Should City look at other options for the Convention Center?

[Laramie]

Expand the current Cox Convention & Ford Centers making them one complex:

Looking at the fact that they are no concrete plans for the new convention center why not look at expanding the Cox Convention Center and gutting out the lower bowl tier arena and having more expanded convention exhibition space?

Build on the site we currently have and join the Cox Convention & Ford Center together as one complex:

The Great Arena (Old Myriad) could be downsized to seat 9,000-11,000 on its current upper level and the other improvements to the Ford Center could be done--expanding the seating to 20,000 instead of 18,300?

I believe that $280 million has been designated for the new convention center.

Do you think that we will be able to collect that much tax (projected) over the seven year period in which sales taxes will be collected?

What are some of the problems with looking at an alternative plan? Please sound off:

[Popsy]

It would probably save money to expand it, but there are problems in doing it. The most natural way to increase it's size would be to expand to the east by taking out EK Gaylord and the Sante Fe Depot, expanding to the tracks. If however you mention taking out Sante Fe Depot the preservationists would be all over it like flies on a cow patty.

[progressiveboy]

I personally think they should build a new Convention center and perhaps find an adaptive reuse for the Myriad. The people voted for a new convention center so people should not even entertain the thought of having to renege on a commitment.The will of the voters have alreadly decided this issue and to go back on their promise and not follow through would not be in the best interest for the citizens of OKC.

[mugofbeer]

Right now, the city has decided that they like having the 2 arenas next to each other. For the Big 12 Basketball purposes, this makes OKC a very attractive rotational member. KC can offer 2 arenas in close proximity but not across the street from each other as ours are.

My prediction, however, is that eventually the Cox Center will be taken down or completely redone in some way and another convention center will be built elsewhere.

[Spartan]

It would probably save money to expand it, but there are problems in doing it. The most natural way to increase it's size would be to expand to the east by taking out EK Gaylord and the Sante Fe Depot, expanding to the tracks. If however you mention taking out Sante Fe Depot the preservationists would be all over it like flies on a cow patty.

I like your thinking. EKG is wide enough that you wouldn't really need to touch the depot. The depot is located diagonally from the Ford Center so it's not really in the way either. There are some interesting opportunities to do an intermodal transit center converging the different transit types in OKC in one facility, with AMTRAK, streetcar, city bus, and more..and it could be OKC's "grand central station" that connects to the Ford and Cox. There could be a new leg of the Bricktown canal that goes through it as well, fulfilling the Bricktown Association's wish to be more connected to what's across the tracks.

[metro]

Have any of you folks been to a modern convention center, most people in this City don't even understand what a modern convention center is.

[NickFiggins]

Have any of you folks been to a modern convention center, most people in this City don't even understand what a modern convention center is.

Uh a good example is DC's convention center. The place is massive. They have rooms big enough for a dinner with 8000 people. They have hundreds of meeting rooms from small to midsize to large, to very large ball rooms and exhibit space. Another key of the DC convention center is that it spans 3 blocks but instead of closing streets they build meeting space on the bridges over the streets. There are seamless and flexible and quite frankly the only direction that would actually provide adequate space would be to head over to the Myriad Gardens....

Cox is way behind the curve. The arena in cox should be kept, as the new convention center won't have/doesn't need and arena as modern convention centers have more flexible meeting space and the few conventions that need an arena can use the ford center.

Its time for a new modern convention center.

[kevinpate]

I personally think they should build a new Convention center and perhaps find an adaptive reuse for the Myriad. The people voted for a new convention center so people should not even entertain the thought of having to renege on a commitment.The will of the voters have alreadly decided this issue and to go back on their promise and not follow through would not be in the best interest for the citizens of OKC.

Not a resident myself, but given all the discussion prior to the vote, I'm reasonably certain the phrase convention center was not part of the ballot voted on last December.

As it was one of, if not the, the least desired project of the topics discussed, I doubt the masses truly care if it gets built or not.

