic and never materialized, and hasn’t ever started.

I don’t think MEM had SFO but SAT did.

[Richard at Remax]

It's not just about getting a city. You have to look at the bigger picture for how it benefits the airline.

SFO: Worked good enough to maintain service on United for over a decade before the pandemic. United's transpacific hub took a complete gutting during the COVID crisis and still has not recovered. Under this same time frame tourism to the Bay Area plummeted upon negative press of homelessness -- now we are seeing a market correction of the tech space. This is no longer a good international market out of OKC, nor a domestic business or leisure market. UA no longer can ride on the "chugging along" of the pre-pandemic economy of the bay area which had tremendous Trans-pacific demand as well as healthy leisure and domestic business demand. Markets like OKC can no longer generate the traffic to SFO on those conditions to be worth 9 hours of aircraft and crew time in an extremely stretched thin resource pool.

BOS: Everyone wants Delta to serve it but let's be realistic they have had bigger fish to fry forever in relation to the OKC market. They have had only a token presence in OKC for as long as I can remember. Service to the hubs on equipment and frequency that adequately serves the market. LGA is the only add they have had in OKC in more than 3 decades, and it's uncertain at this point how committed they are to that.

PDX: Diet San Francisco. A pre-pandemic strong market for Asian demand, and an attractive leisure station. Positioned close to SEA it has long been a relief valve for Alaska's Seattle hub operation. It suffers from all of the same issues as San Francisco but on a proportionate scale. Leisure traffic would be the prime driver of a PDX flight and it would only be likely to happen in lieu of a second SEA flight, or possibly at the expense of the mainline flight to Seattle. I don't see either as incredibly likely at this point in time as it is a long and thin route. Aircraft and crew time at all airlines is at a huge premium and a 9-10 hour chunk of a flight crew and airplane is a huge opportunity cost at any airline. Traffic on this route would consist of a large chunk of low-yield connections. If I am Alaska, do I send an E175 on this route to serve 40 local passengers a day, and fill the other 36 seats with junk fares on low-yield connections to Yakima? I can forget the route all together and use the airplane and crew to make 2 round trips to somewhere closer to PDX. It's a hard sell on the top floor. If the market environment were more favorable it would be a viable route.

JFK: Every airport wants these 3 letters in their portfolio. Servicing this route requires a VERY strong international demand for a certain partner airline or certain routes over the pond. This is a route where you bypass DFW or ATL to get on a partner airline to Rome, Moscow, or any number of European business destinations where club access and schedule are the only important factors. Price is no object. Not going to happen for OKC.

What else is really left? OKC is incredibly well serves to all of the major cities in the country. The equipment or times may not be 100% ideal but you can get to most of the major airports nonstop on a major air carrier. Things can always be better but I really fail to see any huge holes that aren't typical for an airport the size of OKC.

Personally I'd like to see:

1) SFO back but on Alaska for OneWorld options. Prob not on their radar but would be cool as an AA member.

2) AA add PHL back for more options going to Europe, esp if JFK isn't an option. Granted not having JFK doesn't bother me too much cause you can still fly into LGA and get to JFK. A little tedious but nothing overwhelming. Helps that the OKC to LGA flight is really early to give you time to get there. (side note, I did see in Sept that there are two nonstop flights to LGA now from OKC (6am & 4:15pm). I don't know if that's seasonal or not but a nice option if you don't want to wake up at dark thirty)

3) Either SWA, Frontier, or Allegiant add a flight to Cancun. 2 times a week service that's seasonal.

[shai2022]

It's not just about getting a city. You have to look at the bigger picture for how it benefits the airline.

SFO: Worked good enough to maintain service on United for over a decade before the pandemic. United's transpacific hub took a complete gutting during the COVID crisis and still has not recovered. Under this same time frame tourism to the Bay Area plummeted upon negative press of homelessness -- now we are seeing a market correction of the tech space. This is no longer a good international market out of OKC, nor a domestic business or leisure market. UA no longer can ride on the "chugging along" of the pre-pandemic economy of the bay area which had tremendous Trans-pacific demand as well as healthy leisure and domestic business demand. Markets like OKC can no longer generate the traffic to SFO on those conditions to be worth 9 hours of aircraft and crew time in an extremely stretched thin resource pool.

BOS: Everyone wants Delta to serve it but let's be realistic they have had bigger fish to fry forever in relation to the OKC market. They have had only a token presence in OKC for as long as I can remember. Service to the hubs on equipment and frequency that adequately serves the market. LGA is the only add they have had in OKC in more than 3 decades, and it's uncertain at this point how committed they are to that.