All that aside, it's probably a good idea to go forward with a cc that will attract new business to the metro and help DT retain its existing convention business.

[Larry OKC]

kevinpate: You are correct on all counts. None of the proposed MAPS 3 projects were mentioned on the ballot or the ordinance. What people voted for/against was the collection of a 1 cent tax over 7 years and nine months. The money is in theory only to be spent on "capital improvements". However, that term as defined in the ordinance means it can be spent on just about anything. Of course we have promises and assurances that they will be spent on the proposed projects, but there is nothing legally binding them to do so. We just have to trust them to keep their word.

[progressiveboy]

Not a resident myself, but given all the discussion prior to the vote, I'm reasonably certain the phrase convention center was not part of the ballot voted on last December.

As it was one of, if not the, the least desired project of the topics discussed, I doubt the masses truly care if it gets built or not.

All that aside, it's probably a good idea to go forward with a cc that will attract new business to the metro and help DT retain its existing convention business.

Disagree. "This was on the ballot". The point is that MAPS 3 did pass and the will of the people spoke by voting. Do you have documentation to back up your claim?

[kevinpate]

Disagree. "This was on the ballot". The point is that MAPS 3 did pass and the will of the people spoke by voting. Do you have documentation to back up your claim?

Well, let's see.

There's the actual ballot language to approve or disapprove a new ordinance. The language does not include the phrase convention center.

There's the actual language of the ordinance which went into effect after the election. This language also does not include the phrase convention center.

You may be recalling a council resolution, which referenced the council's "present intent" to expend funds on a list of projects contained in an exhibit A.

The Exhibit A to the resolution on present intent and in some pro M3 campaign fodder is where one will find a reference to a convention center.

The people voted on establishing an ordinance to collect a 1% sales tax for X years for capital improvements. They have no direct voice or ability to will exhibit A into a stone carving for those specific projects to be built. That will be the function of the council as time goes by.

The project list is only valid for as long as today's council, or their replacements down the road, decide it is valid. The list could change come fall, or come 2016. Indeed, those who do not wish a convention center could make it their rally cry to oust members at election times and then have a new council makeup express a new "present intent".

So, no, convention center was not on the ballot.

Again, I hope the city does get its convention center. I believe it to be beneficial to OKC and the surrounding cities as well. I hope the city gets all its projects from that list for that matter.

But in truth, hope is all anyone has at this time. The timeframe spans 7+ years and some projects are seen as less important than others to John Q.

Recognizing that much could happen regarding Exhibit A doesn't mean I want to see it happen.

[andy157]

I personally think they should build a new Convention center and perhaps find an adaptive reuse for the Myriad. The people voted for a new convention center so people should not even entertain the thought of having to renege on a commitment.The will of the voters have alreadly decided this issue and to go back on their promise and not follow through would not be in the best interest for the citizens of OKC.

Although I agree with you 100%, it's not like they(the City) have not renege numerus times on the will of the people regarding tax and bond funded projects.

[pw405]

With the new John Q. Hammonds Convention Center/Embassy suites in Norman, do you think the metro area could experience some canibilization with so many convention centers? I was in that place for a focus group and it is MOST impressive - not world class, but certainly one hell of a place! Its only a year old too.

Do we have that many conventions here? If we got E3 & CES here,,, wow! It just seems like of all the things OKC could benefit from - a new convention center does not really excite me. At all.

[rcjunkie]

Although I agree with you 100%, it's not like they(the City) have not renege numerus times on the will of the people regarding tax and bond funded projects.

[Spartan]

Have any of you folks been to a modern convention center, most people in this City don't even understand what a modern convention center is.

Well, do you have any thoughts on the issue metro?

[andy157]

Please??? Please what? Are you asking me to please once again prove that, (A) you simply don't have a clue. Or, (B) if you do, you simply don't know what to do with it. Or (C) you don't pay attention. Or (D), you just enjoy arguing and don't mind being wrong and looking foolish while doing so.

[mugofbeer]

I would be willing to bet that since the crash of 2008 and with the progression of new technology, the type, size and scope of conventions and expo's has changed significantly. I wonder if building huge expanses of exhibition space is really needed as much or if other CC configurations would better match the industry for 2012 and beyond?

[rcjunkie]

Please??? Please what? Are you asking me to please once again prove that, (A) you simply don't have a clue. Or, (B) if you do, you simply don't know what to do with it. Or (C) you don't pay attention. Or (D), you just enjoy arguing and don't mind being wrong and looking foolish while doing so.

None of the above. As for looking foolish, your constant whining about how the City has misspent funds, lied, or illegally used money intended for public safety, I would say you have that category locked up my friend.

I don't argue and I realize you don't like and your not use to having anyone disagree with your views and opinions, but thats life.

[Larry OKC]

Disagree. "This was on the ballot". The point is that MAPS 3 did pass and the will of the people spoke by voting. Do you have documentation to back up your claim?

As kevinpate pointed out, the Convention Center was NOT on the ballot.

Courtesy of Doug, here is the complete text of the Ballot (scroll to the bottom), Ordinance and the infamous Resolution of Intent/Exhibit A (but remember, there is nothing in the Ballot/Ordinance linking it to the Resolution). The Resolution is non-binding and can be changed by this or any future Council by a simple majority vote of 5 members.

http://www.dougloudenback.com/oklaho...ldocuments.htm

[andy157]

None of the above. As for looking foolish, your constant whining about how the City has misspent funds, lied, or illegally used money intended for public safety, I would say you have that category locked up my friend.

I don't argue and I realize you don't like and your not use to having anyone disagree with your views and opinions, but thats life.

For you to equate my comments that are based on facts, when theres documented proof of misspent tax revenue to support my comments, revenue which has been generated by a vote of the people to nothing more than my foolish constant whinning irregardless of the intended public function shows which one of us has the mentality of a fool my freind.

[Of Sound Mind]

We need a new convention center AND we need to keep the current Cox Convention Center. If you've ever tried to book large meeting space, you'll discover that the options are VERY limited and the availability is even worse.

Additionally, attracting convention business is the best way to bring new/outside money into the city, the best kind of revenue any city can ask for.

The OKC CVB is doing a decent job attracting more events, but they're restricted by what we have available. And when they are successful bringing in these conventions and large events, then opportunities for local companies to rent large amounts of meeting space for their own events becomes very difficult and frustrating. A new convention center would allow the CVB to more aggressively pursue more and larger events and conventions as well as allow local companies and organizations the opportunity to utilize the space they're needing for their own functions.

[BigD Misey]