PDX: Diet San Francisco. A pre-pandemic strong market for Asian demand, and an attractive leisure station. Positioned close to SEA it has long been a relief valve for Alaska's Seattle hub operation. It suffers from all of the same issues as San Francisco but on a proportionate scale. Leisure traffic would be the prime driver of a PDX flight and it would only be likely to happen in lieu of a second SEA flight, or possibly at the expense of the mainline flight to Seattle. I don't see either as incredibly likely at this point in time as it is a long and thin route. Aircraft and crew time at all airlines is at a huge premium and a 9-10 hour chunk of a flight crew and airplane is a huge opportunity cost at any airline. Traffic on this route would consist of a large chunk of low-yield connections. If I am Alaska, do I send an E175 on this route to serve 40 local passengers a day, and fill the other 36 seats with junk fares on low-yield connections to Yakima? I can forget the route all together and use the airplane and crew to make 2 round trips to somewhere closer to PDX. It's a hard sell on the top floor. If the market environment were more favorable it would be a viable route.

JFK: Every airport wants these 3 letters in their portfolio. Servicing this route requires a VERY strong international demand for a certain partner airline or certain routes over the pond. This is a route where you bypass DFW or ATL to get on a partner airline to Rome, Moscow, or any number of European business destinations where club access and schedule are the only important factors. Price is no object. Not going to happen for OKC.

What else is really left? OKC is incredibly well serves to all of the major cities in the country. The equipment or times may not be 100% ideal but you can get to most of the major airports nonstop on a major air carrier. Things can always be better but I really fail to see any huge holes that aren't typical for an airport the size of OKC.

American serves Louisville - Boston and also Memphis - Boston. Similar markets. Maybe they would add that route if Delta wont.

[Celebrator]

American serves Louisville - Boston and also Memphis - Boston. Similar markets. Maybe they would add that route if Delta wont.

Fascinating that they serve BOS from those two similar-sized markets. However, I wonder if YUM Brands being in SDF and FedEx (both huge global companies) being in MEM have something to do with that--even though those metros are similar in size to OKC. Also, they are just that much closer (about 60 minutes of flight time) to BOS, and perhaps that falls more into line with aircraft/crew utilization criteria for AA. As I said upthread, if we were further east geographically, given our size, I bet we would have BOS already. Are there any metros to our east of similar size that DON'T have BOS service? Would be interesting to find out.

[chssooner]

Fascinating that they serve BOS from those two similar-sized markets. However, I wonder if YUM Brands being in SDF and FedEx (both huge global companies) being in MEM have something to do with that--even though those metros are similar in size to OKC. Also, they are just that much closer (about 60 minutes of flight time) to BOS, and perhaps that falls more into line with aircraft/crew utilization criteria for AA. As I said upthread, if we were further east geographically, given our size, I bet we would have BOS already. Are there any metros to our east of similar size that DON'T have BOS service? Would be interesting to find out.

The distance is the likely factor. I don't think those companies are as massive, from a corporate standpoint, in Boston to make that a necessary flight.

[shai2022]

Almost feels like Delta is piggy-backing off a bunch of these new American routes between smaller markets. They are adding a Little Rock - LGA nonstop to compete with American there. We have the same American non-stops as Louisville outside of Boston and Philly.

[HOT ROD]

catch, I (and others) obviuosly appreciate your knowledge and insight into United and airline operations. By no means was I discounting your knowledge or expertise, I was only suggesting OKC could do to possibly incentivise route we used to have and possible new ones. This is what Wichita is doing, and while I dont think we have to go as far as them, it might be a good idea to incentivise for a short period to help restore what we had. That was my thought not discounting the economics or real realities going on at United.

One thing that irks me is that we have daily OKC-SEA on Alaska mainline (not a low-cost/uccc) and it is very successful/full (and was pre-pandemic as well, even had twice daily MAINLINE) in addition to daily UA to SFO but can not restore SFO - a much bigger market/hub/airport than SEA. Don'tt get me wrong, the OKC-SEA service benefits me personally since I live in Seattle and have expat ties to OKC, but I still don't get the SFO argument when smaller cities/markets have been restored/started. Even a united express flight would be a start, perhaps we could incentive for a period.

Anyway - just thoughts.

[chssooner]

catch, I (and others) obviuosly appreciate your knowledge and insight into United and airline operations. By no means was I discounting your knowledge or expertise, I was only suggesting OKC could do to possibly incentivise route we used to have and possible new ones. This is what Wichita is doing, and while I dont think we have to go as far as them, it might be a good idea to incentivise for a short period to help restore what we had. That was my thought not discounting the economics or real realities going on at United.