This is: Know your competition 101.
Although not a regular conventioneer, I can certainly tell you that OKC will NOT wrestle away large draw conventions with an expansion and renovation of the COX Center. The Convention Centers in Las Vegas, Orlando, Denver, Chicago, San Diego, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Philadelphia, Phoenix and New York have a combination of elements that attract PEOPLE. People WANT to go there! The facilities are far superior and much larger, the Hotels Grandiose and the attractions well known (With Indy and Phoenix pulling up the rear). Those are the two targets in my mind. Phoenix and Indy. What can OKC do to take some of their meal tickets? Indy I think is target #1. The north is hard hit and will make terrific deals right now with the economy hurting, but with the right plan with a modern feel and quality hotels I think OKC can do well. I think with the SWA hub being in Phoenix, it would be a little tougher. Now can OKC pull off, not only a world class Convention Center but also a world class... something else in combination with it? I think that is the question.
With Las Vegas, Orlando, Denver, Chicago, San Diego, NY and Philly I think the attractions speak for themselves. Mountains, beaches, Broadway and other shows, historical sites...etc. Can OKC develop a world class something along those lines, and how soon would it reach that status.
I live in Dallas. Again, I'm not an expert on the matter, but I don't see HOW Dallas can be more that a tier 2 city for conventions. Here the Convention center seems difficult to navigate and the attractions are a bit away (Arlington) but still accessible. But world class hotels out the wazzoo! I haven't been to conventions in H-town or Austin or San Antonio, but each of these towns has multiple attractions that just don’t exist in all of OK. Think how fast Bossier City was put on the map for conventions with their shows and Casinos! It developed quickly, in less than 10 years it practically became a tier 2 convention city. I'm not suggesting that is the formula, just saying it can happen with the right plan, the right hotels and the right attractions.
Can Core to Shore include a World Class PGA Golf Course? Would Universal Studios consider a smaller version of what they have in Orlando or California? Years ago, Orlando wasn’t on the map until about 1965. Disney saw opportunity... the land was much like Oklahoma’s - flat and nothing notable, cheap land and the climate similar to Oklahoma's. But in a few years, people were flocking to Orlando by millions per year. Some entrepreneur will need to do the same thing in OKC, take a chance. With the energy and devotion and vision of those in place right now, I see this as a serious possibility if OKC commits to its plan. The new Convention Center is the keystone, the catalyst that may cause the developers to move. And, frankly, I think the reward WILL follow.

[rcjunkie]

For you to equate my comments that are based on facts, when theres documented proof of misspent tax revenue to support my comments, revenue which has been generated by a vote of the people to nothing more than my foolish constant whinning irregardless of the intended public function shows which one of us has the mentality of a fool my freind.

I apoligize for under estimating your vast knowledge of how the City of OKC's budget works, can you ever forgive me. What would we ever do without your knowledge and input. (other then get correct facts)

[Laramie]

I realize now that we probably need a new convention center because if we put it in the right place--hotels and other establishments are going to spring up around it. As one reader mentioned about the new amenities that are apart of new convention center complexes being developed throughout the country, we need to keep updated.

Our central location (I-35 north/south corridors--Texas-Minnesota) and I-40 east/west corridors--east coast to west coast) places us in the middle of the country. Conventioneers are burned out on Dallas, St. Louis & Kansas City.

We are in a great position to become a convention destination!

My orignial question had to do with the street where "Thunder Alley" exists--possibly being closed and the Ford Center and Cox Convention Center being made one complex. This wouldn't afford new hotels coming in closer to the complex; however, the Sheraton could be expanded to 30-plus stories with 600-750 rooms. The Old City Rescue Mission complex (off Robinson--adjacent west of the Ford Center) would be great for a new large 600-1,000 room hotel-convention center complex.

I haven't been able to find a pic; however, I remember a drawing in the Oklahoman sometime in the 80's where they were looking at expanding the then Sheraton-Century Center to 30-stories (that was when we only had one first class hotel downtown--post Biltmore demolition).

I hope that we can get all of the proposed items on the MAPS 3 list built and financed without having to go to the voters for an extension.

[BigD Misey]

Having said what i said earlier, the combination of the Cox and Ford center offers a unique benefit for multiple venue needs. Right off top of my head, the Big12 tourney can hold mens and womens Basketball tourneys right next to each other, which is cost effective for media, the confrence and schools. Same with baseball and softball (Within a few short miles). Now with river sports. I dont think Tulsa can offer this unique advantage but Dallas definitely can.
So, I think leaving the Cox center is a good idea because it keeps OKC in the running with Dallas and KC. Just making the exterior into retail space would make a huge difference though in the overall experience. I'm thinking specifically about everything surrounding the AA center in dallas. Loads of retail and Hotels. Think about the 1000 plus people that were outside the Ford center for the playoffs. What if the west side of the Cox Center was converted to a courtyard type area flanked by a couple of retail shoppes/bistro's open to the courtyard with a big screen similar to what was in thunder alley. I think that would be a better use of the thousands of square feet than the current use. Provided of course the New Convention center was built.