One thing that irks me is that we have daily OKC-SEA on Alaska mainline (not a low-cost/uccc) and it is very successful/full (and was pre-pandemic as well, even had twice daily MAINLINE) in addition to daily UA to SFO but can not restore SFO - a much bigger market/hub/airport than SEA. Don'tt get me wrong, the OKC-SEA service benefits me personally since I live in Seattle and have expat ties to OKC, but I still don't get the SFO argument when smaller cities/markets have been restored/started. Even a united express flight would be a start, perhaps we could incentive for a period.

Anyway - just thoughts.

That is what OKC had, a United Express flight to SFO.

[warreng88]

Question from an airline ignorant person: Assuming an airline sees steady traffic from one city to another (let's take AA OKC-LGA, for example), typically, what is their process for increasing the frequency of travel? Do they go to a larger plane? Pick another date? Increase number of routes? Any help would be appreciated.

[s00nr1]

EWR/IAD are massive holes for OKC United fliers. Would love to get one of those 2 back.

[catch22]

That is what OKC had, a United Express flight to SFO.

Alaska has no choice but to fly to their strongest hub (which they cater pretty highly to tourism and domestic connections to Alaska and the PNW) if they want to serve OKC. United can route SFO passengers and PNW connections through existing DEN flights. UA's presence in OKC is frustrating for sure. Believe me, there's plenty of criticism I can dish out too -- but for the most part, the reasons make business sense on the anemic presence.

Delta and United offer similar capacity and are targeting much the same travelers -- both are skewing towards a premium business traveler, which let's face it OKC has very few of relatively. (Granted their 50-seat offerings in OKC are subpar for any demographic). United targets south and west out of OKC, while Delta is targeting south and east. American has found a good balance of value for the OKC business and leisure traveler and seems to have found the market sweet spot for OKC based travelers. Their product is OK enough for the business traveler when considering their route map and nonstop offerings from OKC, and their budget product seem to offer enough value to the leisure market. I think that is why we have seen them expand at the expense of DL and UA. There's just not enough of a premium-pie to split between DL and UA when AA offers enough to capture a big share. Delta and United both seem uninterested in leisure travelers so they don't really offer too much except for some Mexico connections via IAH and Florida via ATL. They rather carry more business travelers in stronger business markets than fight for leisure travelers out of OKC.

In more United news, OKC is a new station for the pretty much non-reported ex-AA Mesa CRJ-900's coming onto the United property in a few weeks. These clapped out, worn down CRJ-900's will be replacing the very popular and comfortable E175 on OKC-IAH and OKC-DEN routes. Houston first, Denver summer. Not sure on exact frequencies but I saw a bulletin about OKC being one of the stations. Enjoy!

[brianinok]

Alaska has no choice but to fly to their strongest hub (which they cater pretty highly to tourism and domestic connections to Alaska and the PNW) if they want to serve OKC. United can route SFO passengers and PNW connections through existing DEN flights. UA's presence in OKC is frustrating for sure. Believe me, there's plenty of criticism I can dish out too -- but for the most part, the reasons make business sense on the anemic presence.

Delta and United offer similar capacity and are targeting much the same travelers -- both are skewing towards a premium business traveler, which let's face it OKC has very few of relatively. (Granted their 50-seat offerings in OKC are subpar for any demographic). United targets south and west out of OKC, while Delta is targeting south and east. American has found a good balance of value for the OKC business and leisure traveler and seems to have found the market sweet spot for OKC based travelers. Their product is OK enough for the business traveler when considering their route map and nonstop offerings from OKC, and their budget product seem to offer enough value to the leisure market. I think that is why we have seen them expand at the expense of DL and UA. There's just not enough of a premium-pie to split between DL and UA when AA offers enough to capture a big share. Delta and United both seem uninterested in leisure travelers so they don't really offer too much except for some Mexico connections via IAH and Florida via ATL. They rather carry more business travelers in stronger business markets than fight for leisure travelers out of OKC.

In more United news, OKC is a new station for the pretty much non-reported ex-AA Mesa CRJ-900's coming onto the United property in a few weeks. These clapped out, worn down CRJ-900's will be replacing the very popular and comfortable E175 on OKC-IAH and OKC-DEN routes. Houston first, Denver summer. Not sure on exact frequencies but I saw a bulletin about OKC being one of the stations. Enjoy!

catch, OKC continues its downgrade of United service with these CRJ-900s. On the flip side, United is very proud of how many new mainline aircraft they are adding to their fleet. What is your assessment of when or if this will ever trickle down to OKC? We used to have consistent mainline service to DEN and IAH, even if it was only once or twice a day. It was there-- year around. Now we are lucky if one market has a mainline part of the year. And it looks like E-175s (mainline-lite) will be hard to find. At least Delta flies mainline to ATL. You can count on it. And AA to DFW and CLT too.

[catch22]

This year's delivery schedule is something ridiculous like 3 new airplanes a week for most of the year. Of course, some airplanes will be leaving the fleet, some airplanes will be going into much-needed maintenance from running a stretched fleet for so long, and some airplanes will "go away" as schedules get padded a bit more. So not all of it is 100% growth metal. But that is still very significant. I would expect many routes across the network to get some attention. These days I will be working a flight and say to myself "we fly mainline there now?", a lot. So it's starting to happen...

[LakeEffect]

In more United news, OKC is a new station for the pretty much non-reported ex-AA Mesa CRJ-900's coming onto the United property in a few weeks. These clapped out, worn down CRJ-900's will be replacing the very popular and comfortable E175 on OKC-IAH and OKC-DEN routes. Houston first, Denver summer. Not sure on exact frequencies but I saw a bulletin about OKC being one of the stations. Enjoy!

Replacing a CRJ-200 with a CRJ-900 - good. Replacing an E175 with a CRJ-900 bad. Crappy choice for OKC... https://onemileatatime.com/news/unit...-mesa-crj-900/

On your Delta comments - I wish Delta would care just a little bit more... a daily flight or two to LAX would be huge.

[BG918]

Kansas City's new terminal officially opened today. Pics here: https://thepointsguy.com/news/kansas...terminal-tour/

I'm flying Southwest from TUL to PIT in May and have a 1.5 hour layover in STL. With the new terminal I would much rather connect at MCI. Hoping once Southwest gets to around 100 daily departures that they add back some regional connections to OKC, TUL, LIT and DSM.

[fortpatches]

Kansas City's new terminal officially opened today. Pics here: https://thepointsguy.com/news/kansas...terminal-tour/

I'm flying Southwest from TUL to PIT in May and have a 1.5 hour layover in STL. With the new terminal I would much rather connect at MCI. Hoping once Southwest gets to around 100 daily departures that they add back some regional connections to OKC, TUL, LIT and DSM.

A much needed upgrade! When I lived there, I voted for it. I don't remember anyone in my groups that was against upgrading the airport. I am glad it is finally complete.

[Will Dearborn]

catch, OKC continues its downgrade of United service with these CRJ-900s. On the flip side, United is very proud of how many new mainline aircraft they are adding to their fleet. What is your assessment of when or if this will ever trickle down to OKC? We used to have consistent mainline service to DEN and IAH, even if it was only once or twice a day. It was there-- year around. Now we are lucky if one market has a mainline part of the year. And it looks like E-175s (mainline-lite) will be hard to find. At least Delta flies mainline to ATL. You can count on it. And AA to DFW and CLT too.

2A on a 175 was probably the best ride on United that wasn't Polaris.

Losing SFO and IAD ex-OKC was a killer for me, I moved to AA (and Alaska) and haven't looked back.

[shai2022]

"Midsized and underserved cities
With the above in mind, we have looked at a sample of 34 midsized US cities with metro populations of roughly one to two million (and some other ones for fun).

While extraordinarily straightforward, for this article total seats at each airport last year were related to metro population, while GDP per capita was considered.

Some very fast-growing airports had very high seats to population, such as Charleston (7x more seats than population), Austin (9x), San Jose (10x), Nashville (11x), Raleigh Durham (12x), New Orleans (14x).

In contrast, multiple airports had just 3x to 4x seats to population, well below the average of 6x. These include the likes of Norfolk, Rochester, Providence, Albany, Tulsa, Birmingham, Oklahoma City, Little Rock, Grand Rapids, Louisville, Richmond, and Tulsa.

Others were 5x, including Memphis, San Antonio, Cincinnati, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Omaha, Buffalo, Milwaukee, and Hartford.

All of these would have even lower scores – and therefore be even less served – if hub seats were removed.

Of course, airports may be underserved for a reason, but in most places globally they offer a good opportunity – with the right fares, capacity, timings, and promotions – to launch multiple new leisure-focused routes that are easy to stimulate."

https://www.anna.aero/2020/08/07/bre...zed-us-cities/

[Jake]

Tulsa is apparently so underserved they listed them twice.